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Fred Litwin

I Was a Teenage JFK Conspiracy Freak

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That is good Mathias,   I had never heard this addressed like that before.

I would agree with you , I don't see a startle reaction from the people in front of the TSBD.  Am I missing something?  Does someone see that?

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23 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The "scientist" Mr. Baker meets up with the polemicist DVP.  And he evidently did not even read what the guy wrote. This is the problem with some of the "scientists" in this case.  Baker belongs with Guinn, Canning and Alvarez.  In Litwin's book.

You're really quite predictable, Jim. You do make me chuckle. 

21 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

I think this photograph is important, because it constitutes exactly the kind of "hard physical evidence" Paul Baker was talking about. If we examine this photo closely, we'll notice that President Kennedy has obviously already been hit by a bullet. He can be seen grasping at his throat. In the background we can see the School Book Depository. In front of it there's a crowd of people, most of whom seem completely unaware of what has just happened.

Now important is what we DON'T SEE. And that is any kind of involuntary startle reaction. But that is exactly what we would expect if a high-powered rifle had just been fired just a few meters above them and if the shock wave of a super-sonic bullet had just passed over their heads.

Notice that even the baby (slightly to the left of "doorman") does NOT exhibit any kind of reaction to a loud noise. (And I guess we all know how easily little children are startled by loud noises.) And if you've ever been startled by a loud noise, you can certainly confirm that people react almost instantaneously to really loud noises.

So in my opinion, this photo is "hard, physical" evidence that the shot that hit Kennedy in the back, WAS NOT fired from Oswald's rifle. And this again is corroborated by the holes in Kennedy's clothes that rule out a trajectory from the 6th floor window.

How do you know how anyone would react, given that some people thought the first shot was the sound of a firecracker, given that there was - presumably - a general hubbub going on as the President passed? Also, you're asserting that a shot had been fired at this point into Kennedy's back, so why does it matter where it came from? Wouldn't people have reacted in the way you've suggested regardless of its origin? On top of that, why are those SS agents looking towards the TSBD? It's ridiculous to assert that this image proves that the bullet in question didn't come from Oswald's rifle. (Incidentally, witnesses did see him pointing and firing a gun out of the sixth floor window. What's that all about?)

Edited by Paul Baker

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2 hours ago, Paul Baker said:

You're really quite predictable, Jim. You do make me chuckle. 

How do you know how anyone would react, given that some people thought the first shot was the sound of a firecracker, given that there was - presumably - a general hubbub going on as the President passed? Also, you're asserting that a shot had been fired at this point into Kennedy's back, so why does it matter where it came from? Wouldn't people have reacted in the way you've suggested regardless of its origin? On top of that, why are those SS agents looking towards the TSBD? It's ridiculous to assert that this image proves that the bullet in question didn't come from Oswald's rifle. (Incidentally, witnesses did see him pointing and firing a gun out of the sixth floor window. What's that all about?)

Hello Paul,

you're raising a very interesting point here. The first shot was described as different than the others by a great number of witnesses. It is interesting that even police officers or Secret Service agents would mistake a gunshot for a firecracker, isn't it? (http://www.jfksouthknollgunman.com/index.php/06-2-assassination-firecrackers/) To me that sounds like evidence that different kinds of weapons were used that day.

Now about your second point: Wouldn't people have reacted in the way you've suggested regardless of its origin? No, I don't think so. A bullet flying at supersonic speed creates a sonic boom that would obviously be more likely to be heard by people close to the line of fire. Like people right in front of the School Book Depository. But strangely they don't appear to be startled, NOT EVEN THE BABY.

Quote

Now you're asking why some of the Secret Service agents are looking towards the TSBD? Two possible answers come to my mind:

1) They've heard the sonic boom of a bullet flying over their heads.

2) They may have seen the impact of the bullet on Kennedy's back and are looking for the origin of the shot.

