Jackie Kennedy and the assassination of JFK

[Tim Carroll]

Ted Kennedy, Tip O'Neil and Kitty Dukakis all told me!

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Shanet:

Those are pretty good sources; from your time in Massachusetts? I hope you'll read my earlier post on this thread from earlier today (Post #24). I really worked at trying to provide detailed, thoughtful responses to Tim Gratz's stuff.

Tim

Edited December 10, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[Wim Dankbaar]

Yeah Tim,

I was just adding another theory that is out there. Did you not notice the smile?

Wim

[Tim Carroll]

Yeah Tim, 

I was just adding another theory that is out there.  Did you not notice the smile?

Wim

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Wim,

Yes; I noticed the smile, and while I'm not completely lacking a sense of humor, did you notice in my response that I asked you a direct question about Marilyn Monroe?

Tim

[Shanet Clark]

Jackie was waiting to use the bathroom one evening at Hyannis. Ted Kennedy, who had been toasting, went first, then Tip O'Neill who wasn't feeling well, then Kitty Dukakis, who cut in line.

The next morning Jackie ran hot water heater taps to all her toilets.

[Tim Carroll]

Jackie was waiting to use the bathroom one evening at Hyannis. Ted Kennedy, who had been toasting, went first, then Tip O'neill who wasn't feeling well, then Kitty Dukakis, who cut in line. 

The next morning Jackie ran hot water heater taps to all her toilets.

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I see plenty of opportunity for overspill in the above scenario, but fail to see how warm toilet bowl water would address that problem.

[Dawn Meredith]

Jackie was waiting to use the bathroom one evening at Hyannis. Ted Kennedy, who had been toasting, went first, then Tip O'neill who wasn't feeling well, then Kitty Dukakis, who cut in line. 

The next morning Jackie ran hot water heater taps to all her toilets.

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I see plenty of opportunity for overspill in the above scenario, but fail to see how warm toilet bowl water would address that problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

_________________________

Thank you Tim for the valient attempts to save this thread. The notion that the Russians killed JFk is beyond nonsense, like Tim said, same as the Castro did it crap, which we all know was disinformation begun very early on, and continued via, Jack Anderson throught the 70's

Don't waste time reading J Epstein, except his one good book, Inquest, he's disinfo.

The "love triange" theroy does not even rate a response. Wim I am surprised that you would post it, even as a joke. Guess I too have no sense of humor on this subject. The notion that Jackie would conspire to kill her husband is beyond disinformation, it's plain sick.

Lot's of rabbit trails here people. Just what the conspirators love, have the CT's running in circles while they sit back at some Langley type office in laughter at this mass confusion.

It was planned and executed- (no pun intended)-by home grown elite. Books to the contrary are for people with too much time on their hands,IMHO.

Dawn

[Shanet Clark]

Re Dawn:"Thank you Tim for the valient attempts to save this thread."

The thread was in poor shape.

The KGB probably sent Nosenko over as the top man who had knowledge that he wasn't a double agent. When I say triple agent, this is not that far from Oswald's profile. He went over (or was he pushed) in 1959.

He stays in USSR until 1962 and then eases back into the US. With both sides watching (military veteran defectors to Cold War antagonist states) then if Oswald went looking for Kostikov in Mexico City, that was a the approach of a triple agent.

This alone, along with the Cubella alert, the Kostikov alert, show that the KGB had some level of knowledge, but no we shouldn't just stop and say "the Russkies" and shrug...no.

More interesting than the Aristotle Onassis theme is the Pappas Nixon theme, concerning long running corrupt US Greek activities.

The general situation concerning Cuba and the mercenary turncoat forces lead to a cursory look at the KGB. Is this what a speculative Maxwell Taylor or an alleged Edwin Walker would want you to think. The CIA was responding, apparently, less than initiating.

Dawn: Please don't cruelly reduce Jay Epstein to "disinfo"

While his conclusions are often conventional, and he takes much of the record on its face, his analysis of Nosenko and George DeMorenschidt points to the theories expressed in the FORUM. He simply takes a very thought provoking but highly defensible line and lets theorists do what they will.

