Paul Brancato Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 If we were to have total transparency on what military intelligence units were doing, I am sure we would find that by the late fifties domestic spying on American citizens was a, maybe the, major focus of their operations. By the time of the ‘60’s protests this was undeniably the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Boylan Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) This is Ed Coyle's interview before the ARRB. He gives a a good account of the George Nonte weapons investigation. He also reveals his relationship with the FBI, SS, Hosty, and Dallas PD. He was 5 blocks down from the TSBD and had to "rescue: James Powell who was trapped in the TSDB. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=201232&search=col_boyd#relPageId=1&tab=page Coyle was primarily responsible for all security inspections for both military & contract personnel for the 112th. As a collateral duty, he was the 112th's liaison officer, meaning he would serve as the contact to other agencies. He told me that I need to understand the role of army intelligence at that time. According to Coyle, the Army had more resources at it's disposal than the FBI. He said the FBI would continuously obtain information on various organizations from information which groups like the 112th obtained. He said that in the event of Marshall Law, the head of Army Intelligence would be in charge of activities, so the Army had good relations with many agencies & at all levels. I asked Coyle for a general description of his actions on 11/22/63, to which he said the following:-he was on duty that day-he met with Jim Hosty of the FBI & a guy (he can't remember the name right now) from the ATF that morning at the ATF building to discuss a non-JFK related operation they were working on-when the meeting ended (around the time the motorcade was approaching the downtown area), he & Hosty were walking at which point Coyle asked Hosty if he was interested in standing on Main Street so they could see JFK...Hosty said he needed to stop by the bank & then left Coyle...Coyle stood on Main Street waiting for the motorcadeas the motorcade approached where he was standing (approximately 5 blocks from Dealey Plaza), he saw JFK but is embarrassed by the fact he didn't really pay any attention to Jackie or the Connally's because he was surprised that JFK's head appeared to be so out of proportion to his body-after the motorcade passed, he proceeded to his office building where he bumped into his supervisor named Lt. Steve Weiss while traveling the stairwell...They decided to have lunch & proceeded to stop by their office for a moment when they heard reports on the radio about the shooting-he thought it was a shame that Hosty took a lot of heat re: the assassination & (not of his doing) he wasn't even really part of the security preparations... In telephone conversation with Mr. Stephan Weiss (former lieutenant in 112th INTC Group Dallas office at time of the assassination, and former supervisor of Ed Coyle), Doug Horne was told by Weiss that he now desires not to discuss his assassination recollections any further. ARRB staff is preparing a letter to Mr. Weiss encouraging him to meet with Gunn/Horne during their visit to Texas.8. On March 11, Wray, Barger and Masih met with Office of Naval Intelligence officials at ONI's Suitland headquarters. https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/ARRB-Emails/ARRBmails10636.pdf I have only one puny comment: the letter can be construed as saying that Weiss has refused to discuss with us ANYTHING from the Montague call. However, if I understand his most recent stance correctly, it is that he doesn't want to talk about whatever-it-is that happened in 1982. I think that, as a matter separate from prying out any secrets he might have regarding the 1982 incident, we still want to pursue with him a fuller, more detailed account of his experiences on 11/22/63 and information about the 112th INTC Group. I think it would be advisable to make this distinction -- and maybe it's a way to make sure you do see him in Houston (i.e. if the other matter is still unresolved, use the Houston session to talk strictly about the assassination and his experiences, thus getting that information on the record AND presumably doing some confidence building at the same time to make him more amenable to opening up on the other topic. . .) https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/ARRB-Emails/ARRBmails46132.pdf Edited March 8, 2019 by David Boylan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 54 minutes ago, David Boylan said: -he was on duty that day-he met with Jim Hosty of the FBI & a guy (he can't remember the name right now) from the ATF that morning at the ATF building to discuss a non-JFK related operation they were working on-when the