Also notice that NOT ALL of the agents are looking back at the building. Some seem to be UNAWARE that anything out of the ordinary has happened at all.

Now consider the testimony of Bonny Ray Williams, who was situated right beneath the 6th floor window: At first he and Jarman thought that the first shot could've been a motorcycle backfire. So they thought that it came from OUTSIDE the building although they supposedly were the closest witnesses to that gunshot. Don't you find that strange?

About your first question: How do I know how people would've reacted? If a bullet flew right over their heads the people in front of the TSBD they would have been exposed to a sound level of about 135 dB --> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/jfk8/sound2.htm

In psychological experiments  only 100 dB is enough to induce startle reactions. --> https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/startle-response

19 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

That is good Mathias,   I had never heard this addressed like that before.

I would agree with you , I don't see a startle reaction from the people in front of the TSBD.  Am I missing something?  Does someone see that?

I wish I could claim credit for this. In fact Robert Harris figured all this stuff out a long time ago. I think his research has been overlooked.

 

Update:

Various sound levels for comparison: https://www.chem.purdue.edu/chemsafety/Training/PPETrain/dblevels.htm

Edited by Mathias Baumann

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The famous Altgens photo Mathias posted could show the JFK back-throat / Connelly  below the shoulder-body shot trajectory as different than the WC finding 6th floor one as the 6th floor window perch seems too high and close ( in this photo's depiction ) for a shot angle that entered JFK's upper back and came out his throat then hitting Connelly in his upper right back which indicates a much more horizontal track versus a much steeper downward one.

It also seems from this photo that the full bloom leafed canopy of the large oak tree between the 6th floor window and JFK might have obstructed a 6th floor Eastern most window's shooters view of JFK at the time of the shot and hit.

Even considering the spatial distortion ( actual distance of JFK's limo from the TXSBD ) because of Altgen's front view position when taking this photo it still seems the bullet's trajectory had a much more horizontal track once it hit and exited JFK versus the steep angle it was reported to have come in from the fairly high up 6th floor window.

What always cringes me is the reaction of the Queen Mary sideboard riding SS agents who just gaze around in their initial reaction to hearing a sound which is clearly close to a gunshot one.  They are not even watching or seeing JFK and Connelly's animated body movements at the time of the shot which should have elicited an immediate jumping off and racing reaction to the Presidential limo to it's rear foot rests and bar handles.

Only Clint Hill did all those things, but reacted a second or two too late to place his body up on and even inside the limo to protect JFK  from the following head shot.  

If I were  asked to decide the degree of gross negligence on the part of JFK's SS protection in their failure to protect the President in Dealey Plaza on 11,22,1963 I would cite this Altgen's photo in my finding that most of the agents on or in the Queen Mary and their bosses during the fatal shot sequence ( and including Greer and Kellerman ) should have been fired soon after the event.

And does this Altgen's photo show Rip Robertson, Johnny Roselli and David Morales on the sidewalk in front of the TXSBD when JFK is being shot?  

If it does, it's like a snap shot from a bad dream and answers so many dark questions.  

This photo is just one rung below the one of terror traumatized Jackie Kennedy placed next to LBJ for his Air Force 1 swearing in, Oswald being shot by Jack Ruby and the Zapruder film in it's historical and emotional impact when one flashes back to 11,22,1963 imo.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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On 9/27/2018 at 5:30 PM, Mathias Baumann said:

I know I've posted this picture before on other threats, but unfortunately it hasn't attracted the attention it deserves in my opinion. So I'm posting it again:

 

altgens-6-ue-large-best.jpg

I think this photograph is important, because it constitutes exactly the kind of "hard physical evidence" Paul Baker was talking about. If we examine this photo closely, we'll notice that President Kennedy has obviously already been hit by a bullet. He can be seen grasping at his throat. In the background we can see the School Book Depository. In front of it there's a crowd of people, most of whom seem completely unaware of what has just happened.

