Plaza Man: Bob Groden vs the City of Dallas

[Ken Rheberg]

17 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ken:

Did you read the articles I posted carefully?

I don't think you did.

In the documentary ITTC, does Gary mention the acoustics?  If so, I must have missed it.

Now, he lined up his GK shot from a point behind the fence  that is almost perpendicular to the car.  The reason he did this is so he could say that "No.  Could not come from there since it would have hit Jackie."  Groden pointed out to him that this was wrong since he had falsely arranged the actors.  But anyone can see in the Z film that this is wrong anyway.  But Gary kept it in the show.  That is not journalism, it is propaganda.

Secondly, when you watch the program you will see that Gary bypasses the spot where most commentators think the actual assassin did fire from.  This is further down the fence, where it juts out toward the street and you would be standing over a storm drain.

I defy anyone to stand in that spot with a scoped rifle and say a professional assassin would miss.  And that is the reason Gary passed it up.

If you want to continue to defend Gary, and take cheap shots at me, go ahead.  But I know both the programs pretty well.

What's next Ken?  Gary is right and Ruby had no help getting into the police station? 

 

Jim wants to know if I read his articles carefully.

It doesn't appear that Jim read his own post or my response carefully.

Another forum member felt Jim had written a "hit piece" on Gary Mack.  Jim defended himself, in part, by posting something that two Discovery Channel JFK assassination-related programs had apparently said.

One of the documentaries was "JFK: Inside the Target Car".

According to Jim, in his own post, the two documentaries said, "No shot at Kennedy came anywhere except from the so called Sniper's Nest."

I happened to disagree with Jim's attempt to apply this to Gary Mack.  Yes, I dared to disagree with Jim DiEugenio.  And, for that, I was accused, by Jim, of taking cheap shots at him.

I merely had pointed out how, in the "Target Car" documentary, Gary had not discounted a missed shot from behind the picket fence.

Jim has yet to acknowledge that Gary actually said that.

No, I wasn't defending Gary Mack.  It was all about accuracy in reporting.

Ken
 

[James DiEugenio]

The reason I asked that Ken is because in the review I trace how Gary walks around the plaza with his marksman trying to find a spot for a front shot.

As I wrote, he rather arbitrarily eliminated 3 possible sites.  He then settled on the site that was behind the picket fence almost perpendicular to the car as it passes.  As I noted this is not a smart choice.

But it gave Gary the opportunity to say, no cannot be that since it would have hit Jackie.  When he knew this was wrong.

And where does he then go?  The sixth floor "sniper's nest" window.  And where does the show end at?  There.

Do we have to connect the dots here?  I don't think so.

Edited August 7, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[Ken Rheberg]

8 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The reason I asked that Ken is because in the review I trace how Gary walks around the plaza with his marksman trying to find a spot for a front shot.

As I wrote, heather arbitrarily eliminated 3 possible sites.  He then settled on the site that was behind the picket fence almost perpendicular to the car as it passes.  As I noted this is not a smart choice.

But it gave Gary the opportunity to say, no cannot be that since it would have hit Jackie.  When he knew this was wrong.

And where does he then go?  The sixth floor "sniper's nest" window.  And where does the show end at?  There.

Do we have to connect the dots here?  I don't think so.

 

Jim,

Looks like you're still refusing to admit that, in "JFK: Inside the Target Car", Gary Mack did not rule out a shooter from behind the picket fence.

Why is this so hard for you?

Let's see if you fare any better with this. . .

You said, "If you want to continue to defend Gary, and take cheap shots at me, go ahead."

Where are the cheap shots, Jim?

Hopefully, you'll agree that there weren't any.

Ken
 

[James DiEugenio]

Let me repeat:

As I wrote, he rather arbitrarily eliminated 3 possible sites.  He then settled on the site that was behind the picket fence almost perpendicular to the car as it passes.  As I noted this is not a smart choice.

But it gave Gary the opportunity to say, no cannot be that since it would have hit Jackie.  When he knew this was wrong........

