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Jim Hargrove

Sarah Stanton spoke to Oswald, holding a Coke, near stairway shortly before witnessing motorcade, according to Stanton relative....

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A trusted correspondent has told me that Sarah Stanton’s daughter-in-law is confirming on Facebook that her mother-in-law saw LHO “by the stairs” before she went outside to watch the motorcade.  Here’s what the correspondent wrote:

Yesterday Sarah Stanton's daughter in law confirmed that her mother in law regularly told family members of meeting Lee Harvey Oswald "by the stairs" prior to Stanton's going out to watch the motorcade... The daughter in law said Sarah said Oswald had a soda... Sarah asked Oswald "Are you going to eat lunch?"...Oswald replied "No, just a soda"... Sarah then went out to watch the motorcade...

   Though this doesn't place Oswald in the lunch room directly it bears hints that the encounter happened by the vestibule to the 2nd floor lunch room...Stanton was a 2nd floor office employee so it makes sense that she encountered Oswald by the 2nd floor lunch room...It makes sense to me that by logic Stanton asked Oswald if he was going to eat lunch because he was standing on the 2nd floor stairway landing by the door to the lunch room...I think the daughter in law mentioned Sarah seeing Oswald in a "break room" so I assume this was the lunch room since the only other break room was the Domino Room far from the stairs in the Northeast corner of the Depository...I assume Stanton would have no reason to go to the workers break room since she was an office worker and the Domino Room was not near any stairs...In any case why would Stanton ask Oswald if he was going to lunch if he was just standing "by the stairs" with a soda? It makes sense to me that Stanton saw Oswald by the vestibule to the 2nd floor lunch room near the same place that Carolyn Arnold saw him.... Logic dictates Oswald bought the soda in the lunch room....

   This is serious new evidence that corroborates Oswald being seen in the 2nd floor lunch room just before, as well as just after, the assassination...It also evidences Oswald having a soda, which means he was set up eating lunch in the 2nd floor lunch room and was probably there during the assassination...

    Debra Conway gave it a "like" on her Facebook page...Robert Groden told me "You really have something there"...
 

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Buell Frazier, in the YouTube video below, says he was standing next to Sarah Stanton on the Depository steps.  The sequence begins at the 40:52 mark.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

May I suggest you do not  act like a mouthpiece for Brian Doyle and his unsubstantiated drivel. This rubbish is rightly so not discussed here.

Why not present the complete picture with the statements relating to her (standing n the east side  i/e)

Then Doyle who ends up quoting her (grand) daughter ought to be publishing the tape or emails/messages he received from her since she sent him the pic it would be easy to show with a screen shot, yet bugger all has been produced.

Faker!

 

 

Edited by Bart Kamp

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Has there ever been any other verification or even mention of this claim that Stanton said she saw Oswald on the second floor ( and even talked to him?) at lunch time and before the motorcade came by?

No public record of any statement taken by police agency investigators where Ms. Stanton says this?

Has anyone else ever interviewed Stanton's daughter to second this claim she makes about her mother saying this?

The importance of an Oswald sighting and encounter at this time is obvious.  Does seem like hardly anyone takes the claim seriously however.

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Posted (edited)

Stanton stood east Jim, and to compare a blonde woman with Prayer Man simply boggles the mind.

 

Edited by Bart Kamp

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If this is true it would of course be an interesting piece of the puzzle. But it seems that it is doubtful that this testimony is really valuable. I have to say I am not very familiar with the other statements from or about this witness. I would appreciate it when there would be some more info for and against this witness testimony. 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

This is serious new evidence

Jim:

what is the serious new evidence, what is your source's biased interpretation, and what is your translation of what you were told? Would you please put down the factographic evidence and allow other researchers to contact the grand daughter to verify all information independently. I would know whom to ask to act as an independent investigator, and would be happy to supply some questions.

Screenshots of emails, recordings of phone conversations and the opportunity to ask questions independently is what is required for members of this forum to pursue this further. The new information is certainly surprising in the light of what Mrs. Stanton told to the FBI (report in WC, CD7): "She knows LEE HARVEY OSWALD by sight, being employed by the same concern, but is not personally acquainted with him and did not see OSWALD on November 22, 1963, and she never seen him with a gun." and in another FBI statement (3/18/1964): I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at that time or at any time during that day."