Now important is what we DON'T SEE. And that is any kind of involuntary startle reaction. But that is exactly what we would expect if a high-powered rifle had just been fired just a few meters above them and if the shock wave of a super-sonic bullet had just passed over their heads.

Notice that even the baby (slightly to the left of "doorman") does NOT exhibit any kind of reaction to a loud noise. (And I guess we all know how easily little children are startled by loud noises.) And if you've ever been startled by a loud noise, you can certainly confirm that people react almost instantaneously to really loud noises.

So in my opinion, this photo is "hard, physical" evidence that the shot that hit Kennedy in the back, WAS NOT fired from Oswald's rifle. And this again is corroborated by the holes in Kennedy's clothes that rule out a trajectory from the 6th floor window.

That is one possibility, the other is that they saw the bullet's impact in JFK's back and that is before the throat shot.

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3 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

The famous Altgens photo Mathias posted could show the JFK back-throat / Connelly  below the shoulder-body shot trajectory as different than the WC finding 6th floor one as the 6th floor window perch seems too high and close ( in this photo's depiction ) for a shot angle that entered JFK's upper back and came out his throat then hitting Connelly in his upper right back which indicates a much more horizontal track versus a much steeper downward one.

It also seems from this photo that the full bloom leafed canopy of the large oak tree between the 6th floor window and JFK might have obstructed a 6th floor Eastern most window's shooters view of JFK at the time of the shot and hit.

Even considering the spatial distortion ( actual distance of JFK's limo from the TXSBD ) because of Altgen's front view position when taking this photo it still seems the bullet's trajectory had a much more horizontal track once it hit and exited JFK versus the steep angle it was reported to have come in from the fairly high up 6th floor window.

What always cringes me is the reaction of the Queen Mary sideboard riding SS agents who just gaze around in their initial reaction to hearing a sound which is clearly close to a gunshot one.  They are not even watching or seeing JFK and Connelly's animated body movements at the time of the shot which should have elicited an immediate jumping off and racing reaction to the Presidential limo to it's rear foot rests and bar handles.

Only Clint Hill did all those things, but reacted a second or two too late to place his body up on and even inside the limo to protect JFK  from the following head shot.  

If I were  asked to decide the degree of gross negligence on the part of JFK's SS protection in their failure to protect the President in Dealey Plaza on 11,22,1963 I would cite this Altgen's photo in my finding that most of the agents on or in the Queen Mary and their bosses during the fatal shot sequence ( and including Greer and Kellerman ) should have been fired soon after the event.

And does this Altgen's photo show Rip Robertson, Johnny Roselli and David Morales on the sidewalk in front of the TXSBD when JFK is being shot?  

If it does, it's like a snap shot from a bad dream and answers so many dark questions.  

This photo is just one rung below the one of terror traumatized Jackie Kennedy placed next to LBJ for his Air Force 1 swearing in, Oswald being shot by Jack Ruby and the Zapruder film in it's historical and emotional impact when one flashes back to 11,22,1963 imo.

 

 

 

 

 

They guy referred to as David Morales is none other than Danny Garcia.

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8 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

That is one possibility, the other is that they saw the bullet's impact in JFK's back and that is before the throat shot.

The only witness to describe JFK's back shot is SS SA Glenn Bennett.  In the Altgens 6 photo Bennett is in the passenger side back seat, his features are blurred consistent with head movement.  Bennett's contemporaneous notes describe the back shot -- "about four inches down from the right shoulder" -- which matches the location of the bullet holes in the shirt and jacket.

Bennett's well-corroborated account puts the back shot right before the head shot.

The first shot struck JFK in the throat, despite what all the naysayers say.

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8 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

That is one possibility, the other is that they saw the bullet's impact in JFK's back and that is before the throat shot.

Another possibility is simultaneous shots to the back and throat, based on one command.  Then a second for head shot(s).  First ones aiming for larynx and heart?  

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Why speculate at all?