For example, Epstein takes the Mexico City visits at face value. The US intercepted telephone or room mikes where Oswald was in the Cuban and Russian embassies. How is that disinfo, that is totally damning information?

Oswald looking through Mexico City embassies for thirteenth section men like KOSTIKOV and NOSENKO. The photos show someone else, the tapes that generated the reports are lost, what else is Epstein to say. His counter defector is inside Cuban and Soviet Western Hemisphere embassies.

It is a disappointment to follow Epstein too closely, but he is accurate and insightful, and certainly undeserving of the reductive charge.....

Edited December 10, 2004 by Shanet Clark

[Tim Gratz]

_________________________

Thank you Tim for the valient attempts to save this thread. The notion that the Russians killed JFk is beyond nonsense, like Tim said, same as the Castro did it crap,  which we all know was disinformation begun very early on, and continued via, Jack Anderson throught the 70's

Don't waste time reading J Epstein, except his one good book, Inquest, he's disinfo.

Lot's of rabbit trails here people. Just what the conspirators love, have the CT's running in circles while they sit back at some Langley type  office in laughter at this mass confusion.

It was planned and executed- (no pun intended)-by home grown elite.  Books to the contrary are for people with too much time on their hands,IMHO.

Dawn

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Dawn:

First, you misspelled "valiant".

Second, it is interesting that you would characterize the "Brehznev did it" theory advanced by Trento (no CIA apologist) without reading his book. You find any books that do not fit your pet theory as a waste of time. IMO, anyone who is not willing to consider all of the evidence is NOT really interested in discovering who killed JFK and why.

I suppose it was merely a coincidence that Cubela 1) refused to take a polygraph test; 2) demanded to receive assurance that his plan to "eliminate" Castro had the personal support of RFK; 3) met with Kostikov in Mexico City; and 4) had ties to Santo Trafficante (who was recorded on an FBI tape as saying "Now only two of us know (who killed JFK)."

It was a coincidence that Trafficante was funding Castro's intelligence agents in the US through rigged bolita games and was, per several sources, running drugs into the US through Cuba.

It was a coincidence that Jack Ruby visited Trafficante in Trescornia and was, by some reports, instrumental in obtaining Trafficante's release.

It was coincidental that Trafficante was the only mafioso involved in the CIA/mafia plots to die a natural death.

It was also just a coincidence that Castro and a large entourage of his closest advisers spent four plus weeks in Moscow shortly after Cuban exiles sank a Soviet freighter in Havana harbor.

It was a coincidence that several Cuban exiles on a mission to kill Castro were captured in Cuba in late 1963 and confessed that the CIA put them up to it.

It was a coincidence that Gilberto Lopez left Key West for Trafficante's home town of Tampa around this same time; and that Lopez was in Texas on November 22, 1963 and was the lone passenger on a Cubana airlines flight from Mexico City to Havana on Nov 27, 1963.

And the fact that an independent expert determined (blindly) that Nosenko's polygraph indicated deception when he answered "No" to the question: "Was Oswald a KGB agent" means nothing (since it contradicts your pet theory).

I respectfully submit that anyone who truly cherishes the memory of JFK ought to be interested in seeking the truth behind his murder even if it conflicts with a preconceived theory. To not even be willing to consider evidence to the contrary (i.e. don't waste your time reading books by educated, experienced investigative journalists) suggests a mind closed to truth-seeking.

[Tim Gratz]

Ted Kennedy, Tip O'Neil and Kitty Dukakis all told me!

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Shanet:

Those are pretty good sources; from your time in Massachusetts? I hope you'll read my earlier post on this thread from earlier today (Post #24). I really worked at trying to provide detailed, thoughtful responses to Tim Gratz's stuff.

Tim

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Tim your post #24 was thoughtful indeed and I agreed with a lot of stuff in it. In fact, I want to start a separate thread on assassination as an instrument of foreign policy: is it ever justified? But I'm going to (some day soon) respond to your post #24 in this thread.

