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Keyvan Shahrdar

"took it out of the body bag." - Richard Lipsey, JFK Honor Guard

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Posted (edited)

This is just the start of where the medical evidence gets murky.  One reason I don't trust much of it past the statements  of Dr's. and Nurses at Parkland from that afternoon, before SS agent Elmer Moore visited a few day's later.  Think about it.  If Oswald was set up possibly months in advance (New Orleans, Mexico City), whoever did that knew in advance they had to make it look like he was the only shooter or Boom, Conspiracy.  This would have included removal of any evidence to the contrary, including too many bullets or fragments and any from the wrong direction.

Yes, a body bag would have come from the military, if it was a Government shipping casket it would too.  But the CIA and Army Intelligence worked hand in hand often (see Prouty, Lansdale).  I've read an unsupported Theory that maybe the reason the SS insisted on no local autopsy and removed the casket from Parkland by force, at gunpoint is that it was already empty.  I have no idea if transferring the body from the ornate local casket was possible time wise.  But whoever set up Oswald would have known they had to have control of the body in a private setting at some point for at least several minutes to remove any evidence of a conspiracy.  I've also read as part of this "theory"  that there was a back entrance to the emergency room/hospital involving a elevator trip down a floor, down a hallway to a back dock (where they normally took out bodies of those deceased instead of past incoming patients at the ER entrance?).  Never been there, no evidence, but it doesn't sound totally illogical.

Then we get to Washington.  While they lowered the empty ornate casket to the waiting hearse before the cameras, JFK was rushed out the other side into a helicopter, taken to Walter Reed Army Hospital for pre autopsy surgery then taken to Bethesda.  No, he went straight to the Bethesda back parking lot and in for Humes to do pre autopsy surgery, afterwards LeMay and others were allowed in to observe, comment and smoke, cigars, if desired...  It gets kind of murky from here...

But the brain stem was already severed, it practically fell out...

The x-ray's resemble a Rorschach test.

Why does the death stare photo exist?  His eyes were closed according to the Priest who gave him Last Rites (Thanks Ray).  Who opened them and why is his throat butchered from a small entrance wound and small incision to open it slightly to inset a small tube?

Edited by Ron Bulman

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Posted (edited)
On 8/8/2018 at 2:31 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Ron, if our agencies and military could quickly think up and implement a stealthy false casket transport scheme where the casket in the ambulance at Andrews air base with Jackie didn't contain JFK, and instead a plain casket that was flown to Bethesda in a helicopter did, then this reality fact could give some credibility to the scenario of switching caskets before the heavy ornate one was driven to and lifted upon Air Force 1.

Also, I have a curious thought regards Richard Lipsey's recollections about JFK's body being taken to a ( morgue? ) after the autopsy to be worked on by embalmers whose job it was to make JFK's face and head something better in appearance than gore.

Lipsey stated the embalmers did an amazing job in doing this.

Could one of these embalmers have been the notorious "John Liggitt?"

Known as one of the most talented reconstructionist in the business?

Liggitt's wife at the time ( Lois) said that Liggitt was called away soon after JFK was killed and told his wife he couldn't talk about what he was doing ( except that it was extremely important ) and that he would come home when he could.

Lois then stated that her husband John didn't return home until 24 hours later, tired, disheveled and agitated. When he arrived he told Lois she and her kids and he had to get out of town right away "until things die down."

Perhaps embalmer John Liggett was put aboard Air Force 1 and went with JFK's body to Washington D.C.? Where he was part of the team that late that night through the next morning was tasked with the job of making JFK look somewhat presentable in the area of reconstruction?

It would be so easy for Liggitt to have then be flown back to Dallas via a military plane. His being kept up all those hours and saddled with such a traumatic Earth shaking task...could explain everything his wife Lois described upon seeing John Liggitt when he returned home. ???

Quote

 

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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On 8/9/2018 at 7:38 PM, Joe Bauer said:

A few things in Lipsey's HSCA testimony and TED TALK statements that gave me pause. Some minor. Some not.

In the TED TALK interview he exaggerated the distance he was seated from the autopsy table. He told the host he was no more than 2 feet extra distance away from the body than the distance between himself and the TT interviewer and that looked to be about 3 feet. That's 5 to 6 feet away from the autopsy table?

In Lipsey's HSCA testimnoy he told them he was 12 to 15 feet away. That's a lot of extra room and would definitely affect his recollections of what he saw and heard versus just 6 feet away.

