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My point is that until something better is devised NATO has worked for several decades to LARGELY bring stability to Europe. Bumping up payments is fine but not required IMO. To suggest the UN could handle the differences that always arise in that region is about the same as turning it over to a barnyard full of sheep. A lot of bleeting and dashing about. The best chance I suppose would have been a successful EU but that's not on top of Putin's list either.

Re Trump I want you to know that I've soloed an airplane which makes me more qualified to fly your next airline trip than Trump is qualified to run a democratic republic. The nonsense about bringing a new "perspective" to the job may be okay for advisers but I think we're better off without mobbed-up, narcissistic, sociopaths running the country. It showed in Helsinki as Putin, the professional, made the President look completely idiotic and out-classed. I shutter to think what went on behind closed doors...

I hope the Trump apologists don't jump to defend him if he somehow sits down with a professional interrogator(s) like Mueller and his team. I've been in that position and those people are unbelievable at extracting information and probing testimony. I doubt he'd survive his presidency.

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Any attempt by one sovereign state to attack and overthrow the leadership of another sovereign state needs to be robustly protested.”

Cliff, you are wildly exaggerating a small scale operation (less than $200,000) which at this time remains an allegation/assertion. There was no regime change - no one was forced from office. The allegations involve an attempt at persuasion during an election campaign, which may have involved securing the publication of allegedly stolen digital files. Otherwise you are talking about a few obscure Facebook ads. The manipulation of election lists described by Greg Palast is a far more pervasive problem in distorting electoral preferences, and that’s a homegrown problem. As is the lack of any curbs on electoral spending and contributions, encouraging a few big interests to hijack the candidates. Not to mention the huge influence in Congressional politics of foreign interests such as Israel and Saudi Arabia, etc.

Kirk, your information on Assange’s communications with both Trumps is based on unverified emails  leaked to CBS and CNN by unnamed persons involved with the Congressional investigations. Assange strongly denied ever sending such communications. Assange is a target for arrest and summary judgment for publishing secret government documents which reveal criminal and corrupt behaviour at high levels of government - much like the Pentagon Papers. Mueller’s Friday Indictment indicates that Wikileaks/Assange will be, among other things, put on trial for handling “stolen” information, also like the Pentagon Papers. Assange’s reputation has been assiduously smeared in the press for some years now, and I fully expect the worst will happen to him and a sadly large amount of otherwise smart empathetic people will approve of it.

British diplomat Craig Murray - who has unquestioned integrity - also insists the material handed over to Wikileaks was from an insider, i.e. a leak.

The point of the Indictment being handed to a Justice Department division which doesn’t follow through on court proceedings is that it underlines the fact that the Indictment was a political stunt designed to damage if not scuttle the Putin/Trump meeting. The Justice Department had no intention of following up, and were simply content to place a series of untested allegations into the public record - with the predictable ensuing hysteria.

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Posted (edited)

‘The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing heatedly over which is the truth.’ Ezra Pound — of all people! — who, nevertheless, probably knew a bit about techniques of infamy. The “traditional” neocons, those who came into their own during GW’s reign, and are now laughably trying to pass themselves off as the defenders of democracy, have designated Russia as the Global Villain and any attempt  by that country to exert influence anywhere Is looked upon as a threat to the USA’s world hegemony. So, no matter who comes out on top in this Deep State/Trump battle, it’s a lose lose situation for the American people.

Edited by Steve Cearfoss
Correction

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

 

Any attempt by one sovereign state to attack and overthrow the leadership of another sovereign state needs to be robustly protested.”

Cliff, you are wildly exaggerating a small scale operation (less than $200,000) which at this time remains an allegation/assertion.

Jeff, allow me to clarify my position.  Here are the 6 reasons (in my view) Hillary Clinton lost the 2016 election, in order of significance:

1) the Republican voter suppression campaign led by Kansas Sec. of State Kris Kobach, including restrictive Voter ID laws and voter registration purge programs like Crosscheck.  300,000 voters in Wisconsin disenfranchised, a half million in Michigan and another half million in North Carolina --- 7 million mostly minority voters nationwide.

2)  James Comey and the New York office of the FBI with the utterly phony reopening of Clinton's e-mail investigation 11 days before the election.  Trump was on the ropes down double digits in the polls...and then the last 11 days was an unrelenting stream of anti-Clinton news coverage.

3)  Hillary Clinton's poor campaign.