[Tim Carroll]

It was a coincidence that Trafficante was funding Castro's intelligence agents in the US through rigged bolita games and was, per several sources, running drugs into the US through Cuba.

It was a coincidence that Jack Ruby visited Trafficante in Trescornia and was, by some reports, instrumental in obtaining Trafficante's release.

It was coincidental that Trafficante was the only mafioso involved in the CIA/mafia plots to die a natural death.

It was also just a coincidence that Castro and a large entourage of his closest advisers spent four plus weeks in Moscow shortly after Cuban exiles sank a Soviet freighter in Havana harbor.

It was a coincidence that several Cuban exiles on a mission to kill Castro were captured in Cuba in late 1963 and confessed that the CIA put them up to it.

It was a coincidence that Gilberto Lopez left Key West for Trafficante's home town of Tampa around this same time; and that Lopez was in Texas on November 22, 1963 and was the lone passenger on a Cubana airlines flight from Mexico City to Havana on Nov 27, 1963.

I respectfully submit that anyone who truly cherishes the memory of JFK ought to be interested in seeking the truth behind his murder even if it conflicts with a preconceived theory.  To not even be willing to consider evidence to the contrary (i.e. don't waste your time reading books by educated, experienced investigative journalists) suggests a mind closed to truth-seeking.

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I find the Castro-Trafficante connections to be very important. They not only imply that Trafficante was in league with Castro, but further, they imply that the use of Trafficante as a conduit to many anti-Castro operations may have been misplaced - that Trafficante's posturing as anti-Castro was a bit of a charade. As Tim Gratz points out, this leads to a new perspective of analysis. I agree with him that we musn't hold our cherished beliefs and preconceived theories so closely that we become oblivious to contravening information. And I definitely want to be clear that I don't go for the Epstein as CIA agent stuff. While it could be true, I have never seen reason for such suspicion. When I mentioned losing brain cells over his stuff on Angleton being counter, or counter-counter, or counter-counter-counter intelligence, it is because Epstein did about as good a job as possible with a subject that is itself a quagmire for any thoughtful inquiry.

Tim Carroll

Edited December 11, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[Shanet Clark]

Thanks Tim

The reductive and dismissive phrase used for Mr. Epstein was disinfo, and that is unfair. In LEGEND his biography of Oswald, he sets an international backdrop concerning KOSTIKOV, CUBELLA and NOSENKO. It stands to reason that the most popularly available trade books would have a conventional and strict style. While Epstein doesn't draw the same conclusions that Ron Ecker, Jim Root or I might is not because his research is biased, it is only limited, by very clear limits to documents....when a man ties DeMorenschildt and the Nosenko into the JFK murder, he has done a public service, whatever he may say about 11/22/63.

Trafficante was the caribean member of the Giancana Marcello Trafficante system, which Meyer Lansky and JOHNNY ROSELLI were part of and his Tampa operations was Cuban and domestic US interference point. MARITA LORENZ sheds light here.

[Tim Carroll]

The reductive and dismissive phrase used for Mr. Epstein was disinfo, and that is unfair...when a man ties DeMorenschildt and the Nosenko into the JFK murder, he has done a public service, whatever he may say about 11/22/63.

Trafficante was the caribbean member of the Giancana Marcello Trafficante system, which Meyer Lansky and JOHNNY ROSELLI were part of and his Tampa operations was Cuban and domestic US interference point.  MARITA LORENZ sheds light here.

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Shanet:

I wish you would quote the "reductive and dismissive phrase" you refer to being applied to Epstein. I hope it isn't anything you think I said, as I admire Epstein's work and consider him to have wrestled with complexities that are difficult to read, let alone write. Let me repeat yours and Epstein's public service by emphasizing that the deMorenschildt information has never received proper scrutiny. If there is anything in the morass of JFK assassination material of which I'm sure, it is that deMorenschildt was Oswald's Dallas handler, and that his White Russian (czarist) connections lead directly to both the CIA and the local Big Oil magnates.

