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4 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Sure looks to me like it could be her, Bart. Animated GIF below...

sanders-pm.gif

The hairline and body shape are pretty spot on.

 

 

You got that right Mike, by being spot on, you just made a mistake with that GIF.

The correct GIF is below. Indeed spot on for LHO.

Sanders-PM-LHO.gif?dl=0

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Posted (edited)

Well, the point is that Pauline Saunders which Linda and Bart introduced in this thread stands at her spot in the east part of the doorway in Darnell, and at the same time, Prayer Man is seen at his usual spot. So, why overlaying this short lady (Pauline Saunders) over Prayer Man if it was impossible for her to be Prayer Man, just because she stands somewhere else?

detailedframes.jpg?w=1024&h=512

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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Posted (edited)

Exactly Andrej, fear has crept in at the 'others' simply because the jig is up. Even Doyle's so called picture of Stanton kills of his own deluded pet theory. No way with those bingo wings and that hair cut. Funny how Doyle has shot himself in the foot with his uncredible "discovery"

 

Edited by Bart Kamp

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Posted (edited)
On 5/31/2018 at 3:56 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Linda posted another of her discoveries on Find A Grave, this time on Mrs. Sarah Stanton: 

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/152413470/sarah-juanita-stanton#view-photo=170506335

152413470_38e6850e-d019-4d48-9897-7651de834888.png

 

Linda was not sure if the two pictures referred to Sarah or Sarah's sister Wanda, or each of two pictures to one of the sisters. The lady in the right-hand picture seems to wear glasses which causes her eyes not having the right shape.

I have compared the lady in the right-hand picture with a lady seen in Willis 8. The lady is chatting with a man in a white shirt and is tall enough to be able to see over his shoulder. The facial features of Willis8 lady and the lady which Linda tentatively identified as possibly Mrs. Stanton are remarkably similar - the haircut, the backward positioned mouth, protruding chin and eyes covered with a rounded area which could be sunglasses.  The partial face of a person which I think can be seen in Altgens6  (top right) would match this lady's forehead and the overall body height. If the lady in Willis8 is the same lady as Linda showed in Find A Grave, we know how Mrs. Stanton was dressed on that fateful Friday, her body height and her facial features.

mrsstanton_willis_fag.jpg?w=768

 

The lady in Find A Grave pictures and the Willis8 lady both show a big smile. This is a bit surprising in the Willis picture which was taken during the time when people already knew that the President has been shot. 

 

 

 

Hello, Andrej - FYI,  i removed those 2 photos of Sarah Stanton you have posted above (with the glasses) a couple of days ago.  When i posted them i was not 100%  certain it was her and  i only left them up for a day before removing them. My idea was that a family member or friend of the family might contact me and say they were not her, if indeed they were not her.   I am confident of the child photo of Stanton and her brothers and sister, that i posted on her memorial, however.

I had been researching Stanton for 2 years off and an and had gotten nowhere until i redoubled my efforts in the last couple of weeks. In frustration, I finally shelled out big bucks for subscriptions to Ancestry.com, Archive.com, Newspapers.com NewspaperArchive.com, GenealogyBank.com etc...I connected up all her close family's findagrave memorials and created several of their memorials myself, loading them all up with photos, obits and census data etc...that i had found. After days of virtually sleepless, nonstop genealogical research, i  tracked down Mrs. Stanton's mother-in-law and granddaughter, via her 1st son from her first marriage, Jack "Jackie" Lionel Daniel!  My plan was to contact them via FB,  which they were both on, once i got some sleep.  I was so psyched! However,  I awoke to the news a couple of days ago that Brian Doyle had posted an alleged photo of Stanton and her son, Larry after contacting her granddaughter.  Turns out he had used my genealogical research (i had so helpfully posted on the Stanton family findagrave memorials).   He did not contact me to see if i had planned on doing so. I was suspicious that this was what had happened because...what are the chances he would track her down at the same moment i had?!  He, in fact,  admitted to this is what he had done in a FB forum. I was beyond exhausted and incensed.  So, when you see that photo, if it is her, be aware of who did the actual legwork.  The people in the photo do look like Sarah Stanton and her son Larry, IMO. However,  I have not contacted the daughter-in-law and granddaughter yet to confirm that it is, indeed, them. 

