Pauline Sanders

[Andrej Stancak]

10 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Andrej if you read their statements then it makes logical sense for any of them to step down and get a better view of Elm just after it happened.

Furthermore she is blond.

But I completely disagree with your drawing.

Shelley and Lovelady are gone. There is no jacket being worn by Molina!

There is no one behind Frazier and Molina.

Williams made his way up to the 4th floor. I have looked at the images and see no human shape or form in front of Molina like there is in Wiegman (where Williams stood in front of Molina).

Bart:

the Darnell scene could not change too much during the time which elapsed from the end of Wiegman till when Darnell captured the doorway, some 20 seconds. What the people in the doorway did (except Prayer Man) was that they optimised their views of the Tripple Underpass. The ladies in the lower eastern part of the doorway turned their heads more towards their right side. Mrs. Reese walked up from the sixth to the third step to tackle the problem that she was short and needed an elevated vantage point. Carl Jones left entirely after Wiegman and moved in direction of the Grassy Knoll. Otis Williams is at a similar spot in Darnell as he was in Altgens and Wiegman, he only changed arms; he was shielding his eyes with his right arm in Altgens and he used his left arm in Darnell. Mr. Frazier was close to the glass window, deep in the shadow in Wiegman, and he moved forwards to the spot which was occupied by Billy Lovelady seconds earlier. Billy Lovelady is seen stepping down at end of Wiegman, however, he stopped and is on the fifth step in Darnell. Joe Molina stepped down one step and rotated his torso towards his right and this together with Darnell's camera view angle causes him to be viewed from the profile. Mrs. Saunders moved slightly more towards the west so she is seen close to the middle door window in Darnell, and cannot be seen in Wiegman or Altgens. In Wiegman, she fell into the "dead space", a space not seen by Wiegman's camera. In Altgens, her small figure is hidden behind Shelley's figure. Mr. Shelley wore a suit, and he stood in the centre of the top landing throughout the films. Mrs. Stanton stood between Billy Lovelady and  Bill Shelley in Altgens and stepped back into the shadow and behind Mr. Shelley's right shoulder just before Darnell  film was shot.

As far as the two men seen in Couch/Darnell who you consider to be Shelley and Lovelady, I also believed that they would be them. I was mistaken. The man in suit is taller than the other man wearing the shirt which cannot be. Bill Shelly was only 5'6'', he was shorter than Billy Lovelady. Billy Lovelady had a disticnt forward head posture (a hunch) which that man in Couch/Darnell does not have.

While I was at ROKC, there was a gentleman there, I guess his name was Lee Farley. He was the first to raise the possibility that the man close to the western wall on the fifth step was Billy Lovelady. His suggestion did not fare well at that time, however, after looking at the film frames and checking all the details later, including the body height, I think Mr. Farley was correct and deserves a credit for his discovery.

If you would wish to discard Williams, Molina, Shelley and Lovelady as the doorway occupants in Darnell, you would need to say who are the people which are now unlabelled.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

Lee Farley was wrong at that time. I think I put a comprehensive case forward that they had left.

I don't need to name anyone, for what purpose? The shooting has been done 15 seconds later people have moved to either get a better view or make their way inside. What is the point trying to ID them?

The differences between Wiegman and Darnell are legion.

[Andrej Stancak]

Bart:

I can see that you already made up your mind about the people in the doorway. I have added to your picture some lines which delineate the figure of who I think is Mrs. Stanton, just in case you would in future like to consider this option too.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Right, let us continue pursuing the possibility of Sarah Stanton being Prayer Man. We now know that Mrs. Stanton considered herself to be 5'4'' - 5'6''. However, the thick layer of her hair makes it difficult to say exactly how tall, within the range given by herself, she actually was. Therefore, I constructed a 3D model of Mrs. Stanton by copying as many of her features as possible. A slightly less elaborate model of Larry was also made because Larry was 6' or 6'1'' and his figure was useful in checking Mrs. Stanton's body height.

