Where is the exit?

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

15 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

That's a conclusion based on the physical evidence, which you are trying to re-write.

And to support this scenario you just make stuff up.

  The brace was wrapped around his waist -- how in hell is that going to displace two inches of his skin on his upper back?

But your interpretation is not based on anything you can replicate.  The skin was pushed up 2 inches?

Show us.

Prove your hypothesis.  Show us how tight you'd have to cinch a back brace to push two inches of skin above the top of the back.

Otherwise you're pulling this stuff out of your nether zone.

 

Where is the physical evidence that shows that JFK was shot from the front?

Below is an autopsy image of JFK's back.  His back looks like it is made up of creepy skin.  I can see that the skin around his neck looks like an accordion.  The bottom part of his back looks like there is serious creepy skin there that will stretch substantially.   

Cliff, I am sure you have seen this image before and you are basing your claim on JFK's skin is as tight as the bottom of a newborn.  Have you done any testing that you can share with us to back up your claim that the bullet hole in the back is actually two inches lower than the T1 hairline fracture?

I will venture out and assume that someone dressed JFK and would put the brace on him.  If that is the case, would stretching the skin alleviate his back pain.  There is clearly creepy skin in his lower back that suggests that his skin may have been pushed up.

Also, I want to add that the bullet hole in JFK's back is irregular with the top of the hole larger than the bottom of the hole.  This boasts my hypothesis that his skin may have been somewhat stretched upward and possibly bunched up.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Keyvan Shahrdar

[Cliff Varnell]

39 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

Where is the physical evidence that shows that JFK was shot from the front?

The clothing evidence and the authenticated cervical x-ray.

The bullet holes in the clothes align with T3 -- the x-ray shows a hairline fracture at T1.

That T1 damage could only have been caused by a shot to the throat from the front.

39 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

Below is an autopsy image of JFK's back. 

No, it's a demonstrably fake photo.

39 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

 

His back looks like it is made up of creepy skin.  I can see that the skin around his neck looks like an accordion.  The bottom part of his back looks like there is serious creepy skin there that will stretch substantially.   

Your appetite for fantasy is grim.

39 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

Cliff, I am sure you have seen this image before and you are basing your claim on JFK's skin is as tight as the bottom of a newborn. 

You're saying Kennedy had a medical condition which caused two inches of his skin to stretch up above the top of his back.

At this point we're deep into unproductive Fake Debate and you go on ignore.

 

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

1 minute ago, Cliff Varnell said:

The clothing evidence and the authenticated cervical x-ray.

The bullet holes in the clothes align with T3 -- the x-ray shows a hairline fracture at T1.

That T1 damage could only have been caused by a shot to the throat from the front.

No, it's a demonstrably fake photo.

Your appetite for fantasy is grim.

You're saying Kennedy had a medical condition which caused two inches of his skin to stretch up above the top of his back.

At this point we're deep into unproductive Fake Debate and you go on ignore.

 

You are aligning the bullet holes to the clothing, not to the bullet hole in JFK's back! There can be so many reasons why the holes in the shirt do not align.  That is your argument?

That's a fake photo? So you are stating indirectly that JFK Lancer is a purveyor of fake JFK autopsy photographs. http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/autopsy_slideshow/

The T1 damage could only have been caused by a shot to the throat from the front, do you have any Ph. D. MD medical expert that will validate your hypothesis?

Do you have a comment on why the bullet hole in JFK's back is irregular?

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

There is clearly creepy skin in [JFK's] lower back that suggests that his skin may have been pushed up.

 

See JFK  sitting down while wearing his back brace:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/396246467207161124/

The top edge of the back brace must be below the front part of the rib cage, otherwise it would be cinched tight up on the ribs rather than the abdomen.

 

This drawing shows that the top of the brace can be no higher than T12. (No higher than L1 IMO.)

If the brace is pushing/holding the back skin up, the excess skin will simply be bunched up just above the top edge of the brace. The only way that pushing the skin up at T12 would also push the skin up at T3 is if the skin were rigid.

The idea that that the brace is pushing the skin up at T3 is nonsense.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

42 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

1 hour ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

Where is the physical evidence that shows that JFK was shot from the front?

The clothing evidence and the authenticated cervical x-ray.

The bullet holes in the clothes align with T3 -- the x-ray shows a hairline fracture at T1.

 

You mean the chest x-ray, don't you Cliff? It is my understanding that there is no extant cervical x-ray. If there is, I'd love to see it.

 

[Cliff Varnell]

9 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

You mean the chest x-ray, don't you Cliff? It is my understanding that there is no extant cervical x-ray. If there is, I'd love to see it.