Edited by Linda Giovanna Zambanini
To correct a typo

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Linda:

I have nothing else but the highest admiration for your work and understand well the effort and the states you went through while searching for both ladies. I also appreciate your investments into the memberships in various platforms. Your findings could not be brought to the daylight without the commitment you showed. If it were possible to retrieve the pictures of both ladies just by googling them, they would be already displayed. Your discoveries are essential as without having pictures of both ladies. It is not relevant that somebody else watched and posted Mrs. Stanton's photograph without first asking you. 

As far as the picture of Mrs. Stanton displayed by the other person, I viewed it and found out was buried in a swamp of pathological, hateful, ridiculous and imbecile statements. 

Back to your pictures. I think you were successful in finding Mrs. Stanton's pictures, one from her childhood, one when she was young (maybe in her twentieth?). The child and the lady in the right-hand side picture of the double picture appear to be the same persons. Mrs. Stanton photographed with her son is the same person as the lady in the right-hand panel. It is difficult to recognise, however, Mrs. Stanton wore glasses, both in the double picture and in the picture showing her with her son. The picture when she is photographed with her son was taken when she was already older, maybe even retired. However, please have a look on the chin, on the back seated mouth, constant smile, and importantly, the curve of her hair on the right side of her face. 

So, your work was more than successful, and a big thanks go your way.

 

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On 5/29/2018 at 8:01 PM, Linda Giovanna Zambanini said:

She's the same lady as in the '46 photo. She has the same dark coloring around her eyes/upper cheeks (rosacea?) Just seen from a different angle. While age may be one factor in causing jowls,  i'm sure genetics and obesity can be other factors. She's obviously seriously overweight - best seen from the side view in the '46 photo. The '46 other photo is labeled and she's Mrs. R.E. Sanders.  Her husband , Robert E. "Bob" Sanders was a longtime teacher at Crozier  and her son Robert E. Sanders Jr. graduated from there in '47. Her son and daughter,  Susan Jane Sanders, (who attended Woodrow Wilson HS) look like her.  Sorry,  Chris,  I still believe it's her. If you're convinced it's not her then do some digging on Ancestry.com etc... and find a older "Mrs. R.E. Sanders" who lives in the vicinity of Crozier. 



 

Linda,

I wasn't doubting that it was Pauline. I thought she looked quite old for the photos supplied.

Checked "Classmates.com" and sure enough she's in both yearbooks.

Here's her later affidavit(gives birthdate/place of birth) along with Sarah Stanton's, which confirmed your research for me.

Well done and thank you for the info,

Chris

41619406865_630257b8b5_b.jpg

 

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Let us look further into Mrs. Stanton's appearance. Linda Zambanini, after months of intense effort and with sacrifices, was able to link one picture, currently posted on Find A Grave server, with Mrs. Stanton. That picture is shown in the left-hand panel in the figure below. Sarah was photographed as a child with her younger siblings. Later, one former member of the Forum posted on Facebook ("PrayerWoman" page) another picture of Mrs. Stanton. Mrs. Stannton was photographed with a young man, allegedly her son Larry. The family of Mrs. Stanton conferred that Mrs. Stanton was a tall woman between 5'4'' and 5'6''. 

childold.jpg?w=768

I took some time to compare the faces of these two females and, in my opinion, both pictures depict the same person, once when she was a child and once when she was older. The signs which confirm the identity are highlighted with yellow lines in the figure below: curling of hair on sides of the forehead, distinct cheeks, mouth situated deep in the face,  the line of the mouth (and a constant smile), and the chin protruding forwards. As a result of the chin-cheek-mouth configuration, there appeared to be a shadow lateral to the corners of the mouth. These strong features are important not only because they confirm the identity of Mrs. Sanders but also that these facial features should be present in any new picture of Mrs. Stanton.