The figure below shows the original family photograph (left) and the reconstructed figures (right) with a 30% and 70% overlays in the middle.

 

It is important to note that Mrs. Stanton had a very thick but not a long upper forearm.  Also, please note that Larry stands slightly behind Mrs. Stanton which can confound readings of his body height from a photograph.

After obtaining correct proportions of both figures, it was possible to import them into the 3D  doorway model to see how would they look like in comparison to Mr. Frazier. The next figure shows the doorway with Mrs. Stanton and Larry on the left and Mr. Frazier at his usual location on the right. Mrs. Stanton's body height was set to 5'5''. It is not too difficult to see that Larry was of the exact same height as Mr. Frazier. Also, the top of Mrs. Stanton head is much higher that Mr. Frazier shoulder/lower chin line which Prayer Man's figure shows in Darnell.

 

And the same figures with measuring sticks crossing their bodies so that everyone can check the body heights. Of course, Larry was 6' and not 5'10'' which the best photoanalyst has professionally determined just by looking on the picture. 

 

We will also explore how would Mrs. Stanton fare as Prayer Man. This promises to be a lot of fun.

 

Edited June 23, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

300 pounds, grey hair.....damn Prayer Man is having some girth..... 

[Andrej Stancak]

[The next two posts were moved from a different thread after realising that the content of that thread was only marginally related to Mrs. Stanton. Please note that the figure of Mrs. Stanton has been updated to the one shown in my latest posts in this thread].

Returning to Mrs. Stanton, let us place her figure (5'5'') onto the top landing and explore how would she fare as Prayer Man. To recall, Mrs. Stanton's figure was carefully modelled using the family photograph in which Mrs. Stanton had posed with her son Larry. Mrs. Stanton was a huge lady weighing more than 300 pounds, with massive (but not long) upper arms and bottom.

This is the family photograph and with the figure of Mrs. Stanton:

I changed the colours of Mrs. Stanton's clothes to yield grey colors in a black-and-white photograph, and here she is standing at approximate Prayer Man's location. Please note that she is as close to the front edge of the top landing as possible. 

 

And a Darnell view with the doorway embedded into Darnell still:
 

 

The overhead view of the doorway with Mr. Frazier's and Mrs. Stanton's figure may be handy too.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Andrej Stancak]

To understand the problem of Mrs. Stanton's figure posing as Prayer Man, I have highlighted with yellow lines few important features in Prayer Man's figure: the contour of his head, the right elbow, and forearm and his bent left leg. Please note the short distance between Prayer Man's right elbow and the head of the man below.

#

 

The overlays of these contours (in purple), the Darnell still and Mrs. Stanton's figure are shown in the next two insets which also summarise the unsolvable problems with Mrs. Stanton = Prayer Man solution.

 

 

Obviously, Mrs. Stanton was too tall to be Prayer Man. The top of her head would reach to Mr. Frazier's nose just like it does in the family photograph, in which Mrs. Stanton's head reached to the nose of her son Larry (6' - 6'1''). The height problem is demonstrated with the blue horizontal line. The yellow line is the height to which the top of Prayer Man's head would reach. As predicted in my previous posts, the right elbow is too high and too far from the head of the man standing three steps lower and who I believe was Mrs. Billy Lovelady. It is not important at this stage if the man was Billy Lovelady or someone else. This head offers an important landmark and every plausible solution has to show that the right elbow is as close to that man's head as Darnell's still shows. The yellow line indicates the large gap in the region of the right elbow. The gap is owing to: 1) the person on the top landing is further away from this man's head compared to Prayer Man who effectively stood on the second step. 2) homologous body parts in two people of unequal body heights (5'9'' and 5'2'') will not be on the same height levels even if the taller of the two people stood 7'' lower than the shorter person. In this particular situation, the elbow joints will be 2'' higher in the short compared to the tall person. 3) Mrs. Stanton was 5'5'' which adds additional 3'' to the elbow height difference. Finally, Prayer Man's bent left leg covers a part of the radiator in Darnell's still but not Mrs. Stanton's legs. Should Mrs. Stanton stand at Prayer Man's location, her straight legs would not obstruct the visible part of the radiator.