4)  Bill Clinton's poor judgement meeting AG Loretta Lynch at the airport.

5)  Cable news obsession with Trump hiked their ratings.  Trump got billions of dollars in free advertising, his lies were rarely countered.

6)  Vladimir and Julian Show. 

All 6 of the above had to happen for Clinton to lose.

Putin punked the American public.  Without all that other stuff it would have amounted to a prank. 

I'm not mad at Putin -- I'm pissed at Traitor Trump.

Quote

There was no regime change - no one was forced from office.

The Democrats were forced from the executive, giving Republicans control over new appointments to the Judiciary.

It was regime change in 1968 when Thieu torpedoed the Democratic peace deal; regime change in 1980 when the embassy hostages were kept to advantage Reagan; regime change in 2000 when the Democrats were Fox'd out of the White House; and then 2016.

Soft coup d'etat.

Quote

The allegations involve an attempt at persuasion during an election campaign, which may have involved securing the publication of allegedly stolen digital files. Otherwise you are talking about a few obscure Facebook ads. The manipulation of election lists described by Greg Palast is a far more pervasive problem in distorting electoral preferences, and that’s a homegrown problem.

Agreed, see above.

Quote

As is the lack of any curbs on electoral spending and contributions, encouraging a few big interests to hijack the candidates.

Due to the regime change in 2000 the Republicans put judges on the Supreme Court who allowed unlimited spending on campaigns.

Elections have consequences.

Quote

 

Not to mention the huge influence in Congressional politics of foreign interests such as Israel and Saudi Arabia, etc.

Kirk, your information on Assange’s communications with both Trumps is based on unverified emails  leaked to CBS and CNN by unnamed persons involved with the Congressional investigations. Assange strongly denied ever sending such communications. Assange is a target for arrest and summary judgment for publishing secret government documents which reveal criminal and corrupt behaviour at high levels of government - much like the Pentagon Papers. Mueller’s Friday Indictment indicates that Wikileaks/Assange will be, among other things, put on trial for handling “stolen” information, also like the Pentagon Papers. Assange’s reputation has been assiduously smeared in the press for some years now, and I fully expect the worst will happen to him and a sadly large amount of otherwise smart empathetic people will approve of it.

British diplomat Craig Murray - who has unquestioned integrity - also insists the material handed over to Wikileaks was from an insider, i.e. a leak.

The point of the Indictment being handed to a Justice Department division which doesn’t follow through on court proceedings is that it underlines the fact that the Indictment was a political stunt designed to damage if not scuttle the Putin/Trump meeting.

Trump had no business meeting Putin under these circumstances.

Quote

 

The Justice Department had no intention of following up, and were simply content to place a series of untested allegations into the public record - with the predictable ensuing hysteria.

The hysteria is of Trump's own making.

Edited by Cliff Varnell

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‘The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing heatedly over which is the truth.’ Ezra Pound — of all people! — who, nevertheless, probably knew a bit about techniques of infamy. The “traditional” neocons, those who came into their own during GW’s reign, and are now laughably trying to pass themselves off as the defenders of democracy, have designated Russia as the Global Villain and any attempt  by that country to exert influence anywhere Is looked upon as a threat to the USA’s world hegemony. So, no matter who comes out on top in this Deep State/Trump battle, it’s a lose-lose situation for the American people.

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Posted (edited)

Trump himself gave the go-ahead to Rod Rosenstein to hand out 12 Russian hacker indictments prior to Putin meeting

 
 

Republican leaders and the Wall Street Journal‘s Michael Mukasey attacked deputy attorney general Rod Rosenstein for the 12 indictments of Russian hackers last week as politically motivated.

Leading with the headline, “The Russia Indictments: Why Now?,” Mukasey wrote “the plain effect of the announcement was to raise further doubts about the wisdom of the meeting—and perhaps to shape its agenda.”

Today, however, it was announced that the president himself approved the roll-out of the 12 indictments prior to leaving for the NATO meeting and Russia summit, Bloomberg news reported.

Trump reportedly made the move “in the hopes it would strengthen his hand in the talks, according to accounts from people familiar with the decision.”

Rosenstein gave Trump the option of before the summit or after. Trump chose the former.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/07/trump-gave-go-ahead-rod-rosenstein-hand-12-russian-hacker-indictments-prior-putin-meeting/

 

Edited by Cliff Varnell

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Trump himself gave the go-ahead to Rod Rosenstein to hand out 12 Russian hacker indictments prior to Putin meeting

 
 

Republican leaders and the Wall Street Journal‘s Michael Mukasey attacked deputy attorney general Rod Rosenstein for the 12 indictments of Russian hackers last week as politically motivated.