facesstanton.jpg?w=768

The childhood picture shows few interesting details. First, young Sarah used to or liked to wear glasses, perhaps sunglasses. The sunglasses have a white frame. Similar white-frame sunglasses can be seen on the left-hand woman in the double picture (5/31)  which, however, was not confirmed yet Linda that it would show Mrs. Stanton. Further, Sarah had a relatively short forearm compared to the length of the forearm which both Prayer Man and Lee Harvey Oswald) had. Lee' forearm was 10-15% longer than it should be for a man of his body height.

arm_glasses.jpg?w=768

 

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Posted (edited)

Mrs. Stanton was a tall person, however, her son Larry was even taller which is not surprising. He was a male and children often are taller than parents. The question is how much was Larry taller than Mrs. Stanton. I have analysed the body heights of both these figures in detail and it appears that Mrs. Stanton's head reached about to the middle of the naso-labial space, the space between the bottom of the nose and upper lip of the mouth. The sizes of human heads are known as well as the distances between the top of the head to the bottom of the nose. Here are some data:

headmeasures.jpg?w=768

The difference between the dimension labelled (14) and the dimension labelled (16) is about 6 1/2 inch for tall people (the relevant values framed with ellipses).  However, how tall was Larry?

The figure below shows the method of estimation of Larry's body height using the 7.5 head-to-body ratio which I have used in several of my previous posts.  I used the 7.5 ratio to estimate the ground level in the garden picture of Mrs. Stanton and  her son. I then also applied the same method to Mrs. Stanton. The top of the heads is a bit difficult to estimate because both people had bushy hair which could be pressed by an inch lower to the skull. Therefore, I took the half of the distance between the forehead hairline and the top of hair as the estimate of the top of the head. In the next,  a measuring stick was placed next to Mrs. Stanton who we know measured between 5'4 - 5'6''. The middle of the range (5'5'') was taken to align with the top of Mrs. Stanton's head. At this stage, it was possible to read Larry's body height, and it was 6'.  It could also be slightly more tahn 6' but not more than 1''. 

stantonsizelarry.jpg?w=768

 

 

The two pink rectangles are the nose-to-nose differences between the two prople. One of the rectangle is placed close to the measuring stick to allow reading.  The nose-to-nose distance was 7''. I use nose-to-nose distance to compare the body height difference because the tips of the noses can be reliably identified in both figures, unlike the tops of the heads.

So, let us make a small math: 6' = 72''. 72'' - 7'' = 65''. And 65'' is 5' 5'', which is Mrs. Stanton's body height. 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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Posted (edited)

And so, Larry was 6' as was also Buell Wesley Frazier. Let us fit Larry onto Mr. Frazier's figure in Darnell, as they were of the same body height, and we will see how would Mrs. Stanton fare as Prayer Man. 

darnellandlarrryandstanton40.jpg?w=768

In the figure above, the garden picture was overlayed onto the doorway together with the measuring stick. Larry was fitted onto Mr. Frazier and the rest is determined by the dimensions of both photographs. Please note the thin blue line aligned horizontally with the top of Prayer Man's head. It crosses the measuring stick at 5'2''. Mrs. Stanton would never make it as Prayer Man. She is just too tall to be Prayer Man. I am not mentioning other details such as body build and hairlines which are so much different in Mrs. Stanton compared to Prayer Man, however, this is because I would not like to be involved in silly games: "I say the hairlines are identical" and " And I say the hairlines are different" - this is a typical ego game usually ending with locking a thread.

And this is all she wrote. Prayer Man could be neither Mrs. Saunders nor Mrs. Stanton. So, who was Prayer Man?

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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Posted (edited)

Let us now move the whole garden picture to the east so that the face of Mrs. Stanton would be close to Mr. Shelley's figure in the centre of the doorway. 

darnell_allposisble.jpg?w=768

 

The face of Mrs. Stanton is delineated with a yellow line to indicate the relative height of her face if she stood back there in the shadow. The inset in the right part of the picture is from another Darnell frame which shows a blurred head of a person who stood behind Mr. Shelley's right shoulder. The inset is aligned to match the figure of Mr. Frazier. The red half-circle is where a faint contour of a head is seen (please see http://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com for more details). Mrs. Stanton's face would match the height at which this faint face can be seen. Mrs. Stanton stood in the shadow, very close to Mr. Frazier, just as he told in his 2013 interview. 