As with the Angleton-Nosenko business, the Trafficante-Castro relationship has been confused and largely unrecognized. I'm going to cite an obscure source regarding the anti-Castro plots run through Trafficante, The Last Mafioso, by Jimmy Fratianno. I hope that quotes of bad language will not offend:

"Roselli's blue eyes hardened. 'Jimmy, I'm going to tell you something you won't believe.... This whole thing has been a scam. Santo [Trafficante] never did nothing but bullxxxx everybody. All these f***ing wild schemes the CIA dreamed up never got further than Santo. He just sat on it, conned everybody into thinking that guys were risking their lives sneaking into Cuba, having boats shot out from under them, all bulls**t....' Roselli shook his head. 'All for nothing. What a terrible waste of a lifetime opportunity. Imagine, Jimmy, if we'd knocked off Castro. Think of the power....'" [pgs 235-236]

Years later Joseph Shimon would tell the Church Committee that "as far as Maheu was concerned it was 'Johnny's contract.' As for Giancana, Shimon said that the Chicago Mafia boss had told him that 'I'm not in it, and they [the CIA] are asking me for the names of some guys who used to work in casinos.... Maheu's conning the hell out of the CIA." [pg 236]

After Giancana was murdered in 1975, Roselli noted, "You remember Joe Shimon, don't you? He was with us on the Castro plot, former Washington police inspector. We've talked about Sam's murder, the three of us were close, and he thinks Santo [Trafficante] made a deal with Castro. Remember when Santo was jailed and they grabbed his money when Castro came into power, then suddenly he was released with all his money? Shimon thinks he's a Castro agent spying on Cubans in Florida. Sam shared that suspicion. That's why Santo sat on his ass and did nothing with all that sh*t we gave him. He was probably reporting everything to Castro's agents, and Miami's full of them." [pg 390]

There is evidence that some kind of relationship did exist between Trafficante and Castro which allowed Trafficante to run drugs through Cuba. The question of what Castro received in return has merit.

Tim

Edited December 11, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[Tim Gratz]

The reductive and dismissive phrase used for Mr. Epstein was disinfo, and that is unfair...when a man ties DeMorenschildt and the Nosenko into the JFK murder, he has done a public service, whatever he may say about 11/22/63.

Trafficante was the caribbean member of the Giancana Marcello Trafficante system, which Meyer Lansky and JOHNNY ROSELLI were part of and his Tampa operations was Cuban and domestic US interference point.  MARITA LORENZ sheds light here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shanet:

I wish you would quote the "reductive and dismissive phrase" you refer to being applied to Epstein. I hope it isn't anything you think I said, as I admire Epstein's work and consider him to have wrestled with complexities that are difficult to read, let alone write. Let me repeat yours and Epstein's public service by emphasizing that the deMorenschildt information has never received proper scrutiny. If there is anything in the morass of JFK assassination material of which I'm sure, it is that deMorenschildt was Oswald's Dallas handler, and that his White Russian (czarist) connections lead directly to both the CIA and the local Big Oil magnates.

As with the Angleton-Nosenko business, the Trafficante-Castro relationship has been confused and largely unrecognized. I'm going to cite an obscure source regarding the anti-Castro plots run through Trafficante, The Last Mafioso, by Jimmy Fratianno. I hope that quotes of bad language will not offend:

"Roselli's blue eyes hardened. 'Jimmy, I'm going to tell you something you won't believe.... This whole thing has been a scam. Santo [Trafficante] never did nothing but bullxxxx everybody. All these f***ing wild schemes the CIA dreamed up never got further than Santo. He just sat on it, conned everybody into thinking that guys were risking their lives sneaking into Cuba, having boats shot out from under them, all bulls**t....' Roselli shook his head. 'All for nothing. What a terrible waste of a lifetime opportunity. Imagine, Jimmy, if we'd knocked off Castro. Think of the power....'" [pgs 235-236]

Years later Joseph Shimon would tell the Church Committee that "as far as Maheu was concerned it was 'Johnny's contract.' As for Giancana, Shimon said that the Chicago Mafia boss had told him that 'I'm not in it, and they [the CIA] are asking me for the names of some guys who used to work in casinos.... Maheu's conning the hell out of the CIA." [pg 236]