Leading with the headline, “The Russia Indictments: Why Now?,” Mukasey wrote “the plain effect of the announcement was to raise further doubts about the wisdom of the meeting—and perhaps to shape its agenda.”

Today, however, it was announced that the president himself approved the roll-out of the 12 indictments prior to leaving for the NATO meeting and Russia summit, Bloomberg news reported.

Trump reportedly made the move “in the hopes it would strengthen his hand in the talks, according to accounts from people familiar with the decision.”

Rosenstein gave Trump the option of before the summit or after. Trump chose the former.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/07/trump-gave-go-ahead-rod-rosenstein-hand-12-russian-hacker-indictments-prior-putin-meeting/

 

Hmmm Cliff,  So the article says that Trump had his choice whether to have Rosenstein release the indictments before he met Putin or after and he chose to have them released before??? During the  joint press conference, Trump does have this crumpled look of a guy who made a really stupid choice and must now face the consequences. I wonder if in the private meetings, Putin chewed Trump out for giving the press the perfect ammunition to use at their press conference! And all the while Trump thought that might actually give him leverage??? Boy was that a rude awakening! WHAT AN IDIOT!!!!   BWA-HA-HA! 

:flame:help😖

Hey, do you guys know it's emoji week? I was looking for one that would convey hysterical laughter, but I couldn't find one.

P.S. I thought it would be a complete abomination if Mueller was to give Trump all his interrogation questions ahead of time, but now maybe  I'm not so sure. Do you really think he could still screw it up in the interview? I guess at the heart of that question is, does Trump really learn from his mistakes? Anyway, I guess we'll stay tuned.

Edited by Kirk Gallaway

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Steve:

That is a great quote.  And it really applies to all this.

Jeff, that is interesting about Assange's denial.  If you read that article I linked to, the powers that be are really after this guy.  I mean even to the point of making a negative movie about him, which of course, was produced by Dreamworks.

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https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/17/politics/trump-putin-russia-claim-military-agreements/index.html

 

“The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation is ready for practical implementation of the agreements reached between Russian President Vladimir Putin and US President Donald Trump in the sphere of international security achieved at the Helsinki summit," Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov, a Russian military spokesman, said in a statement Tuesday. The Russian military "is ready to intensify contacts with the US colleagues in the General Staff and other available channels to discuss the extension of the START treaty, cooperation in Syria, as well as other issues of ensuring military security," Konashenkov said.

The National Security Council would not confirm what Trump had agreed to in the one-on-one with Putin. A spokesman for the NSC told CNN on Tuesday that they were still "reviewing the discussion."

"The Helsinki summit was the beginning of a process between the United States and Russia to reduce tensions and advance areas of cooperation in our mutual interest," the spokesman said. "We are reviewing the discussion between President Trump and President Putin, considering possible next steps, and have nothing further to announce at this time."

The Pentagon declined to comment.”

 

Steve Thomas

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They told lies to start the Vietnam war, they told lies to start the Iraq war, now they are telling lies to start a war with Russia.  If Hillary was in charge we would all be glowing by now.

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5 hours ago, Paul Price said:

They told lies to start the Vietnam war, they told lies to start the Iraq war, now they are telling lies to start a war with Russia.  If Hillary was in charge we would all be glowing by now.

No one is talking about going to war with Russia except the desperate Trump fanatics.

What a crock!

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Trump is telling us lies to go to war with Iran.

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And I've been reading a lot today about his and Tucker's conversation about Montenegro, and their aggressiveness. All 600,000 of them (rolls eyes)  Also read that Putin wants Montenegro, which is why Trump is currently dissing it. We'll see. I sure hope it's not true. But I won't hold my breath.

 

Look, I don't care if he went over to talk to Putin. That's fine. And I think the Mueller indictments coming before that might have been a red flag to Trump to be careful with what he says to  Russia, because there are indictments. While some of you say they may not be true, well, they may be true, so not a time to throw caution to the wind.  Good to let the Head of State know what's going on at home ,init.

Mt problem with Trump is that God only knows what he said behind closed doors.  The guy gave classified information to the Russians when they visited the White House. I shudder to think what he told Putin. Pretty bad when you can't trust the Commander in Chief to keep secrets.

 

 

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