There is another problem with Mrs. Stanton's location close to the western wall. The back of her right hand does not reflect the sunlight. If she is moved few inches eastwards, her hand would indeed touch the sunlight. In that case, however, other features of her figure would not match Prayer Man, especially her head which would be in front of Prayer Man' head. Of course, the distance from the lower man's head would not decrease, it would rather increase. 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Ken Rheberg]

 

Have any of you either personally contacted, tried to personally contact, or even thought of personally contacting Pauline Sanders' son, daughter-in-law or grandson about any of this?  If they agree to talk to you, it seems like they might be able to clear up any confusion regarding Pauline's height, weight, where she was standing, what she remembered that day, etc.

Ken

[Andrej Stancak]

12 hours ago, Ken Rheberg said:

 

Have any of you either personally contacted, tried to personally contact, or even thought of personally contacting Pauline Sanders' son, daughter-in-law or grandson about any of this?  If they agree to talk to you, it seems like they might be able to clear up any confusion regarding Pauline's height, weight, where she was standing, what she remembered that day, etc.

Ken

Ken:

Mrs. Linda Zambanini was able to retrieve the photographs of Mrs. Sanders and they are in page 1 of this thread. I am not sure if Linda or anyone else have contacted the living family members. While it would be interesting to know if Mrs. Sanders's family had also any memories of the 22nd of November told to them by Mrs. Pauline Sanders, her location in the doorway does not produce too many disputes. She is seen in one, and only one, frame of Darnell film as a tiny person standing very close to the glass window in the eastern part of the doorway:

 

Her body height was about 5'' and it matches the relative body height in a group photograph of standing ladies (page 1). Mrs. Sanders was the second shortest person in the row of ladies suggesting that she was indeed short. I have estimated her body height in my blog article: http://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com (January 31, 2018). The hairline of Mrs. Sanders is very unique. It was dark and boyish looking, and created as if a small cap on her head. This hair would be consistent with the hair seen in the tiny person in Darnell still (yellow frame in the picture above).

Some uncertainties were about the location of Mrs. Stanton, the other of two ladies standing on the top landing while the motorcade was passing in front of the Depository building. Fortunately, Mrs. Stanton's photograph has also been discovered and her family members confirmed that her body height was 5'4'' - 5'6''. Having these new data, I decided to verify the possibility that Mrs. Stanton could pose as Prayer Man and this was the purpose of my recent posts in this thread.

Mrs. Stanton could not be Prayer Man for quite a number of reasons:

1. Mrs. Stanton was too tall relative to the height of the top of Prayer Man's head. The point corresponding to the top of Prayer Man's head was 5'2'' above the plane of the top landing. Mrs. Stanton was too tall (5'5'') and her figure in the 3D model has exceeded Prayer Man's figure. I was able to show the height mismatch using 3D modelling.

2. However, one does not need to use 3D modelling to grasp that Mrs. Stanton would be too tall to be Prayer Man. Her son Larry  (6' - 6'1'') was of about the same height as Mr. Frazier. In the photograph in which she and her son stood next to each other,  the top of Mrs. Stanton's head reaches to Larry's nose. As Larry and Mr. Frazier were of identical body height, it is possible to to draw an analogy and check how her body height would map onto Mr. Frazier's body. This simple comparison showed that Mrs. Stanton was indeed too tall to be Prayer Man since the horizontal line crossing the top of her head has crossed Mr. Frazier's nose; however, this line is higher than the line crossing the top of Prayer Man's head. My last post actually reproduced this finding using a 3D model.

3. Mr. Stanton had massive upper arms but her upper arms and forearms were comparatively short.  Further the lenght of her forearm was about the same as the lenght of her upper arm. In contrast, Prayer Man had an unusally long forearm, much longer than Mr. Stanton's forearm.