From Secret Service SA Glenn Bennett's statement 11/23/63:

<quote on, emphasis added>

About thirty minutes after leaving Love Field about 12:25 P.M., the Motorcade entered an intersection and then proceeded down a grade. At this point the well-wishers numbered but a few; the motorcade continued down this grade enroute to the Trade Mart. At this point I heard what sounded like a fire-cracker. I immediately looked from the right/crowd/physical area/and looked towards the President who was seated in the right rear seat of his limousine open convertible. At the moment I looked at the back of the President I heard another fire-cracker noise and saw the shot hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder. A second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head. I immediately hollered "he's hit" and reached for the AR-15 located on the floor of the rear seat. Special Agent Hickey had already picked-up the AR-15. We peered towards the rear and particularly the right side of the area. I had drawn my revolver when I saw S/A Hickey had the AR15. I was unable to see anything or one that could have fired the shots. The President's car immediately kicked into high gear and the follow-up car followed.

<quote off>

The bullet hole in JFK's jacket is 4.125" below the bottom of the collar, 1.75" right of mid-line.

The back shot occurred right before the head shot, well after the throat shot.

Naysaying witness bashers will protest, no doubt...

Edited by Cliff Varnell

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Some additional remarks:

The decibel scale is logarithmic. That means for instance that 110 decibels are 32 times as loud as 70 dB. A motorbike has a sound level of about 100 db. The shockwave of a supersonic bullet has a level of 135 decibels. That means the gun shot was orders of magnitude louder than the parade and even well above the average human pain threshold, which is at 110 db.

Quote

In humans, changes in electrical activity in neck muscles can occur within 9 msec after the onset of an auditory stimulus and within 14 msec in jaw muscles.

http://acoustics.org/pressroom/httpdocs/138th/davis.htm

 

It has been pointed out that two of the Service Service agents have reacted to some kind of stimulus. We can also see that Jacqueline Kennedy too is already grabbing at her husband's arm. So obvisously enough time has passed since the gunshot for people to begin reacting to it.

But why don't we see any reaction in the people CLOSEST to the alleged source of gunfire and RIGHT UNDER the supposed trajectory of the bullet (and therefore its sonic shockwave)? Mind you, the noises these people would've been subjected to are WELL ABOVE the human pain threshold.

The most logical conclusion in my opinion is that at the moment the photo was taken NO gunshot had been fired from the 6th floor window of the TSBD. But I'd love to hear alternative explanations.

 

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A book I HIGHLY recommend that tackles all the issues Fred brings up and a whole lot more (all the inconvenient "lone nut" bits and pieces about the bullets, rifle, the bag, etc. etc. etc.):

 

https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Harvey-Oswald-Files-Kennedy/dp/9401432961/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1538261609&sr=1-2&keywords=flip+de+mey

 

This book, along with Jim DiEugenio's latest, is my favorite book on the case (Barry Ernest's book is right up there, too). Flip's other book is amazing, too:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Cold-Case-Kennedy-Investigation-Assassination/dp/9401413967/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1538261670&sr=1-1&keywords=flip+de+mey

 

That said, get/ read The Lee Harvey Oswald Files: Why the CIA killed Kennedy

Flip doesn't avoid ANY "lone nut" items. He goes into gory detail on everything- the postal money order, the backyard photos; you name it. So many conspiracy books DO gloss over a lot of the evidence that appears, at first glance, to demonstrate Oswald's (sole?) involvement...Flip's does not.

The two de Mey books, DiEugenio's two books, and Barry Ernest's books- indispensable. Posner, Bugliosi, Litwin, Moore, Belin, etc.: debunked.