 

From the HSCA report:

Evaluation of the pre-autopsy film shows that there is some subcutaneous or interstitial

air overlying the right C7 and T1 transverse processes. There is disruption of the integrity

of the transverse process of T1, which, in comparison with its mate on the opposite side

and also with the previously taken film, mentioned above, indicates that there has been a

fracture in that area. There is some soft tissue density overlying the apex of the right lung

which may be hematoma in that region or other soft tissue swelling.

Evaluation of the post-autopsy film shows that there is subcutaneous or interstitial air overlying

C7 and T1. The same disruption of T1 right transverse process is still present.

On the film of the right side, taken post-autopsy, there are two small metallic densities

in the region of the C7 right transverse process. These densities are felt to be artifact,

partly because of their marked density, because there is a similar artifact overlying the

body of C7, and because these metallic-like densities were not present on the previous,

pre-autopsy film. Therefore, I assume that these are screen artifacts from debris present

in the cassette at the time that this film was exposed. /

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

17 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

See JFK  sitting down while wearing his back brace:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/396246467207161124/

The top edge of the back brace must be below the front part of the rib cage, otherwise it would be cinched tight up on the ribs rather than the abdomen.

 

This drawing shows that the top of the brace can be no higher than T12. (No higher than L1 IMO.)

If the brace is pushing/holding the back skin up, the excess skin will simply be bunched up just above the top edge of the brace. The only way that pushing the skin up at T12 would also push the skin up at T3 is if the skin were rigid.

The idea that that the brace is pushing the skin up at T3 is nonsense.

 

Sandy,

If you look at JFK's upper back in the autopsy photograph, you can see ace bandage marks on his back in what looks like a crossover pattern extending to the chest area.  It seems to show that the skin in his upper back may have been pushed up.

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

Sandy,

If you look at JFK's upper back in the autopsy photograph, you can see ace bandage marks on his back in what looks like a crossover pattern extending to the chest area.  It seems to show that the skin in his upper back may have been pushed up.

 

Keyvan,

Can you describe a way that the brace or anything else could have PUSHED the skin up at T3?

if there were something essentially stuck to Kennedy's back skin at around T5 or higher, and if that were moved up, then I can see a possibility.

 

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Keyvan,

Can you describe a way that the brace or anything else could have PUSHED the skin up at T3?

if there were something essentially stuck to Kennedy's back skin at around T5 or higher, and if that were moved up, then I can see a possibility.

 

Let me be clear, I am not proposing that the skin was pushed up, I am stating that it is possible.  You do have to consider that he had multiple back surgeries, as seen in the photograph, he was full of scar tissue.  His skin may have been hard in some areas.

If the bullet did come from the front, the windshield was on the way, so I don't think that is possible unless the shot came from the right and to the front of JFK.  Below is a picture of the windshield of the JFK limo with the starburst where a bullet fragment hit.  This windshield is stored at the national archives - https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143

 

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Keyvan Shahrdar

[Denis Morissette]

A rarely, if ever, discussed Parkland staff member was interviewed by the HSCA. She claimed that she saw a huge cavity at the back of the head, big enough for two fists to fit int. She also told the HSCA that she saw a bullet. I obtained this audio at NARA II. This is just an excerpt.
 

 

[Ron Bulman]

39 minutes ago, Denis Morissette said:

A rarely, if ever, discussed Parkland staff member was interviewed by the HSCA. She claimed that she saw a huge cavity at the back of the head, big enough for two fists to fit int. She also told the HSCA that she saw a bullet. I obtained this audio at NARA II. This is just an excerpt.
 

 

Fascinating listening.  Thanks.

[Denis Morissette]

I made a summary of what is discussed in the tape. Not very detailed, that's a summary, not a transcript. I think there is more available than what I was able to obtain. 

THUOY, SHARON
CASSETTE 1, SIDE 1 (28 minutes)