meeting ended In telephone conversation with Mr. Stephan Weiss (former lieutenant in 112th INTC Group Dallas office at time of the assassination, and former supervisor of Ed Coyle), Doug Horne was told by Weiss that he now desires not to discuss his assassination recollections any further I have only one puny comment: the letter can be construed as saying that Weiss has refused to discuss with us ANYTHING from the Montague call. However, if I understand his most recent stance correctly, it is that he doesn't want to talk about whatever-it-is that happened in 1982. I think that, as a matter separate from prying out any secrets he might have regarding the 1982 incident, we still want to pursue with him a fuller, more detailed account of his experiences on 11/22/63 and information about the 112th INTC Group. I think it would be advisable to make this distinction David, I can't be positive, but I think it was the Lawrence Miller/Donnell Whitter weapons theft they were talking about. Those two had been busted on November 18th. Frank Ellsworth was the other man in the meeting. It's pretty ominous that nobody wants to talk about that 1982 meeting. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 1 hour ago, David Boylan said: This is Ed Coyle's interview before the ARRB. He gives a a good account of the George Nonte weapons investigation. He also reveals his relationship with the FBI, SS, Hosty, and Dallas PD. He was 5 blocks down from the TSBD and had to "rescue: James Powell who was trapped in the TSDB. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=201232&search=col_boyd#relPageId=1&tab=page David, If nothing else, this Coyle ARRB interview shows me the disconnect between the Reserves and the Active Army. Coyle said he had never heard of Whitmeyer. Robert Jones said the same thing in his HSCA testimony. Yet Whitmeyer was supposed to be this high muckety muck in the Reserves. (Of course Coyle said he had never heard of Robert Jones either). Many of the Detectives in the DPD Special Service Bureau were in the Reserves. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Simpich Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Can you all explain (in a paragraph or so) the functional differences between the 112th, the 316th, and Crichton's 488th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Simpich Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 I know the 488th were Reserves, and there is not a lot of paperwork on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bill Simpich said: Can you all explain (in a paragraph or so) the functional differences between the 112th, the 316th, and Crichton's 488th? Bill, See this document starting on page 3 explaining the relationship of the 316th with the 112th. http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/ARRB/JMASIH/WP-DOCS/TIM/112DALLA.WPD.PDF You might be interested in this database listing: https://www.maryferrell.org/php/jfkdb.php?field=recordseries&value=NARA+RG319%3A+ACSI+G2%2C+COUNTERINTELLIGENCE+ORGANIZATIONS I do not have any of the documents listed there. I personally think Crichton's 488th was a legend in his own mind. There are others who think differently. Steve Thomas Edited March 8, 2019 by Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 16 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said: Bill, I do not have any of the documents listed there. Bill, I spoke too quickly. I do have a copy of 197-10002-10234. You read it here: pp 27-34. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HWZoEXgUY8HyfMyxGrCIPOiWpB9-86_r/view Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Simpich Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I can't stop thinking about the 488th possibly being a Crichton legend. We do see clips on the 4150th Army Reserve Special Unit - with Lumpkin in charge. Maybe we should start a thread on the 4150th - it doesn't seem to be related to the 316th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Bill Simpich said: I can't stop thinking about the 488th possibly being a Crichton legend. We do see clips on the 4150th Army Reserve Special Unit - with Lumpkin in charge. Maybe we should start a thread on the 4150th - it doesn't seem to be related to the 316th. While you were posting here, I posted on the Veciana thread. Maybe it belongs here. If the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment was a legend in Crichton’s mind, then it was also so in Colonel Frank Brandstetter’s mind. My opinion, and it’s only that, is that the 488th was linked to ACSI. There are two books about Colonel Brandstetter, one a co-written autobiography. He states in both books that he worked for ACSI for two decades, and that in 1959 he was assigned, or permitted to join, the 488th MID for weekend duties by Colonel Rose at ACSI. BTW, Brandstetter’s history is enormously interesting. It was Steve Thomas who