 

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18 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Exactly, speculation heaven.....bliss 😋

Yeah, I've speculated about that for years but kept it to myself.  If it was a military Type operation, planned in advance, communication technology of the time used...  Someone with binoculars or on the edge of Dealy Plaza said A Go when JFK's limo reached a pre determined specified point (after the limo slowed down?).  Two spotters heard the command and said Go,  two shots a split second apart, one from the front, one from the front to the throat, one from the back to the heart that missed right but hit.  Shut him up from crying out, and kill him.  Then B Go.  Make sure he's dead.  At least two if not three and yes possibly four shots.  Remember SSA Kellerman, who somehow knew to not do his duty and move (jump on JFK) said he heard a "flurry of shots", I.E. not one or two.  At least one missed, somehow Tague got nicked, thankfully, or the Warren Omission would have gotten away with two shots.  Another missed and hit Connally.  The single, magic, pristine bullet is BS.  Then we have a rear head entry wound that has like the back wound moved around courtesy of the WO.  Then there's James Jenkins a (?) intern at Bethesda that night, at the table following Humes orders who saw a entry wound in JFK's right temple

https://insidethearrb.livejournal.com/10811.html

Remember, the House Sub Committee on Assassinations audio specialists claimed 5 shots, at least one from the front.  But Blakey said he could only sell four. Which is what the report says.  Which means in their last deliberations on the subject our (not you Bart) government concluded it was a conspiracy but didn't say it.

Given the lack of a true investigation and down wright obfuscation by the DPD, FBI and Warren Omission and Angleton and the CIA's desire to "wait the commission out", speculation based on the few facts available is about all we are left with in some aspects of the case.

Wasn't there something about paint lines or markers on the curb of Elm along the way discussed, maybe here? 

  

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11 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

A book I HIGHLY recommend that tackles all the issues Fred brings up and a whole lot more (all the inconvenient "lone nut" bits and pieces about the bullets, rifle, the bag, etc. etc. etc.):

 

https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Harvey-Oswald-Files-Kennedy/dp/9401432961/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1538261609&sr=1-2&keywords=flip+de+mey

 

This book, along with Jim DiEugenio's latest, is my favorite book on the case (Barry Ernest's book is right up there, too). Flip's other book is amazing, too:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Cold-Case-Kennedy-Investigation-Assassination/dp/9401413967/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1538261670&sr=1-1&keywords=flip+de+mey

 

That said, get/ read The Lee Harvey Oswald Files: Why the CIA killed Kennedy

Flip doesn't avoid ANY "lone nut" items. He goes into gory detail on everything- the postal money order, the backyard photos; you name it. So many conspiracy books DO gloss over a lot of the evidence that appears, at first glance, to demonstrate Oswald's (sole?) involvement...Flip's does not.

The two de Mey books, DiEugenio's two books, and Barry Ernest's books- indispensable. Posner, Bugliosi, Litwin, Moore, Belin, etc.: debunked.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but dosen't Flip de Mey write in his books that there is no question the shots came from the sniper's nest ? Therefore, when you advise us to read his books, are you in essence telling us that the sniper's nest should now be considerd by all conspiracy theorists to be the location from where the shots came ? 
I mean, we all know that you yourself have had no consistence in your writings over the years, but we know that you, as of 2018, pose as a conspiracy believer, don't you ? Are you now claiming that Flip de Mey has convinced you that the shots came from the sniper's nest ?

Edited by François Carlier

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3 hours ago, François Carlier said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but dosen't Flip de Mey write in his books that there is no question the shots came from the sniper's nest ? Therefore, when you advise us to read his books, are you in essence telling us that the sniper's nest should now be considerd by all conspiracy theorists to be the location from where the shots came ? 
I mean, we all know that you yourself have had no consistence in your writings over the years, but we know that you, as of 2018, pose as a conspiracy believer, don't you ? Are you now claiming that Flip de Mey has convinced you that the shots came from the sniper's nest ?

Hello Francois,

whatever caused President Kennedy to bring his fists up to his throat was NOT the shot of a high-powered rifle from the 6th floor window. Look at my posts above and specifically at the crowd in the Altgens photo right in front of the TSBD. Those people would not be smiling anymore if the 135 db pain-inducing shock wave of a supersonic bullet had just passed only a few meters above their heads.

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