0:41. I was a nurse student at the time. 
1:23. There was a phone, and a doctor was using it. A reporter known to us wanted to use it as well, but was told to wait. He hit the doctor on the chin knocking him down, and used the phone. He told to the person on the other end of the phone that someone in the motorcade had been injured. My colleague Donna Schloss and I overheard the conversation. We went to the emergency room. 
2:43. A stretcher with a body on it arrived. I went with it. 
3:00. The patient had a bullet wound in the throat… The base of the back of his head had a large cavity, big enough for 2 fists to go into.
3:37. A tracheotomy was prepared. JFK had a pulse, his breathing hard to hear. 
4:06. An incision for the tracheotomy was made after some comments were made about the wound being at the wrong location to be used for the tracheotomy.  
4:27. Dr. Carrico made the incision and getting ready to put the tube in. Dr. Perry opened the door of the room with his hands held up. He said to the people, “You do know we’re operating on the president”
5:14. Blood was withdrawn from the president, and I took it to a technician.
6:06. I saw Jackie in the hall.
6:53. Donna Schloss re-appeared. In front of the elevator, against the wall, was a stretcher with bloody sheets. And there was a bullet. On the metal, the stretcher beside the mattress Donna and I saw that bullet. We went upstairs.
8:12. I saw the casket put into the car. Jackie put her hands on the casket. She shook a policeman’s hands and appeared to touch his cheeks. It looked as if she was telling him, “Thank you”.
8:56. Let me ask you… Did you initially report to the emergency room, and how long was it before JFK arrived?
Not more than 5 minutes.
9:15. The stretcher arrived. You recall the names of those who also accompanied the stretcher to the Trauma Room?
I remember only Dr. Carrico.
11:07. You related that you saw a wound in the neck of the president. When did you observe it?
11:22. Immediately after he entered Trauma One.   
11:46. Please describe the wound in the neck? 
11:53. Small. Between the size of nickel and a dime. Bloody. 
12:22. Where was the wound relatively to the center of the neck?
12:33. About 2 inches to the right… On my right on my body… Towards his right.
13:09. To his right arm. Would have been to your left, his right?
Right. 
13:14. You specifically recall the conversations to the point you remember that the wound was at the wrong location?
Yes.
13:42. Who made the incision?
Dr. Carrico.
14:02. At what point did you see the second wound you saw? The one in the rear of the head.
14:26. Could you describe the wound at the back of the head?
Large. Ragged. Large enough for 2 fists to fit in. Very messy.
15:02. Please describe the location of this wound.
15:15. “Not directly in the center. More to the right, his right” The discussion continues on the details.
16:03. Any damage to the top of the head?
16:06. Not at all.
16:25. Any other damage at the back of the body or neck?
16:33. No.
16:40. So only the two you described to us?
Right.
16:52. Did you examine the body in a fashion that you would have seen other wounds?
17:03. Certainly in the chest area. Not on his back.
17:36. Questions on the timing of the events like the spotting of the bullet on the stretcher.
19:16. Could you describe again what was on the stretcher?
Thuoy describes.
21:07. Why have not you ever reported this bullet?
21:23. Thuoy replies.
22:03. When did you come back to the stretcher?
Thuoy: 3 PM.
22:14. Did you at any of the two times in the elevator area see anyone else than Donna Schloss?
No.
22:45. Ever been contacted by official agencies?
22:58. No.
23:07. Have you called any of them to volunteer information?
I called your committee. 
23:32. Could you relate this incident in Cambodia?
23:36. Thuoy related the incident when an SS agent told her, ‘You were one of the Parkland nurses” 
25:00. What was your reaction to this incident?
25:27. I think we have covered everything. 
25:30. You were still there after Dr. Perry left. Right?
Thuoy: I remember seeing Dr. Perry leave Emergency One. I don’t remember him staying there the entire time after he had put in the tube. 
25:53. Question on how long she stayed there after Dr. Perry left.
26:27. You were not in the room when JFK was pronounced dead?
Thuoy: No.
26:35. Interviewer is asking personal information on Thuoy. 

 

[Ron Bulman]

6 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Fascinating listening.  Thanks.

So she saw a bullet on a stretcher Well before JFK was taken off his stretcher and put in a casket.  That wasn't called for, then delivered At Least 15-20 minutes later after he was declared dead.  She left the room before he was declared dead, consulted one patient briefly then went to the elevator and observed a bullet on a stretcher.  Too fast.  Despite the sincerity of her testimony either she's mistaken or the bullet was planted on the cart.  As some have said for many years.  By Jack Ruby...?  Seth Kantor spoke with him at Parkland.

If Ruby could be trusted to kill Oswald and take the blame, could he be trusted to plant a bullet?  Not by me.  But I didn't know him. 

[Pat Speer]

This witness' recollections are quite obviously incorrect on a number of points, e.g. Perry did the trach, not Carrico, the throat wound was not 2 inches to the side--2 inches to the side would be the side of the neck, not the middle of the throat. Her description of the head wound is also a gross exaggeration. Kennedy was breathing. A person with a hole the size of two fists on the back of his head is not breathing, folks. Two fists would be the vast majority of the brain cavity. Even worse, she said the wound was at the base of the back of his head. While it's true one can live a short time with a big hole at the top of the head, one can't live more than a few seconds with a big old hole at the base of the back of the head.

In short then, she's probably telling the truth as she recalled it 15 years after the fact, but her recollections are not very helpful beyond, perhaps, her claim of seeing a bullet on a stretcher (that was not Connally's) prior to its discovery by Tomlinson.

[Denis Morissette]

She also gave an Oral History to the 6FM in which she Claims X-Rays of JFK were made at Parkland.