How does this fare with what the grand daugher of Mrs. Stanton says? What is the truth?

Now, the timing of the encounter between Mrs. Stanton and Lee Oswald is interesting. We know that Mrs. Stanton was outside with Bill Shelley around or just very shortly after 12noon because when Billy Lovelady came to the first floor (before 12noon), he only washed his hands, went up to buy a Coke, took his lunch, peeked into the Domino room, and went out because there he saw Mrs. Stanton with mr. Shelley. If Billy was slow, he would be out at 12.10-12.15 as the latest:

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down. 
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there. 
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?  

I am not sure and cannot know if Mrs. Stanton met Lee Oswald and when on that Friday. If she saw and talked to Lee, it could be that Lee Oswald replicated Billy Lovelady's actions - went down around 12noon (he was seen by Mr. Shelley close to the phone) and went back to the second floor to buy a Coke (just like Billy Lovelady), and returned down to the domino room to have his lunch. He bought the Coke for the lunch. If the story you present here is true, we have a clear evidence that the witnesses lied or were coerced to lie about seeing Lee Oswald. They could likewise see him in the doorway and then deny it.

 

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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Posted (edited)

Apologies to Bart Kamp for sticking my nose in here.  I understand Bart's frustration with the Sarah Stanton Red Herring issue.  But, Jim Hargrove seems to be an honest fellow and if "his drivel" is drivel then it should be pointed out in a more tactful manner.

I had a similar conversation with Tommy Graves in which he kept badgering me about Sarah Stanton being Prayer Man.  I'm with Bart Kamp, it is a ludicrous thought.

Speaking of T.G. he asked a question that I didn't answer.  I missed it concentrating on Sarah Stanton.  I said you can't prove anyone fired a shot from the 6th floor Sniper's Nest.  I want to answer that here even though it is off topic.

5th Floor witnesses:

Harold Norman-  Said 3 shots came from directly above him and he described these in detail.  He didn't change his testimony over time.  One solid testimony.

Bonnie Ray Williams-  First said he heard two shots (didn't specify where they were  from) when the presidential limousine turned into the Main and Houston Street intersection.  He later changed this during 3 more statements until the FBI was statisfied.  An iffy testimony based on changing statements.

James "Junior" Jarman-  Junior initially agreed with Harold and Bonnie that shots came from above their position.  He later changed this, when then Congressman Gerald Ford asked about the shooting, to shots that came from low and to the left.  A changed testimony offering something different.

4th Floor Witnesses:  They were within 40 feet of the 6th floor Sniper's Nest.

Victoria Adams-  Heard shots coming from the west in the direction of the Grassy Knoll.

Sandra Styles- At first said she didn't know where the shots came from.  Later, she said they came from the area of the Grassy Knoll.

Dorothy Garner-  Heard 3 shots while the limousine was under trees in front of the TSBD.

Elsie Dorman-  Heard shots coming from the Court Records Building.  This is similar to Junior Jarman.

Under "Mervyn Hagger Standards" of just the facts and legal proof based upon evidence beyond a reasonable doubt then you can not prove anyone fired a rifle from the 6th floor regardless of what witnesses on Houston and Elm said.

Edited by John Butler

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15 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

May I suggest you do not  act like a mouthpiece for Brian Doyle and his unsubstantiated drivel. This rubbish is rightly so not discussed here.

Why not present the complete picture with the statements relating to her (standing n the east side  i/e)

Then Doyle who ends up quoting her (grand) daughter ought to be publishing the tape or emails/messages he received from her since she sent him the pic it would be easy to show with a screen shot, yet bugger all has been produced.

Faker!

Good grief!  Regardless of the facts of where Sarah Stanton was standing on the TSBD stairs...

Where does all your HATE come from?

Can we not even discuss this politely?

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4 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

If the story you present here is true, we have a clear evidence that the witnesses lied or were coerced to lie about seeing Lee Oswald. They could likewise see him in the doorway and then deny it.