4. If fitted to the Prayer Man location, the figure of Mrs. Stanton would show clear disparities with Prayer Man's figure: 1. besides being too tall, her right elbow would not overlap with Prayer Man's elbow joint, it would be much higher and far away from Paryer Man's elbow joint. 2. Mrs. Stanton would stand with her legs straight and her left leg would not cover the visible part of the radiator as Prayer Man's left leg does.

5. Mrs. Stanton had grey hair which created a thick layer above her forehead. This hair is not compatible with Prayer Man's hair which was short, dark and consistent with a male haircut.

6. Mrs. Stanton was obese, she weighed above 300 pounds. As in many obese people, her figure shows her head to be attached to the shoulders as if there was no neck. Prayer Man's figure was that of a slender person and his head was clearly above his shoulders.

7. Mrs. Stanton stood in the vicinity of Mrs. Shelley, Mr. Lovelady and Mr. Williams. Thus, according to her own statements she was in the cluster of people standing about in the centre of the doorway, she did not stand alone at the western wall.

8. Mr. Frazier resoundingly confirmed that Mr. Stanton stood to his left, consistent with Mrs. Stanton's own and other people's testimonies, in his 2002 interview with Gary Mack (53:15). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNq-y_NLvj8&t=3216s

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Ken Rheberg]

On 7/2/2018 at 12:44 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

 

Ken: While it would be interesting to know if Mrs. Sanders's family had also any memories of the 22nd of November told to them by Mrs. Pauline Sanders. . .

 

 

Sorry, Andrej.  More than "interesting to know."  This is the sad state of the so-called "Research Community" today.  Meaningless threads going nowhere.  Created and perpetuated on this very forum, in so many cases, by individuals with nothing more than stamp club mentalities.  And cheered on and dominated by a third generation reader/writer who has done nothing, so far, to lead you to the Promised Land of what really happened that day in Dealey Plaza.  Will he ever take you there?  Don't hold your breath.

[Andrej Stancak]

2 hours ago, Ken Rheberg said:

Sorry, Andrej.  More than "interesting to know."  This is the sad state of the so-called "Research Community" today.  Meaningless threads going nowhere.  Created and perpetuated on this very forum, in so many cases, by individuals with nothing more than stamp club mentalities.  And cheered on and dominated by a third generation reader/writer who has done nothing, so far, to lead you to the Promised Land of what really happened that day in Dealey Plaza.  Will he ever take you there?  Don't hold your breath.

Thanks, Ken, for your comment which I do not know if it was intended to point to the lack of deep research interest on my part of on somebody else's part. I am maybe a fourth-generation researcher. Of course, I would love to speak to the witnesses or to the pioneers of JFK research such as Harold Wiseberg or Mark Lane, unfortunately, this possibility was not given to me. 

As a fourth-generation researcher, however, I do what I can do and what my predecessors could not do: I am reconstructing the old photographs using 3D modelling, and am able to extract information which previous researchers did not see. I see a big progress in the understanding of what was happening in the doorway during the shooting in spite of many people downplaying or twisting it.

As far as Mrs. Sanders and Mrs. Stanon are concerned, I would have hoped that the researchers living in Dallas/Texas had contacted the two ladies in the sixties or seventies when they were both alive and had good memories. In fact, the family members of Mrs. Stanton confirmed that Mrs. Stanton had been approached but she did not want to speak to anyone. It could have been the same with Mrs. Saunders.  The FBI testimony of Mrs. Stanton differs from what she told to the family members in several important points indicating that she knew that there was a difference between what happened and what she had told to the FBI. We at least have their photographs which are extremely helpful. The testimonies of the family members will inevitably have limited accuracy and would be filtered not only by memory lapses but also by the fact that they are reported by someone else. 

