11,22,1963 JFK Limo Driver Bill Greer's WC Testimony Disturbingly Misleading.

[Joe Bauer]

I know this specific subject has been discussed 1,000 times in hundreds of venues by researchers much more knowledgeable than me.

However, inspired by the recent Vince Palamara posting I again reviewed SS agent Bill Greer's WC testimony from March, 1964 as well as Roy Kellerman's.

It's interesting how much more you see when you go back and review things that you had looked at years previous and not seen.

Like my previous post copying and pasting Roy Kellerman's WC testimony, I want to show "some" of Greer's under oath testimony ( not near as much as Kellerman's) with space breaks where I can interject questions and factual points that show just how inaccurate many key points of Greer's testimony really are.  To the point where you can't help feel that he is lying regards many of them.

It's a good thing the Commission didn't have and show the Zapruder film right after Greer testified. They might have charged him with perjury, or in the least shown that he was a very dumb fellow with a stark case of memory and recollection deficiency just 4 months after the assassination.

 

Greer's WC testimony in part:

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time? 
Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was.

 

Mr. Greer, are you not trained to react evasively, protectively and instantly toward the President to any loud sound that may be somewhat similar to a gun shot?

 

Mr. Greer: And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder.

Still no protective measure training action even after you hear a second shot sound just seconds after the first?

 

Mr. Greer: And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator ...

 

You immediately tramped on the accelerator after you saw Connally starting to fall while seeing this during your first turn around?

The Zapruder film doesn't show this. I shows you tramping on your accelerator after the third shot ( not the first ) and after your second turn around.

 

Mr. Greer: and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see anything happen behind me any more,

Again the Zapruder film contradicts you.

 

Mr. Greer: because I was occupied with getting away. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard? 
Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three.

You just testified  "and I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was."

 

Mr.Greer: But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard. 
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of having heard three shots at that time? 
Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after. 

No, the third shot hit JFK in the head "while" you were "fully turned around looking in JFK's direction." The Zapruder film proves this.

 

Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate, how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the second noise?

Mr. GREER. It seems a matter of seconds, I really couldn't say. Three or four seconds. 
Mr. SPECTER. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the time of the third noise? 
Mr. GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were between the two. I couldn't really say. 

Was there enough time in the time frame gap between the second and third shot for a rifle shooter to pull back his just fired gun, unload his clip, re-inject another round, reset his arms and gun and realign his gun and scope to a constantly moving and new position target and then fire again which would have taken at least 3 seconds?  Or was it a much shorter time time gap than 3 seconds such as a "bang-bang?"

You recollect the time gap between the first and second shot was 3 to 4 seconds...and you then recollect the time gap between the 2nd and third shots as much closer  - "just simultaneously."  

"Simultaneously" sure sounds like a much shorter time gap than 3 seconds.

Could Oswald have pulled his rifle back, ejected his spent shell, re-injected a live one, reset himself and re-aligned his gun and scope to a target which was moving and had  moved farther away since his last shot, in less than 3 seconds, 2 seconds, one? 

What does Greer's concept of "just simultaneously" mean in seconds elapsed?

In most people's minds, simultaneously means maybe a 1 second pause between shots, not 2 or 3 or 4. And Oswald could not have done all that gun re-prepping and sight aligning and aiming and two shot shooting action in a one second time frame.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the types of sound of the second report, as distinguished from the first noise which you said was similar to a motorcycle backfire? 

 

Greer just testified that " I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was."

 

Mr. GREER. The second one didn't sound any different much than the first one but I kind of got, by turning around, I don't know whether I got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not, I may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was something different to it.

 

Feeling a physical"concussion" from one shot but not another doesn't make them different than each other? Sounds like the power and intensity difference Roy Kellerman described ( sonic boom versus firecracker ) regards the last two shots versus the first.

 

But so far as the noise is concerned, I haven't got any memory of any difference in them at all. 
Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the sound of the third noise. 
Mr. GREER. Just, to me it was similar, to the first two. They all sounded practically the same to me. 
Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder. 
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over? 
Mr. GREER. Right shoulder. 
Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time? 
Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again. 
Mr. SPECTER. Was the movement of your head just then approximately the same? 
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. As the time? 
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the right. 
Mr. GREER. My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than my head around. I had vision real quick of it. 

 

The Zapruder film clearly shows Greer's head turned almost a full 180 degrees back toward Kennedy and Connally right before and during the 3rd shot. Not a slight "eye" turn around at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught him out of the corner of your eye? 
Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left. 
Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him? 
Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I am now. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how? 
Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be to his left or to his side. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some other way? 
Mr. GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he--when I saw him. 
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear? 
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President, I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President. 