Agree

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5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Jim,

there was no need to drag that dreck over here, there has been too much of it here already. None of it can substantiated in any shape or form.

Doyle is the faker btw, was not aimed at you.

Now then shall I say case closed.........

How so?

http://www.prayer-man.com/pauline-sanders-and-sarah-stanton-in-darnell/

Bart,

Frankly, I could care less about how much of a bully you are.  To me, PrayerMan is nothing but a blurry Rorschach test, way too obscure to say anything serious about the assassination of JFK.  I do, however, think that the man I know as troppocrat@aol.com is a SERIOUS JFK researcher, and you do strike me as a BULLY.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but here are a few of the messages troppocrat@aol.com has sent me about you....


Jim:

The link I am attaching is the reason why I had you post what I sent you...

In it Bart Kamp ignores all the detailed evidence I provided while picking a random individual on the steps and labeling her Stanton...

   Kamp ignores a multitude of evidence...But what he ignores the most is Frazier's comments in the video I had you post...That is why I had you post it because it forces the Prayer Man people to answer it...Kamp flagrantly ignores the fact that Frazier emphasized he and Stanton were deep into the shadows...Not only does Kamp choose a person who was in the opposite direction of Frazier and well behind him, but he ignores the fact that the person he randomly selects is way out in direct sunlight and therefore cannot be deep in the shadows as Frazier described Stanton as being...

   Kamp is lying when he says there is no substantiation of any of this...What he flagrantly ignores and desperately tries to get around with these silly offerings says more than anything to credible people...Kamp insults the membership by offering a juvenile one-line response to all of this complex detailed evidence...He's clearly trying to keep information he is aware refutes him from the forum and is therefore working against the rules and interests of the Education Forum and its membership...I think we know who the "faker" is...


     No one points this out on the forum:


            http://www.prayer-man.com/pauline-sanders-and-sarah-stanton-in-darnell/
 

 Jim,  I'm sure you've had your fill of the Prayer Man crap but I read the latest entries by Stancak and they are incredible efforts at Rube Goldberg pseudo-analysis...Because the Education Forum has been trimmed down to only pro-Murphy posters no one takes a deserved wack at Stancak's pinata of ridiculous pseudo-science he tries to pass off as research...

   He calls the obviously short Sarah Stanton "a tall woman" and then tries to pass off her son Larry as being 6 foot tall...I eyed Prayer Man as being 5 foot 5 from my analyses of the Prayer Man evidence over the years...Stanton's relatives confirmed she was 5 foot 5...I now say Stanton's son seen in the family photo the Education Forum finally managed to post is about 5 foot 10 or so...Stancak is making him 6 foot and directly comparable to Frazier...The Education Forum allows Stancak to run uncontrolled like a kid in a sandbox...

    To keep it short if Stancak simply bothered to read what I've posted on my Prayer Woman page and elsewhere he would see I have established firm photogrammetric proof in the form of Prayer Man's height, thick forearm, hips, and the timing of Calvery reaching the steps vs Frazier's saying he was talking to Sarah...If you'll notice Stancak omits all of these when he references the image that was connected to them...

....

It is amazing that the community would not be interested in the seriously important new story about Stanton seeing Oswald with a soda and its significance all because of a petty need to hang on to that Prayer Man BS...

....

DiEugenio asked Kamp where he thought Stanton was and Kamp replied on the east side of the steps...No one on the Prayer Man-dominated Education Forum mentions that Stanton testified that she couldn't see the limousine at the time of the shots - which would put her on the west side right where Prayer Man was blocked from seeing the limo by the west wall...Really credible forum

....

  No one mentions to Andrej that Frazier was very specific in his detailing that he and Sarah were deep in to the shadows on the landing...If they were deep in to the shadows then they were far back on the landing and therefore had both feet on the landing...Once you show Prayer Man had both feet on the landing then you can say with certainty that "he" is 5 foot 5 in height when compared to Frazier and therefore too short to be Oswald...Gordon has allowed Andrej and Kamp to be the only voices on the issue...Therefore they are being shielded from answering these correct points... What Andrej does is seize the narrative by asking numerous questions...By doing so he avoids answering evidence like I am citing here...Andrej is assisted by Gordon in avoiding answering that Stanton's daughter told me Sarah was 5 foot 5...