He also mentioned his fear when landing in the Army helicopter behind Bethesda that one slight mistake and the helicopters rotator blades could cut off the heads of many in the crowd of 4,000 there. 4,000?

He also said to the HSCA that he didn't know how many people came in to the autopsy room when he first sat down.

He also was seated on the left side of JFK's body which blocked any view of the much more right side head damage to JFK's body.

He mentions Sam Bird having one of his men go and get them hamburgers which they then ate during the autopsy while seated there.

 Really?  No one came to tell them that this baseball game munch down might be a little inappropriate in that situation?

How many times did Lipsey mention "3 shots" in the HSCA interview? In the Ted Talk interview he never mentions 3 shots.

His HSCA testimony tone seemed weirdly flippant to me. Inter-spiced with a few added unimportant personal feeling comments that I guess he thought was funny.

 

There's more. Will add soon.

 

I think there was another witness who reported remembering some people eating in the autopsy viewing. The whole post-mortem lasted 8 hours, that part doesn't seem implausible.

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On 8/8/2018 at 2:31 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

"I've read Lipsey's HSCA testimony and most of it consistent with testimony from others."

Sandy, I sure disagree.

How many others who were present at the autopsy have given detailed accounts of this besides the pathology doctors and Paul O'Conner?

That's not a lot of separate accounts.

Paul O'Conner was right next to JFK's body the whole autopsy.

O'Conner's up close eye-witness recollections have more weight to me than Lipsey who was 12 to 15 feet away and on the left side of the body which blocked his view of the right side head wounds. Plus include the fact that O'Conner had been involved with many autopsies and knew the terminology.

Lipsey had never seen an autopsy before let alone a dead body!

Lipsey also seemed to exaggerate at times. Not hugely, but telling the TED TALK interviewer that he was just a couple of feet farther away from the autopsy table than the three feet he was from the interviewer. ( 5 - 6 feet away? )

In his HSCA testimony he said this distance was "12 to 15 feet" away.

That's a significant difference regards seeing the autopsy close up and maybe overhearing the doctor's discussion during this.

Lipsey talked about fearfully pondering the helicopter he rode in to Bethesda making just a slight landing maneuver mistake and potentially chopping the heads off of many in the crowd of ... "4,000 people?"

4,000 people gathered on the lawn area behind Bethesda...at night?

Lipsey said the only people he saw close to JFK's body during the autopsy had doctor's gowns on. Then he later hedged and said maybe someone not in a gown might have been in this close up position. Maybe even a man in uniform.

Lipsey said he didn't know how many people entered the autopsy room when he entered? Yet he says repeatedly in the Ted Talk interview it was never crowded.

Lipsey says his military companion (1st Lieutenant Sam Bird )  had one of his men go get hamburgers which they then ate in the autopsy room while watching the autopsy. Really?

Yes, it was late and Lipsey hadn't eaten since that morning, but it just seems perversely incongruous to picture these two military men just 12 to 15 feet away from the dead body of the President of the United States being cut up and gutted, eating a hamburger...as if they were at a ball game.

No one even approached them about the disrespectful inappropriateness of this? And wouldn't most people choose to take a brief break outside the autopsy room to eat, especially if the smell of chemicals was present?

And there seemed to me to be a flippancy in Lipsey's HSCA testimony presentation.  Somewhat out of place with the seriousness of the investigation proceedings.

Lipsey just doesn't feel right to me. Specifically his qualifications and sureness in proclaiming Oswald as the lone killer of JFK.

Bethesda stationed Navy corpsman and autopsy assistant Paul O'Conner was right next to JFK's body during the autopsy. His sworn testimony in the "Trial Of Lee Harvey Oswald" is so contradictory of Lipsey's description of the scene in that room that evening that one is forced by common sense and logic to accept the fact that either Lipsey or O'Conner was lying or highly exaggerating in their personal eye witness accounts of this event.