Actually, the stakes are high in this or similar now scattered threads related to Prayer Man. The question is whether the person standing close to the western wall in Darnell just after the shooting could be Lee Oswald. The whole official story of the Warren Commission hangs on it and this is not a small or unimportant thing.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

 The height of the human head is 9.1'' in a male of an average body height, however, it gets to 9.7''  - 10'' in very tall people such as Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier. Here is a copy of a Wikipedia page labelled "Human head":

Thus, the height of Mr. Frazier's head was about 10''. Not 7 1/2'' or 8'', it would be a mistake to assume such a small head in an adult male.

 

In Darnell still, the top of Prayer Man's head reaches to the lower edge of Mr. Frazier's chin, and it is therefore reasonable to assume that the height Prayer Man's head reached to was 72'' (Mr. Frazier's body height) - 10 (height of the head)  = 62'' or 5'2'' above the plane of the top landing.

This is illustrated with the horizontal blue line in the figure below:

The question is if drawing this line is justified given the effect of perspective which can alter apparent dimensions of distant and close 3D objects.

To check the appropriateness of the simple drawing above, I have placed a slab, a 3D object, into the doorway in such a way that it would cover Prayer Man's head. Recall, Prayer Man stood in the front part of the top landing. The vertical plane crossing the riser of the top step would cross Prayer Man's head about in the centre. The slab is thick enough to also cover the head of Mrs. Stanton should she stay on the top landing at Prayer Man's location (she did not!). 

 

And a top view of the slab:

 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Andrej Stancak]

The next figure shows an overlay of  Darnell still, the 3D model with the slab, and the blue horizontal line.

The top right corner of the slab was slightly higher than the left corner. However, the height of the slab was exactly at the top of Prayer Man's head at about 1/3 of the horizontal length of the slab. While the blue horizontal line is a good approximation of the relative height of Prayer Man compared to Mr. Frazier, the horizontal line of the slab is still a better choice. The result is the same for each of the two solutions (blue line or the horizontal line of the slab) albeit more accurate if the perspective factor is taken into account. The top of Prayer Man's head, if perspective is taken into account, reached to the the lower aspect of Mr. Frazier's chin.

 

I would be grateful for expressing any doubts about the correctness of my analysis and reasoning as if I do not hear any I am inclined to assume that the 5'2'' estimate has been accepted.

 

[John Butler]

Andrej,

Any idea what this Ken Rheberg is talking about?  You think I should ask him if I can make a positive statement about your reasearch?  I wonder what “stamp club mentalies” are?

5’2” is dead on.  You have identified one characteristic that can be related to Harvey Oswald or as Hargroves says Classic Oswald.  Add the 7 inches for the step and 5’9” is the same height as Oswald.  

Unfornunately, there is not much else to work on. Prayer Man has large forearms or at least the appearance of such.  If one compared forearms with another Oswald photo such as the shot of Oswald at the New Orleans police station ther might be something there.  The one where he is leaning against the wall.  Then something might be said.

Prayer Man has his sleeves rolled up.  If one could tag that as a habit of Prayer Man that might be a smidgen more evidence in the right direction.

To me, looking at Prayer Man with the eye of the artist, his overall appapearace is very similar to Oswalds appearance.  Even as blurry as the image is there is something there.  The problem with that is getting others to agree.  

Identification of what he has in his hands might edge the notion that prayer man is Oswald closer to acceptibilty.  If witnesses say Oswald had a coke then did he have a coke on the landing?

[Ken Rheberg]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

Andrej,

. . . Any idea what this Ken Rheberg is talking about?  You think I should ask him if I can make a positive statement about your reasearch?  I wonder what “stamp club mentalies” are?. . .

I've been posting here for over twelve years.  You for less than two.  That doesn't excuse you, however, from asking one member what another member is talking about rather than going right to the source.  That's a new one, I've got to admit.  So, go ahead, ask me if you're truly serious about getting answers to the above questions.  And, since you're quoting me, the word is "mentalities" not "mentalies".

Edited July 10, 2018 by Ken Rheberg