first clued me in to ‘Brandy’. He worked for Hilton, for Seagrams, was in charge of the Havana Hilton at the time of the Revolution, became close friends with De Vosjoli, lifelong friends with Gordon McClendon and David Phillips. Think - ACSI, Jack Crichton and his mysterious 488th, the Communications bunker under the Dallas fairgrounds. With what we now know of the connections between Alpha 66, Veciana, and ACSI, isn’t it time we started digging more into the 488th? Forgot to add that at Steve Thomas suggestion I looked at (purchased) an edition of the Military Order of World Wars. There is a short entry on Crichton, which states that he ran his own Military Intelligence Unit, unfortunately doesn’t say when or what number it was. Edited March 15, 2019 by Paul Brancato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Simpich Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Paul, I agree with you. Researching the 488th is out of my lane - especially if it was an off the books operation by Crichton and bringing in thoroughly spookified officers like Brandy. Maybe we could approach it by first studying the 4150th? I don't see any sustained thread on that front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, Bill Simpich said: Paul, I agree with you. Researching the 488th is out of my lane - especially if it was an off the books operation by Crichton and bringing in thoroughly spookified officers like Brandy. Maybe we could approach it by first studying the 4150th? I don't see any sustained thread on that front. Bill, I started one on 2/18/19, but put it aside until I could do more research. I'll be happy to plug in what I've come up with so far, if you'd like. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 That is weird. Probably the same guy. Is it possible that whoever came up with info that Westbrook served in a police unit in Vietnam was conflating the two names without noticing the middle initial discrepancy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 9 hours ago, Paul Brancato said: That is weird. Probably the same guy. Is it possible that whoever came up with info that Westbrook served in a police unit in Vietnam was conflating the two names without noticing the middle initial discrepancy? Paul, As weirdly coincidental as it is, these were two different men. William A's wife was named Ann. William R's wife was named Anna. (Like I said - weird). Obituary of Ann Westbrook March 8, 1942 - January 29, 2018 http://www.bmmfh.com/memsol.cgi?user_id=2066490 Floyce Ann Westbrook, age 75, of Italy passed away Monday, January 29, 2018 at Baylor Scott & White, Waxahachie. She was born March 8, 1942 in Lubbock, Texas to Lendon Truman and Wanda Frances (Blagg) Irwin. Ann was affectionately known by her grandchildren as “Memy” whom she adored. Ann married the boy next door, William A. “Sandy” Westbrook in Post, Texas on December 30, 1961. She earned her PHT (Putting Hubby Thru) degree from Texas A&M. Left to cherish memories are her loving husband of 56 years, William A. “Sandy” Westbrook... Ann was a longtime member of Central Baptist Church in Italy, where she lived out a life of serving by teaching children Funeral services will be 3pm Saturday, February 3, 2018 at the Central Baptist Church in Italy with Pastor Joseph Barrett officiating. (Italy is 44 miles south of Dallas). William R. (Ralph) Westbrook http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t698-capt-william-r-westbrook Dallas Morning News, The (TX) - February 21, 1996 Deceased Name: Rites set for William Ralph Westbrook Services for William Ralph "Pinky" Westbrook , a retired Dallas Police Department captain, will be at 1:30 p.m. Wednesday at Go Ye Village in Tahlequah, Okla. Mr. Westbrook , 78, died Monday of cancer at his home in Tahlequah. His wife, Anna... Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 12 hours ago, Bill Simpich said: Maybe we should start a thread on the 4150th - it doesn't seem to be related to the 316th. Bill, They weren't. If I understand this right, the 316th was on a temporary duty assignment attached to the 112th around the 1963-1964 time period. I've seen a reference to them being sent over to Thailand in the later 1960's. US Army Units in Thailand http://www.geocities.ws/jackscorner2001/index2.html# 316th INTC Detachment No dates given Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood http://tlc-brotherhood.com/wp/guestbook/ May 15, 2015 at 1:08 am Peter Lucier "Just found this site. Served with 316th INTC Det from April 1966 to Jan 1968. Love to hear from former members. Served as NCO IC for Joint US/Thai military intelligence training program." On the other hand, I've seen references to the 4150th Training school in Dallas from as early as the 1950's to as late as the 1990's. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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