McIntyre Photo Ellis or Bellah?

[Joseph McBride]

When this photo of the limo and the motorcycle escort was first published in the Dallas Morning News

in 1988 when I was in Dallas for the twenty-fifth anniversary, I

immediately noticed that Dan Rather is not in it. He claimed he

was on that side of the overpass. That was just one of

the stories he gave about where he was then. A colleague

said Rather was actually at the Trade Mart, where CBS

had the only live TV hookup. Rather had arranged that

as one of five film crews the network had in Dallas for

the president's visit. NBC and ABC only had the usual

one crew each. I discuss this in my video on the news

media and the assassination in Len Osanic's series 50 REASONS . . .

FOR 50 YEARS.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Joseph McBride

[John Butler]

Thanks to Robin Unger for posting the Bell frames showing that Sgt. Ellis' statements are problematic.  He generally has good visual evidence. 

They are nice clear frames showing people on the Triple Underpass at about the same time (at most a second or two's difference) from Altgens 7. 

There has always been problems between Bell and Altgens 7.  Ellis' frames show about 5 or 6 people on the overpass after Altgens 7 shows there are 11 people above Elm Street.  There are less people on the overpass than what is shown in Altgens 7 a few seconds earlier.  What's up with that?

The Bell frames are later (just a few seconds) after showing no one on the overpass.  Bell also has one frame showing 5 motorbike cops rather than 3.  I think I posted this at one time but, removed it to post something else.

Joseph McBride, Denis Morissette, and Chris Barstow are indicating something maybe wrong with the McIntyre.  If I'm wrong with that they can correct me. 

Another thing that maybe wrong with McIntyre is that Bell shows a number of people (3) at the end of the grassy area just prior to the overpass.  The McIntyre photo shows 2 in different positions.  It's not a great difference and one I wouldn't want to hang my hat on.

I have seen Robin Unger's identification of the motorcycle officers before.  I would like to know what Robin used to base this identification.  It might be helpful in solving my dilemma.   

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by John Butler

[Michael Cross]

6 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

This may be a dumb question . . . but what is the white car?

[John Butler]

Michael,

The white car is known as the motorcade's Lead Car.  The Lead Car is often referred to as the Chief Curry Car or something similar since Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry was the ranking member in the vehicle.

Here is an article you might enjoy and find informative on the presidential motorcade.  This article is in two parts and the next part will be published on Sunday.

http://jfkrunningthegauntlet.com/tag/presidential-motorcade/

[Michael Cross]

11 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

3-motorcycles seen in Bell

But no white car here? Presumably in front of the motorcycles?

[John Butler]

Sgt. Ellis said,

“Midway down Elm I remember waving at my wife’s niece and nephew, Bill and Gayle Newman, who had apparently come out to see the President.”

This contradicts what Bill Newman said in his first statement to the authorities on 11-22-63. 

Most of the pictorial evidence shows the Newman’s just west of the Stemmons Freeway sign.  They are standing there before, during, and after the assassination.  Only afterwards they are laying on the ground.  It seems like they are laying there for a long time after the assassination, perhaps posing for the photographers.

Bill Newman said “…I was standing in a group of people on Elm Street near the west end of the concrete standard when the President’s car turned left off Houston Street onto Elm Street.”

This concrete standard is just a few feet from the TSBD SW corner and not midway down Elm Street.  I believe Ellis adjusted his statement to fit what the photo record shows and what Newman said later.  And, this varies from what Bill Newman originally said.

Many witness’ statements evolve from what the witness originally said to something more compatible to what the government’s official story was.

From what Bill Newman said in this statement I put him down as a witness who said shooting occurred in front of the TSBD.  There are about 40+ witnesses who say much the same thing.

“We were standing at the edge of the curb looking at the car as it was coming towards us and all of a sudden there was a noise, apparently a gunshot.”

This sounds like shooting in front of the TSBD under the tree possibly or just out of the tree.  This would make a difficult shot for the shooter.

Edited August 10, 2018 by John Butler

[Chris Davidson]

2 hours ago, Michael Cross said:

But no white car here?

Bell, a little earlier:

 

[Denis Morissette]

The couple on the right had a camera with them. Was apparently not taking pictures. Nobody seems to know their names...

[John Butler]

Denis,

There were a lot of unidentified photographers in Dealey Plaza that day.  There were over 30+ photographers who were not allowed to show or keep their photos and films.  There is no record of these visuals from the unknowns.  Why?  I don't know.  Maybe the FBI or the Secret Service seized those films. 

Nearly all of these unknowns took their film on the passenger side of the presidential limousine.  From that side we have only Skaggs at the corner of Houston and Elm.  On Elm we have only Zapruder. 

Here is a link that discusses the issue in 2 parts:

https://jfkrunningthegauntlet.com/2018/08/05/films-and-photos-taken-that-afternoon-in-dealey-plaza-part-ii/

The second part is the interesting part showing the photographers and others that possibly took photos or films.

[John Butler]

Michael,

Chris Davidson did a fine job of explaining the problem.  If you take Unger's frames and blow them up you will see Curry's car in the shadows.

Here's something maybe no one else has noticed.  In Chris' Bell frame the limousine moves from that position on Elm to the position under the overpass in Unger's frames but, the motorbike cops do not move.  They are stationary.  They are not moving as shown in McIntyre.

What's up with that?

[Robin Unger]

My identification for the motorcycle cops was from information provided to me by Todd Vaughn and Gary Mack.

[Robin Unger]

If you click on my Bell frame composite image you will see it "FULL SIZE"

[Chris Davidson]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Here's something maybe no one else has noticed.  In Chris' Bell frame the limousine moves from that position on Elm to the position under the overpass in Unger's frames but, the motorbike cops do not move.  They are stationary.  They are not moving as shown in McIntyre.

 

They are all in motion.

Their cycle shadows are seen approaching the lightpost shadow across the roadway.

The cycle on the far left has its flasher on too.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19WTp-na4XCRB3qwxVdfg7dh9FGFNR1dq/view?usp=sharing

 

 

[John Butler]

Thanks Robin Unger for your posts and clarification.  I think they probably just told you the name of the policeman without providing back up information.  Correct me if I am wrong. 

Chris,

Robin Unger says you can click of one of the frames in Bell film posts and it will enlarge.  If you do that you will see that the motorbike cops are approaching the light pole shadow and are not crossing it. 

If you look at your post of Bell they are also approaching the light pole shadow and not crossing it.  It looks to be the same distance for the motorbike policemen from the shadow in both of the frames posted by you and Robin. 

Meanwhile, the limousine and other vehicles are moving a distance of 20 - 30 ft. or more.  These vehicles are moving but the motorbike cops are not.

Whoever scripted the editing of Bell made mistakes.  I am pointing out two in these posts.  The first was the difference in the number of railroad workers on the overpass in Bell vs. Altgens 7.

Another big mistake in scripting teams is Altgens 7 does not have motorbike cops in it.

I might say here that all of you guys have been a great help in figuring this out. 

Edited August 11, 2018 by John Butler

[Denis Morissette]

I have 2 HSCA interview reports on my website:

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/HSCA-180-10109-10154.pdf

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/HSCA-180-10108-10193.pdf

Other HSCA interviews with DPD officers who were in Dealey Plaza during the shots. See at the top of the page.

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/Document.html