Ed Shields' s partial recording of his HSCA testimony

[Andrej Stancak]

The audio linked below was posted by Denis Morrisette on FaceBook and Youtube. Ed Shields says that Lee Oswald went up to Mrs. Reid's desk after the assassination and told her that the President has been shot. Lee  spotted a bus at that time and left. Mr. Shields was not a witness to these events, however, he gives the names of people who told him about Lee Oswald's movements after the shooting. It would be much appreciated if anyone would be willing to transcribe this short interview, I am not the best person to do it as I may not hear and interpret some words correctly.

Kudos to Denis for getting this and other good quality audio recordings of HSCA testimonies from NARA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKOeM6zk6S8

[Greg Doudna]

Here is my transcription:

Q. –and stuff in the papers here in Dallas, concerning the assassination. Do you remember seeing a picture of Billy Lovelady in the paper?

ES. Yeah they used to kid him about that, tell him how he was all—tell how he looks thinner than a door jamb.

Q. Mm-hm. Alright, you know what picture I’m talking about? 

ES. I think I do.

Q. The one where he’s standing on the steps.

ES. On both steps, yes.

Q. Do you believe that picture was Billy Lovelady?

ES. I really do.

Q. You think it was him?

ES. Because after the assassination Oswald came through the building there. Mrs. Reid was sittin’ at the desk.

Q. Wha--Wait a minute. You’re talking about the day of the assassination?

ES. Uh-huh.

Q. After the shooting?

ES. Uh-huh.

Q. Come on—

ES. He come through the office there. Mrs. Reid was sittin’ at the desk. And he said ‘the President has been shot’. And just as he walked out the door the Capitol bus was coming. That’s when he rode the bus down to Oak Cliff.

Q. Now how do you come about this knowledge?

ES. That’s what <<Divid O Dito??>> was telling me when he come through the door ‘cause he ran upstairs—said he ran upstairs, after all that was over. ‘Cause he was tellin’ me--

Q. Who—who said that he ran upstairs? I’m trying to get to an individual.

ES. Two of them. There was a policeman upstairs.

Q. Right.

ES. Uh-huh.

Q. Now who—where did you get the information that Oswald walked by the lady at the desk and said, ‘The President has been shot’?

ES. That’s what Hank and Junior and all of them that was in there, that’s why they all had to go to Washington.

Q. Julian—

ES. Junior (?) <<Arbrade?>>. Jarmin Junior. And Bonnie Ray Williamson. And Hal Norman. And Mrs. Reid. And Mr. Truly. They all went to Washington.

Q. Alright. Did they hear, uh, Oswald make that statement?

ES. Mrs. Reid did but she’s passed now. She’s deceased.

Q. Did Mrs. Reid ever tell anybody that she heard that?

ES. Not that I know of.

Q. And who is Mrs. Reid?

ES. She was the head of, the head of all the women in the Personnel Office on Elm Street.

Q. She was in the Personnel Office, on Elm Street, and she was the supervisor.

ES. Yes.

Q. Hm-hm. OK. Now would you go through that again for me. This was on the first floor.

ES. Yes, yes it was.

Q. This was on the day of the assassination.

ES. Yes.

Q. The president had been shot.

ES. Yeah.

Q. And Oswald came through the first floor.

ES. Comin’ downstairs. And just--

Q. What stairs are you talking about now?

ES. The back stairs on Elm Street.

Q. Alright.

ES. That’s where that little lunchroom there.

Q. Right.

ES. And he walked through the door and Mrs. Reid was there at the desk and he said the president has been shot. And this is where I can <<told?>> the bus was coming that he got.

Q. Now this is what you have heard.

ES. Yes this is what I have heard. I wasn’t there to witness of that. I heard that.

[tape ends]

[Andrej Stancak]

Greg:

Thanks for transcribing this piece of interview, I appreciate. At places, I am not sure whether Shields understood the course of events properly. It is interesting that Shields hinted Lovelady stood on two steps ("both steps") which may possibly be related to Lovelady stepping down the steps later as evidenced in Wiegman film. I cannot but mention that Prayer Man actually stood both on the top landing and the step below ("both steps"), with his left foot on the lower step and his right foot on the top landing.

The rest of interview appears to be full of misundrestanding both on Shields's and the interviewer's side. If Oswald told Mrs. Reid that the President has been shot, he would have to come from the first floor to the second floor lunchroom after the shooting and then return to the first floor. This would be in accord with the possibility that Lee Oswald was in the doorway just after the shooting and returned to the building within a minute or so. Only if he was outside the building could he know that the President has been shot.

 

[Greg Doudna]

Here is a fresh transcription I have made of four more minutes of the HSCA Edward Shields interview, including the "where's your rider?" exchange with Wesley Frazier told by Shields. To correct one misunderstanding, it seems from this transcript that Shields did not personally hear that exchange himself but was recounting what he had been told of it, in keeping with the other parts of his testimony in which Shields relates what the African-American employees at TSBD learned and told among themselves of that day's events. Is it noteworthy that on the morning of the assassination someone was checking to ensure Oswald arrived to work? Was the question to Frazier prompted by someone having seen two persons arriving in Frazier's car, then looking again seeing only Frazier by himself?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8Y9lU8u7S4

 

[START EXCERPT]

Davis. Now, let me back up a little bit. Are you telling me that this fellow said that somebody who worked in the Book Depository—the building down on Elm and Houston—hollered out the window and asked Frazier, where was his rider?