I choose to believe Navy Corpsman Paul O'Conner's straight forward and less subjective version of the JFK autopsy event over Lipsey's much more personal anecdotal side-story one and for the reasons I have stated above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

"Now wait....isn't it documented that JFK's body left Parkland in 

On 8/8/2018 at 2:31 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

I've read Lipsey's HSCA testimony and most of it consistent with testimony from others. For example, he spoke of the doctors hypothesizing a bullet path where it enters the EOP and exits the throat. Humes et. al. testified for the HSCA and elsewhere that the bullet penetrated the scalp at the EOP site, and then tunneled along the skull between the skull and the skin. At that point of the HSCA testimony one of the docs cautioned that what they were talking about shouldn't be on the record, and the tape recorder was shut off. But what they said is consistent with what Lipsey said. They apparently thought that the bullet penetrated the scalp near the EOP,  skidded down along the skull, traveled through the neck, and exited the throat.

If I remember correctly, Lipsey testified that the doctors were adamant about that being the path the bullet followed. I've wondered if Humes reported that in his first autopsy report... the one he burned.

 

Sandy have you ever read Twyman's book Bloody Treason? I found it very interesting when I first read it where he mentions that there was certainly another corpse in the autopsy room that night, that of an USAF officer(?) This was specifically mentioned on pg. 207 (254 on the .pdf):

Quote

O'Connor said that a strange thing had occurred on the night of the autopsy: he was told that the body of an Air Force major had been delivered to the anteroom in a coffin. O'Connor said that during the autopsy he was able to see, through the door, part of the coffin placed there. O'Connor said it was peculiar that an Air Force major's body would be delivered to Bethesda because they normally handled only Navy personnel. He had never recalled Army or Air Force personnel being sent to Bethesda. He had never recalled Army or Air Force personnel being sent to Bethesda. I suggested to O'Connor the possibility that when the bronze coffin was first brought in to the morgue, it was brought in to the anteroom empty Then, the Air Force major's body was placed in the coffin and it was then taken back out to the Navy ambulance where it was returned to the front of the hospital. It was at this point where the ambulance was joined with the casket team and the ambulance was then driven to the rear of the morgue where the bronze casket (with the Air Force major's body in it) was removed from the ambulance, then taken into the anteroom of the morgue, and opened for viewing. The coffin was then closed and later removed from the anteroom with the Air Force major's body in it. I asked O'Connor if it seemed possible that something like this could have happened from his vantage point during the autopsy He said, yes, it was possible.

(Bold) emphasis mine, posted with the rest of the paragraph that I found relevant.

Edited by B. A. Copeland

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On 8/9/2018 at 9:41 PM, Joe Bauer said:
On 8/8/2018 at 3:31 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Ron, if our agencies and military could quickly think up and implement a stealthy false casket transport scheme where the casket in the ambulance at Andrews air base with Jackie didn't contain JFK, and instead a plain casket that was flown to Bethesda in a helicopter did, then this reality fact could give some credibility to the scenario of switching caskets before the heavy ornate one was driven to and lifted upon Air Force 1.

Also, I have a curious thought regards Richard Lipsey's recollections about JFK's body being taken to a ( morgue? ) after the autopsy to be worked on by embalmers whose job it was to make JFK's face and head something better in appearance than gore.

Lipsey stated the embalmers did an amazing job in doing this.

Could one of these embalmers have been the notorious "John Liggitt?"

Known as one of the most talented reconstructionist in the business?

Liggitt's wife at the time ( Lois) said that Liggitt was called away soon after JFK was killed and told his wife he couldn't talk about what he was doing ( except that it was extremely important ) and that he would come home when he could.

Lois then stated that her husband John didn't return home until 24 hours later, tired, disheveled and agitated. When he arrived he told Lois she and her kids and he had to get out of town right away "until things die down."

Perhaps embalmer John Liggett was put aboard Air Force 1 and went with JFK's body to Washington D.C.? Where he was part of the team that late that night through the next morning was tasked with the job of making JFK look somewhat presentable in the area of reconstruction?

It would be so easy for Liggitt to have then be flown back to Dallas via a military plane. His being kept up all those hours and saddled with such a traumatic Earth shaking task...could explain everything his wife Lois described upon seeing John Liggitt when he returned home. ???



I just want to say that I did not write the quotation above that is attributed to me.

 

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Sorry Sandy. I must have cleared out your post content and not cleared your name above when I did.

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On 8/12/2018 at 9:45 AM, Joe Bauer said:
On 8/8/2018 at 3:31 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

"I've read Lipsey's HSCA testimony and most of it consistent with testimony from others."

Sandy, I sure disagree.

How many others who were present at the autopsy have given detailed accounts of this besides the pathology doctors and Paul O'Conner?