And where does he then go?  The sixth floor "sniper's nest" window.  And where does the show end at?  There.

 

Images Ken, images.

[Gene Kelly]

This is for Steve and Joe:

The phrase Eppur si muove is attributed to the Italian mathematician, physicist and philosopher Galileo Galilei in 1633 after being forced to recant his claims that the Earth moves around the immovable Sun. The quotation is attributed to when he was being investigated by the Inquisition. Under pressure, he supposedly said (against his beliefs) that the Sun did indeed move around the earth then added, sotto voce, Eppur si muove.  Its use in modern language is for when we acknowledge what someone else is saying, but we want to convince them otherwise. As such, the phrase is used today as a sort of pithy retort implying that "it doesn't matter what you believe; these are the facts." What Galileo was purportedly saying to his inquisitors was, he didn't really believe what he was being forced to say … that he hadn't changed his mind after all.  Some historians believe that it was upon his transfer that Galileo actually said ‘Eppur si muove,’ rather than at his public abjuration following the trial.  Scholars however recognize the story as probably apocryphal. It is noted that Galileo was Tuscan, so he likely would not have used the word "muove". This quote was first publicly recorded in the questionable work “The Italian Library” written by Giuseppe Baretti more than 120 years later.  Baretti states that, the moment Galileo was set free, he looked up to the sky and down to the ground, and, while stamping his foot, in a contemplative mood, uttered the famous quote, referring to planet Earth. 

The central dispute between Galileo and the Church was whether Galileo could assert that the Earth really did move around the Sun (as a scientific fact) or whether he should present the idea as merely a hypothesis.  Church officials admitted that Galileo’s observations gave the appearance of moving around the Sun, but argued appearances could be deceiving.  Galileo, on the other hand, thought it was ridiculous to take poetic passages from the Bible literally. Galileo’s problem arose when he stopped proposing it as a scientific theory and began proclaiming it as a truth. But, despite his friends’ warnings, he insisted on moving the debate onto theological grounds. There is a painting attributed to B. E. Murillo and his school in Madrid that represents Galileo in prison. When cleaned, in 1911, it turned out that the painting was larger than originally framed. When unfolded, it revealed that the figure of Galileo was gesturing toward the words “Eppur si muove.” The painting was commissioned sometime between 1643 and 1650.  The painting is not historically correct, because it depicts Galileo in a dungeon, but nonetheless shows that some variant of the "Eppur si muove" anecdote was in circulation immediately after his death, when many who had known him were still alive to attest to it, and that it had been circulating for over a century before it was published. 

 Scholars doubt that Galileo actually said this, and attribute incredible popularity of the quote to widespread animosity against the Catholic Church, prevalent in 18th century, bound with efforts to create martyr-like figures from the Church’s past adversaries and victims.  John Heilbron’s 2010 biography of Galileo associates the statement with Archbishop Ascanio Piccolomini, who had supported Galileo, and with whom Galileo spent some months after his trial. Archbishop Piccolomini had few friends in the Vatican and continued to annoy the Church hierarchy by reportedly providing a safe place for Galileo to discuss his opinions. Baretti’s account from 1757 remains the first statement of the myth.  Baretti, like Piccolomini, was living in a foreign country where he could safely express his  displeasure with the Church.  Reference: Darin Hayton (June 3, 2012) “Toward a history of Eppur si muove”

Gene

 

[Joe Bauer]

Gene, thank you for this history piece.

Very interesting.

Makes me want to review Galilei again.

Nice early weekend morning read.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Gene Kelly]

Joe

In the context of whistle blowers (and Steve's response), Galileo was persecuted by the powerful Catholic Church's Inquisition.  His Heliocentric theory was presented as a 'truth' which rankled the powers that be, and he suffered persecution as a result. After many years, history and science ultimately vindicated Galileo.   I'd think his case is similar to what Robert Groden has experienced.  So, it matters not what the "official" or popular story line is, as some believe ... the facts are undeniable. 

Perhaps - as Galileo was purportedly saying to his inquisitors - Gary Mack didn't really believe what he was being forced to say.   

Gene