Shields. Um-hm. [= yes]

Davis. Are you talkin’ about the, the morning of the assassination?

Shields. I think it was, Mr. Davis, if I’m not mistaken, I think it was.

Davis. And how did you come about this information?

Shields. Well I was down on the floor when they hollered out and sayin’ how ‘I see you’, I don’t know, I think he said, ‘I drive to here.’ He says, ‘I dropped him off at the building.’

[[note: Shields' wording at this point is difficult to decipher. This transcription differs slightly from a commonly-quoted transcription of these lines reading "Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: 'I dropped him off at the building'."]]

Davis. Hm-hm.

Shields. Now whoever was hollering and asked him I don’t know.

Davis. Hm-hm. OK. This is the morning of the assassination. 

Shields. Hm-hm.

Davis. Somebody hollered out the window at Frazier and saying, “Where is your rider?”

Shields. Hm-hm.

Davis. And, and to your recollection Frazier says, “I dropped him off at the building”. 

Shields. Yes.

Davis. Alright. OK. Alright. Now, the guy that—or the person that asked Frazier where was his rider, where was he? Was he in the Book Depository when he yelled out, uh--?

Shields. He’s at the warehouse, uh, sittin’ at the back--

Davis. Where you were?

Shields. Uh-huh. Houston Street.

Davis. Uh-huh.

Shields. And he was parking on the back—

Davis. Right.

Shields. --on the back lot out there—

David. Uh-huh.

Shields. –and he hollered out and asked him where’s his rider, and he said, ‘I dropped him off at the building’.

Davis. OK. Now, have you told me something about venetian blinds—

Shields. Uh-huh.

Davis. --in connection with Oswald? Will you tell me about that now? 

Shields. Well the thing about the venetian blinds, when he got out of the car that morning he had a package with him. He asked him what it was, and he told him it was venetian blinds he was gonna have cleaned. 

Davis. Um-hm.

Shields. That was in—

Davis. Did you see a package?

Shields. No I did not. I was at the warehouse. That’s what they told me up there.

Davis. Alright. Now what you tell me now is what you heard--

Shields. Yeah.

Davis. --from up in the building. Can you tell me any one individual that told you that?

Shields. No I could not.

Davis. But they did talk about him having a package—

Shields. Yes.

Davis. --containing venetian blinds?

Shields. Yeah. A long package.

Davis. Alright. Do you know if anybody in that building ever found any venetian blinds?

Shields. No they did not. What they find was after the assassination was that rifle.

((someone else)) Do you know if anyone looked for any blinds?

Shields. No they did not. They just went by what he said.

Davis. How about, uh, Jack Dougherty?

Shields. He’s still workin’ there with me.

Davis. He works with you? 

Shields. Yeah he’s still there.

Davis. Out <<rigor>> roa—out at, uh, <<ambass>>--

Shields. Out at <<ambassador>>

Davis. <<ambassador>>?

Shields. Yes.

Davis. OK. Do you have a phone number and an address on him?

Shields. He should be listed in the book there. He’s on marsell--he lives on Marsallis.

Davis. Lives on Marsallis. 

Shields. Oh right around here, right up at the ‘C’ here--

Davis. He’s in the book. OK. How about, uh, Bonnie Ray Williams?

Shields. Now I haven’t seen him.

Davis. Do you believe that he’s still in the Dallas area?

Shields. Now that I couldn’t answer.

Davis. Alright. Do you know where Jack Dougherty and Bonnie Ray Williams were on that day—

Shields. They were on the s—

Davis. --the day of the assassination?

Shields. They were on the sixth floor with him.

Davis. Now wait a minute. They were on the sixth floor with him? You mean—

Shields. With Oswald.

Davis. With Oswald?

Shields. Yes.

((other voice)). They told you this?

Shields. Yeah.

Davis. Did they tell you this themselves?

Shields. Yeah, they all came to ask him when was he going down. And he said no, I’m gonna stay up here.

Shields. Alright. Did they give you any time frame as to when this was? Was this before the shooting? After the shooting?

Shields. It was before the shooting, ‘cause they’s all going down for lunch. And the parade is starting at lunchtime, at twelve.

Davis. Alright. Now, let, let me understand this. You’re telling me that Bonnie Ray Williams and Jack Dougherty were on the sixth floor, with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Shields. Yes.

Davis. Before the shooting? 

Shields. Yes.

Davis. They asked him if he would--if he was going down.

Shields. Yes.

Davis. And Oswald said ‘no’?

Shields. Yes. He was going to stay up there and look at the parade through the window.

Davis. He’s gonna stay there and look at the parade through the window. Do you know how they came downstairs? That’s the other two.

Shields. Well they must have came down on the elev--see they have a freight elevator there. And they really could walk but that is so slow they usually ride the elevator.

Davis. Did, did Bonnie Ray Williams tell you this himself?

Shields. Yes.

Davis. Did Jack Dougherty tell you this?

Shields. Yes.

Davis. Alright. When did they tell you about this?

Shields. That was the day after the assassination, the next day.

Davis. The next day.

Shields. Yes.

[END of tape excerpt]

[Denis Morissette]

DAVIS.  …. Shields. Alright. Did they go

[Greg Doudna]

20 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:

DAVIS.  …. Shields. Alright. Did they go

And the answer Denis: Hm-hm. 🙂