That's not a lot of separate accounts.

Paul O'Conner was right next to JFK's body the whole autopsy.

O'Conner's up close eye-witness recollections have more weight to me than Lipsey who was 12 to 15 feet away and on the left side of the body which blocked his view of the right side head wounds. Plus include the fact that O'Conner had been involved with many autopsies and knew the terminology.

Lipsey had never seen an autopsy before let alone a dead body!

Lipsey also seemed to exaggerate at times. Not hugely, but telling the TED TALK interviewer that he was just a couple of feet farther away from the autopsy table than the three feet he was from the interviewer. ( 5 - 6 feet away? )

In his HSCA testimony he said this distance was "12 to 15 feet" away.

That's a significant difference regards seeing the autopsy close up and maybe overhearing the doctor's discussion during this.

Lipsey talked about fearfully pondering the helicopter he rode in to Bethesda making just a slight landing maneuver mistake and potentially chopping the heads off of many in the crowd of ... "4,000 people?"

4,000 people gathered on the lawn area behind Bethesda...at night?

Lipsey said the only people he saw close to JFK's body during the autopsy had doctor's gowns on. Then he later hedged and said maybe someone not in a gown might have been in this close up position. Maybe even a man in uniform.

Lipsey said he didn't know how many people entered the autopsy room when he entered? Yet he says repeatedly in the Ted Talk interview it was never crowded.

Lipsey says his military companion (1st Lieutenant Sam Bird )  had one of his men go get hamburgers which they then ate in the autopsy room while watching the autopsy. Really?

Yes, it was late and Lipsey hadn't eaten since that morning, but it just seems perversely incongruous to picture these two military men just 12 to 15 feet away from the dead body of the President of the United States being cut up and gutted, eating a hamburger...as if they were at a ball game.

No one even approached them about the disrespectful inappropriateness of this? And wouldn't most people choose to take a brief break outside the autopsy room to eat, especially if the smell of chemicals was present?

And there seemed to me to be a flippancy in Lipsey's HSCA testimony presentation.  Somewhat out of place with the seriousness of the investigation proceedings.

Lipsey just doesn't feel right to me. Specifically his qualifications and sureness in proclaiming Oswald as the lone killer of JFK.

Bethesda stationed Navy corpsman and autopsy assistant Paul O'Conner was right next to JFK's body during the autopsy. His sworn testimony in the "Trial Of Lee Harvey Oswald" is so contradictory of Lipsey's description of the scene in that room that evening that one is forced by common sense and logic to accept the fact that either Lipsey or O'Conner was lying or highly exaggerating in their personal eye witness accounts of this event.

I choose to believe Navy Corpsman Paul O'Conner's straight forward and less subjective version of the JFK autopsy event over Lipsey's much more personal anecdotal side-story one and for the reasons I have stated above.

 

Joe,

I didn't watch the TED TALK interview. I only read Lipsey's HSCA testimony. It didn't sound flippant to me.

It sounds like Lipsey resorted to exaggeration in his interviews which came much later. I don't put much weight in late testimony (unless I can test it) because of human failings like that.

I said that I found Lipsey's HSCA testimony to be consistent with the testimony of others. I guess I should have qualified that with my and David Lifton's hypothesis that different people saw different things because they were ushered into and out of the autopsy at different times. For example, one witness said that there was no brain, and that could be because he was admitted to the autopsy after the brain had "fallen out." (The brain stem had already been cut.)

I find it odd that you disagreed with my statement, which reads as follows: "I've read Lipsey's HSCA testimony and most of it is consistent with testimony from others." I gave an example of his testimony being consistent with the autopsists' HSCA testimony describing the EOP site bullet tunneling down between the scalp and skull and exiting the throat. (Though Lipsey went into much less detail.) I haven't seen any other autopsy witness noting that beside Lipsey.

Note that I never said that Lipsey's testimony was superior to that of Paul O'Connor's or anybody else's. So there is no basis for you to disagree with what I said on that count.

But I would appreciate it if you could point out some of the discrepancies between O'Connor's account and Lipsey's. Not from O'Connor's book, but rather from his HSCA testimony... assuming he did testify. Or from what he told researchers in the 1970s, like David Lifton.

 

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24 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Sorry Sandy. I must have cleared out your post content and not cleared your name above when I did.

 

No problem. It's just that I got a bit worried when I couldn't recall writing it.  :P

 

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