   Stancak listed "Tiny Woman" (Pauline Sanders) as being 5 foot tall...Stancak knew he had a problem because that excluded Tiny Woman from being the 5 foot 5 Stanton...Which meant he now had to find Stanton out on the landing and identify her...Only he couldn't do it...The recent family photo of Stanton sent to me by her grand daughter shows Stanton to be quite wide in body size...She would obviously be hard to conceal on the landing due to her size...Stancak couldn't locate Stanton so what he did was translate a glimpse of Pauline Sanders' face seen behind Lovelady in Altgens in to an imaginary Sarah Stanton he then inserted in to Darnell...This

 new imaginary Stanton was created out of thin air by Stancak because he knew the evidence needed him to come up with a non-Prayer Man Stanton...The community let him get away with this rogue fabrication...Stancak ignored that Prayer Man was the exact 5 foot 5 listed as Stanton's height...He also ignored the wide hips seen on Prayer Man that matched Stanton's...

   Another thing Kamp and Stancak avoid with their aggressive so-called demands for evidence is that Shelley & Lovelady spoke to Calvery at the base of the steps before taking off up the Elm St extension...Since the Couch/Darnell clip shows Shelley & Lovelady well on their way up the extension, that means Calvery has already conveyed her information that the president had been shot to the occupants of the steps...Which makes you realize the timing is then established for Frazier and Sarah hearing Calvery's saying that...It then becomes undeniable that the Couch/Darnell sequence is at a time period where Frazier has to already be in to the process of communicating Calvary's information to Sarah...One look at the clip shows Frazier and Prayer Man focused on each other and directly looking at each other...This forces the conclusion that Frazier is speaking to "Sarah" at this moment, as he makes clear in the video...

    I have never seen any Prayer Man supporter answer this and Gordon seems intent at not asking them...This is really a matter of credible moderation at this point...

   Why the hate? - Because Kamp is trying to pre-empt having to answer what he already knows to be true...

 

I'm asking again, Bart.  Where does all your HATE come from?

 

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Posted (edited)

Jim:

To my knowledge Doyle has been suspended from this site.

I think it was over his vitriol towards other members.  

Jim, you may not know who troppocrat is, but everything he wrote there sounds just like Doyle.  Of course Doyle may have used someone else since he does all kinds of things in order to get on places he is banned.  But the fact that its him is revealed by his reference to the PW page. He used you to give some info on Stanton, hoping it would then jimmy open the PM thing.  Which it did.  So what you have done, apparently unawares, is you have given him a chance that he would not have had to insult Bart, Andrej, and Gordon and the Mods.

The incredible thing about this is that Doyle got into all this when he was snookered by Duncan's manufacture of PW out of PM.  What Duncan did to create that confection has been  exposed by several people including David Josephs.  But yet, Doyle hangs on to it like a talisman.  And this is what I find so odd, he unites  himself with someone as WC obsessed as McRae in his jihad on this issue.  Now he lives on FB and continues his Ahab crusade there.  I have never liked people who campaign so self righteously on issues that there is simply legitimate debate about. And then unites with someone like Duncan who campaigns for an idea that there really is no debate about--Oswald did not shoot JFK.  Period.  

As I have said before, until someone gets a first gen copy of the film, no one knows for sure who the figure is, but the idea that its a female is really out there.

So Doyle used someone else's research to find Stanton's survivors and now claims this as his own.  But the point is, his argument does not really stand on them, it stands on Frazier.  And he spins what he says to make it declarative.  When he was shown  the figure at the ARRC conference, Frazier had it a few inches from his face.  He said that the copy was not good enough to decipher.  But now, according to Doyle, its the female Stanton.

Whatever happened to GIlbride and his promise to get the first gen copy?  It has to be out there somewhere.  Probably either in NYC or LA since those are the two big media hubs on east and west coast.  If these guys were really serious instead of wanting to further their little personal vendettas, one would think that is what they would be working on.  

But maybe they are not as sure as they present themselves to be.

 

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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