 

The Zapruder film shows this Greer statement to be completely false. He was looking directly back at JFK and Connally at just about a 180 degree head turn both before and during the third shot hit. And for much more than a glance.

Mr. SPECTER. When you started that glance, are you able to recollect whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or after that second shot? 
Mr. GREER. It was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit, you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him start to fall. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate? 
Mr. GREER. It was about simultaneously. 
Mr. SPECTER. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time-- 

 

Did Greer accelerate prior to the third shot?

No. He slowed after the second shot and even turned around his head again before the third shot. And you don't accelerate while you are turned 180 degrees looking behind you and have even taken your hands off the steering wheel at the same time.

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. You had gotten that instruction? 
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate. 
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot? 
Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then.

In Greer's own words when asked this direct question: He says he accelerated after the "second shot"...not the third.

It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator. 
Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot? 
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head. 

NO, you heard the third shot while you were looking back towards JFK and Connally. The Zapruder film proves that beyond doubt. And you don't hear a shot that close "after" it's already hit it's target.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the time of the first, second, or third shots? 
Mr. GREER. I would estimate my speed was between 12 and 15 miles per hour. 

The Zapruder film shows Greer slowing the car down almost to a stop after the second shot and while he was turned around towards the back seats and had pulled his hands off the steering wheel.

Mr. SPECTER. At the time all of the shots occurred? 
Mr. GREER. At the time the shots occurred. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now what, if anything, was Mr. Kellerman doing at the time of the first shot? 
Mr. GREER. I couldn't really speak for where he was watching, what part of the street or the buildings or what he was watching at that time. I don't really know. 
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of the second shot? 
Mr. GREER. He was sitting there in the front. No, sir; I don't know what his action was then. I was watching the overpass, I wasn't looking his way. 
Mr. SPECTER. When you were watching the overpass at that time, did you observe anything on the overpass? 
Mr. GREER. Not that I can remember now. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that there was no one present on the overpass? 
Mr. GREER. My recollection, there may have been a police officer up there. It is vague to me now everything that I had seen at that time. 
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of the third shot? 
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say what he was doing. 

Greer reportedly showed great remorse to Ms. Kennedy at Parkland and apologized for not doing something more while her husband was being shot.

Yet, it has been claimed by some that at least one of Greer's children stated in an interview that their father in fact,  never felt guilt or responsibility for what happened that day to JFK.

Greer contradicts the Zapruder film so much and even his side-by-side limo passenger Kellerman ( regards the shot sound differences ) that you wonder what his answers would be after watching the Zapruder film right after he testified.

 

And Greer says he didn't see JFK being shot the second time?  When the Zapruder film shows him looking right at JFK when he is hit in the head with the third shot?

Even Zapruder film watchers clearly see this huge bright pink cloud of blood, brains and bones spraying all up and over everything in the car ( and back toward the motorcycle policemen ) including Greer and his fellow passenger Kellerman?

Fellow passenger SS agent Kellerman described the head mass explosion spray as like "handfuls of sawdust" being hurled up in the air and all around even into the front passenger compartment.

Greer didn't see any of this?  Nothing until he got to Parkland to help unload JFK's body onto the stretcher?

Greer's WC testimony was so scattered and contradicting of the Zapruder film, Kellerman's WC testimony and even himself, you are forced to look at him as a suspicious witness more than an innocent, naive and totally truth telling one. 
 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Ron Ecker]

It was also Greer who had JFK's clothes stashed away, to be unavailable at the autopsy.

The only defense I can think of is that even Secret Service agents way back in 1963 didn't know the importance of clothes as evidence in a homicide. Anyone buy that?

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

    Coincidentally, I was reading something about Greer today while researching Joseph McBride's comment about John Kerry being a relative of Michael Paine.  (They were second cousins on the Forbes side of John Kerry's family.)

   This is probably old hat for forum researchers here-- especially for Mr. Palamara.

   Apparently, before joining the Secret Service, Greer had worked as a chauffeur for one of those old, arch-conservative Boston Brahmin families-- the Cabots or the Lodges-- who were political adversaries of the Kennedy family.

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

    Coincidentally, I was reading something about Greer today while researching Joseph McBride's comment about John Kerry being a relative of Michael Paine.  (They were second cousins on the Forbes side of John Kerry's family.)

   This is probably old hat for forum researchers here-- especially for Mr. Palamara.

   Apparently, before joining the Secret Service, Greer had worked as a chauffeur for one of those old, arch-conservative Boston Brahmin families-- the Cabots or the Lodges-- who were political adversaries of the Kennedy family.