The figure below (C) shows where the face of Mrs. Stanton was in that particular frame. I understand that some researchers would like to have a clear view of Mrs. Stanton to confirm the identity, unfortunately, no frame shows any details. This is the reason why her figure has not been identified for 54 years. If it would all be simple and straightforward, she would have been already spotted by previous generations of researchers.

composite1.jpg?w=603&h=1024

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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This is a simple variation on the theme of Mrs. Stanton' appearance in the doorway if she had posed as Prayer Man. It is a very simple analysis which anyone can replicate. We know that Mr. Frazier was 6' tall and can use this known dimension to place a measuring stick in such a way that the 6'  tick aligns with the top of Mr. Frazier's head. In the next, Mrs. Stanton's figure, cut from the garden photograph, is placed into the scene in such a way that the top of her head aligns with the 5'5'' tick. The yellow and purple horizontal lines highlight the problem: the yellow line connects the tip of Prayer Man's head with the lower edge of Mr. Frazier's head, something which has been demonstrated many times and it is well acknowledged. This line crosses the measuring stick at 5'2''. The purple line is, of course, 3'' higher than the yellow line. Mrs. Stanton with her 5'5'' was too tall to be Prayer Man. In the figure below, the top of Mrs. Stanton head was taken simply as the top of her hair. The 5'5'' line is actually what matters most in this example. One can also use this simple analysis to estimate the height of Mr. Frazier's head. It was 10''. 

darnell_simplemeasure.jpg?w=768

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I modelled various  body heights of Prayer Man for the situation if Prayer man stood with both his feet on the top landing in my blog article dated April 2016 (http://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com).  In the figure below, copied from my blog post, Prayer Man has been set to measure 5'6'', only an inch more than the height estimate of 5'5'' (Mrs. Stanton). However, a range of 5'4'' - 5''6'' was provided by Mrs. Stanton's family and therefore, the example is relevant. The horizontal blue line is the line crossing the top of Prayer Man's head in Darnell still. One can easily see that the height difference between 5'6'' and 5'2'' invalidates the possibility of such person to be Prayer Man.

solution3.jpg?w=768

 

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UPDATE!

Sarah Stanton ID in Darnell.

Pauline-Sanders-and-Sarah-Stanton-in-Dar

This ends the Stanton/Sanders debate. Crying Woman's spirit just faded away......

Lee Oswald was and still is The Prayer Man

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Posted (edited)

Bart:

I am not sure if your location of Sarah Stanton in Darnell is plausible. Of course, the pictures are blurred to the extent that it is difficult to understand who is who. The light object which you have highlighted may be Joe Molina. Please see all doorway frames in Darnell and you may see that this person has stepped down one step about 10 frames earlier. I have played the doorway part of Darnell many times to understand this and all other details. It looks like this person is shielding his eyes with an arm, however, in fact, he uses both his arms but since he is seen from the profile, it looks like he is using one arm only. This is what Mr. Molina did in Altgens and Wiegman, and what he continues to do in Darnell. 

Please find here an overlay of the particular Darnell frame with the 3D model. It helps, at least me, to visualise the body contours in blurred blobs. 

wholescene_nosanders_75.jpg?w=422&h=483

... and the full model:

whole_scene_cut.jpg?w=768&h=911

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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Posted (edited)

Andrej if you read their statements then it makes logical sense for any of them to step down and get a better view of Elm just after it happened.

Furthermore she is blond.

But I completely disagree with your drawing.

Shelley and Lovelady are gone. There is no jacket being worn by Molina!

There is no one behind Frazier and Molina.

Williams made his way up to the 4th floor. I have looked at the images and see no human shape or form in front of Molina like there is in Wiegman (where Williams stood in front of Molina).

Edited by Bart Kamp

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