After Giancana was murdered in 1975, Roselli noted, "You remember Joe Shimon, don't you? He was with us on the Castro plot, former Washington police inspector. We've talked about Sam's murder, the three of us were close, and he thinks Santo [Trafficante] made a deal with Castro. Remember when Santo was jailed and they grabbed his money when Castro came into power, then suddenly he was released with all his money? Shimon thinks he's a Castro agent spying on Cubans in Florida. Sam shared that suspicion. That's why Santo sat on his ass and did nothing with all that sh*t we gave him. He was probably reporting everything to Castro's agents, and Miami's full of them." [pg 390]

There is evidence that some kind of relationship did exist between Trafficante and Castro which allowed Trafficante to run drugs through Cuba. The question of what Castro received in return has merit.

Tim

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Excellent post! I am inserting below portions of an article by investigative journalist George Crile (posted in another thread by George Crile) re a possible link between Castro and Trafficante:

"The most intriguing theory was proposed by the CIA's deputy inspector general, Scott Breckenridge, to a Senate staff member. Breckenridge, who had been responsible for investigating the CIA-Mafia plot, maintained that Trafficante had been providing Castro with details of the plot all along.

"But why would Santo Trafficante, of all people, do this? One possible explanation is proposed in a July 21, 1961, report on Trafficante by the. Federal Bureau of Narcotics: "There are unconfirmed rumors in the Cuban Refugee population in Miami that, when Fidel Castro ran the American racketeers out of Cuba and seized the casinos he kept Santo Trafficante Jr. in jail to make it appear that he had a personal dislike for Trafficante when in fact Trafficante is an agent of Castro. Trafficante is allegedly Castro's outlet for illegal contraband in the country."

"The report goes on to summarize contradictory reports on Trafficante's relationship with Castro but because of its date, the allegations quoted are of great interest. Back in 1961, the Mafia's anti-Castro credentials were impeccable. The informants relied on by the narcotics agents may have been wrong in their conclusions, but it is hard to think of a possible self-serving motive for fabricating such a story.

"There are other indications that there may have been some working arrangement between Castro and the mob. Several reliable witnesses - most notably Grayston Lynch, who was a senior case officer with the CIA in Miami for eight years - assert that during the crucial early 1960s Castro relied on Cuban Mafia contacts for much of his intelligence in the exile community. And once again Santo Trafficante emerges as a central figure, for Castro is reported to have paid off his Mafia agents through the Florida numbers racket - Bolta - which Trafficante runs.

"Here another Bureau of Narcotics report - this one prepared by agent Eugene Marshall - is instructive: ' . . . Fidel Castro has operatives in Tampa and Miami making heavy Bolita bets with Santo Trafficante Jr.'s organization. The winning Bolita numbers are taken from the last three digits of the lottery drawing in Cuba every Saturday night.' According to this report, prior to the drawing, these operatives communicate with Cuba and advise which numbers are receiving the heaviest play. The Cuba lottery officials then rig the drawing . . ." According to this report and others, Castro's agents wore robbing Trafficante or a large share of his profit. The Narcotics Bureau was afraid that, if Trafficante's Bolita operation were ruined, he would concentrate even more on the drug trade.

"But Trafficante was in an even better position than the feds to know about raids on his profits. Had he chosen to, he could have solved the problem overnight by shifting the payoff numbers from the Havana lottery to the weekly dog races in Miami, as he finally did to the late 1960s. If, then, these reports are to be believed, Trafficante’s Bolita may have served as one of the pad masters to the Cuban intelligence network in the United States."

Given the many sources that link Trafficante to the Kennedy assassination (including his recorded statement and alleged confession to his attorney re his involvement) (and his organization's link to the Rosselli murder) the implications of a Castro-Trafficante link (combined with a Trafficante-Cubela link) cannot be easily dismiised.

Edited December 12, 2004 by Tim Gratz