Something about it being an Irish thing.  That Greer himself or maybe his dad came directly from Ireland and were maybe uneducated but loyal to an Irish political faction that had little use for the Kennedys.  I believe some have speculated this may have contributed Greer's delay in acceleration after hearing the first "noise".

Then again, why was he almost stopped at this point in the first place?

When he should be up to 20 mph or more at that point per SS protocol?

Edited September 12, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[Cliff Varnell]

2 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

It was also Greer who had JFK's clothes stashed away, to be unavailable at the autopsy.

The only defense I can think of is that even Secret Service agents way back in 1963 didn't know the importance of clothes as evidence in a homicide. Anyone buy that?

 

 

Ron, there are a whole lot of Major JFK Assassination Critics who don't understand the importance of clothes as evidence in a homicide.

If they did there wouldn't be so many researchers denying the T3 back wound/throat entrance wound.

 The night of the autopsy the Secret Service enforced a "no-fly zone" over the clothing -- which the JFKA Critical Master Class maintains.

[Micah Mileto]

313 was probably the second loud report, with the third coming right after. Connally's z160 semi-fast head turn isn't very convincing next to the mountain of evidence that the first loud report was at z190-224.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Micah Mileto

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

313 was probably the second loud report, with the third coming right after. Connally's z160 semi-fast head turn isn't very convincing next to the mountain of evidence that the first loud report was at z190-224.

Micah, do you think the second loud report was a shot that made the heavy steel damaging upper inner windshield frame indentation?

Edited September 12, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

The multiple under oath testimonies given by onsite Dealey Plaza eye and ear witnesses during the time of the shots, and that similarly recollect the latter two shots out of three being so close together they occurred right on top of each other or almost simultaneously is clearly one of the most solid and important pieces of corroborated information that indicates multiple shooters.

S.S. agent Roy Kellerman describes the shot time space sequence between the 1st, 2nd and 3rd shots as a " bang ... bang bang." He also guesses that the time space between the 1st and 2nd shot was at least 3 to 4 seconds.

JFK limo driver S.S. agent Bill Greer stated the last two shots sounding "just simultaneously" in their time frame spacing versus a 3 to 4 second pause between the 1st and 2nd shots.

Nearby train tower control person Lee Bowers stated this to the Warren Commission when asked what he heard regarding the shots:
Mr. BOWERS - "I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together."

Lee Bowers repeated this shot time frame sequence in his "Rush To Judgement" interview by Mark Lane where he again stated there was a first shot, then a slight pause and then the next two shots came "almost on top of each other."

Bowers then physically replicated the 3 shot time sequence by rapping one of his knuckles on the table in front of him.  He rapped his knuckle once, then waited, then rapped again twice with maybe just a 1/2 second spacing between the later two rappings.

Others in or close to Dealey Plaza during the shooting also stated very similar time frame pacing sequences for the three shots.

The very short time space between the second and third shots, if factual, would so obviously prove a second gunman imo.

Because there is no way Oswald or any other possible single shooter could have pulled back their just fired long rifle weapon, ejected a clip - re-injecting another live round, then reset their arms and gun in a firing position and then having to lean into and refocus their scope and aim again and then firing ... in the brief 2nd to 3rd shot time frame all these witnesses swore under oath they heard.

The 3 to 4 second pause between the 1st and 2nd shots would be enough time for a rifle shooter to reset all those gun and shot firing dynamics, but that same in between shots time frame requirement ( 3 to 4 seconds ) would also be needed in between two more shots.

I tried to duplicate this shot sequence myself. I held a yardstick in my arms as one would hold a rifle while shooting with it.

I pretended I just fired the rifle, and as quickly as possible pulled it back ejected the spent clip which re-engages a new clip, thrust the gun back up and forward into a shooting position again, brought my head forward to the scope where I would have to re-site my moving and now farther away target, aim and fire again.

The best I could do in performing all of these rifle resetting, aiming and shooting functions was 4 seconds plus. 

I figured a highly trained marksman probably could perhaps knock a second off of that time in doing these same functions.

However, that 3 to 4 seconds is way more time than these Dealey Plaza ear witnesses described taking place between the 2nd and 3rd shots.

I recommend curious others try this rifle firing sequence duplication themselves.

The bottom line logic with and importance of these multiple ear witness shot time sequence testimonies though is easy to see and understand. 

If their "bang...bang bang", "just simultaneously", "almost on top of each other" and other very similar time space testimony descriptions between the 2nd and 3rd shots versus the time space between the 1st and 2nd shots are true...it becomes very hard to stand on the premise that any shooter at JFK that day in Dealey Plaza could have fired all three shots by themselves to a reasonably believable degree.

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Joe Bauer