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Fred Litwin

I Was a Teenage JFK Conspiracy Freak

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On 9/29/2018 at 7:43 AM, Cliff Varnell said:

Why speculate at all?

From Secret Service SA Glenn Bennett's statement 11/23/63:

<quote on, emphasis added>

About thirty minutes after leaving Love Field about 12:25 P.M., the Motorcade entered an intersection and then proceeded down a grade. At this point the well-wishers numbered but a few; the motorcade continued down this grade enroute to the Trade Mart. At this point I heard what sounded like a fire-cracker. I immediately looked from the right/crowd/physical area/and looked towards the President who was seated in the right rear seat of his limousine open convertible. At the moment I looked at the back of the President I heard another fire-cracker noise and saw the shot hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder. A second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head. I immediately hollered "he's hit" and reached for the AR-15 located on the floor of the rear seat. Special Agent Hickey had already picked-up the AR-15. We peered towards the rear and particularly the right side of the area. I had drawn my revolver when I saw S/A Hickey had the AR15. I was unable to see anything or one that could have fired the shots. The President's car immediately kicked into high gear and the follow-up car followed.

<quote off>

The bullet hole in JFK's jacket is 4.125" below the bottom of the collar, 1.75" right of mid-line.

The back shot occurred right before the head shot, well after the throat shot.

Naysaying witness bashers will protest, no doubt...

Not protesting anything, sounds like your feathers are ruffled, but one statement does not make it true. Especially where it is coming from.......that lot should have been strung up that very same evening for the nation to wake up to. The Pretorian guard......HA.

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2 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Not protesting anything, sounds like your feathers are ruffled, but one statement does not make it true.

But the truth is the bullet holes in JFK's clothes are exactly where Bennett described them in notes taken a couple hours after the murder.

Was it a lucky guess?

Doesn't it hurt to bend that far backwards, Bart?

Quote

 

Especially where it is coming from.......that lot should have been strung up that very same evening for the nation to wake up to. The Pretorian guard......HA.

So it was a lucky guess?

Amazing! Pet Theorists always value their speculation more than actual evidence.

Bennett's account destroys the official version of events.

Linda Willis and Nellie Conally described JFK responding to throat trauma.

But of course naysaying witness bashers are going to dispute that as well since it doesn't fit their pet theories...

Edited by Cliff Varnell

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Quite funny this, a one trick pony that refuses to see the truth for what it actually is. I am amazed you have not brought the bunched jacket up yet....oh wait......

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have no pet theory in any of this, it is all speculation like I said earlier, but that somehow eluded you.....like so many other things.

Goodbye Cliff Varnell.

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12 hours ago, François Carlier said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but dosen't Flip de Mey write in his books that there is no question the shots came from the sniper's nest ? Therefore, when you advise us to read his books, are you in essence telling us that the sniper's nest should now be considerd by all conspiracy theorists to be the location from where the shots came ? 
I mean, we all know that you yourself have had no consistence in your writings over the years, but we know that you, as of 2018, pose as a conspiracy believer, don't you ? Are you now claiming that Flip de Mey has convinced you that the shots came from the sniper's nest ?

I will correct you: you are wrong.

2007 is calling---old news. PAT SPEER also is on record as having briefly changed his mind once; big deal. So has Deb Galentine and a few other conspiracy advocates. Look at ole Freddie: he used to be a conspiracy advocate!

Of course at least one shot came from the sniper's nest; so what? The question is: did OSWALD fire the weapon or did someone else? In addition, this has 0.0 to do with shots from OTHER locations. In addition to authors Flip de Mey and myself, author Barry Ernest also obviously posits this belief, as he does not believe Oswald was on the 6th floor firing, regardless of whether or not his rifle was used, etc.

Expand your mind and come down from the silliness. Having an open mind is a good thing. It is not a crime to change your mind and go back to a position you had before. Otherwise, there would be no divorced people in this world: "Hey---you told your first wife you loved her? WHY are you remarried then? You are not allowed to change your mind...and I have this love letter to your first wife that 'proves' you are wrong now." See my point? :)

Edited by Vince Palamara

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20 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Quite funny this, a one trick pony that refuses to see the truth for what it actually is.

What truth is that?

Bennett's contemporaneous notes on 11/22 and his official Secret Service report of 11/23 both say a shot hit JFK's back "about 4 inches down from the right shoulder."

The bullet holes in the clothes are 4 inches below the collars, right of mid-line.

This is the truth you're desperate to obfuscate.

Quote

 

 

I am amazed you have not brought the bunched jacket up yet....oh wait......

Oh wait -- it matches Bennett's back wound location!

Imagine that...

Bennett's account is consistent with the testimonies of Linda Willis and Nellie Connally, who described JFK reacting to the first shot/throat shot.

Quote

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have no pet theory in any of this, it is all speculation like I said earlier, but that somehow eluded you.....like so many other things.

You're claiming that Bennett's account is speculation?

This is the textbook example of Pet Theorist naysaying.

Quote

Goodbye Cliff Varnell.

From yet another dime-a-dozen witness basher...

Edited by Cliff Varnell

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On 9/30/2018 at 10:22 AM, Mathias Baumann said:

whatever caused President Kennedy to bring his fists up to his throat was NOT the shot of a high-powered rifle from the 6th floor window. Look at my posts above and specifically at the crowd in the Altgens photo right in front of the TSBD. Those people would not be smiling anymore if the 135 db pain-inducing shock wave of a supersonic bullet had just passed only a few meters above their heads.

Some discussions re: "startle reactions"....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/08/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-775.html

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/08/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-787.html

 

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47 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:
Quote

But it's only been 1.7 seconds since anyone in the limousine was HIT by a bullet, which is hardly enough time for people to start reacting to the EFFECTS of the shots being fired (i.e., the wounding of people in Dealey Plaza).

David,

The people in front of the TSBD were supposedly close to the line of fire. So they would have been exposed to a 135 db sonic boom. 110 db is the average human pain threshold. The muzzle blast would've been even louder (about 150 db). How long does it take you to react to a painful stimulus? About 2 seconds?

Quote

In humans, changes in electrical activity in neck muscles can occur within 9 msec after the onset of an auditory stimulus and within 14 msec in jaw muscles.

http://acoustics.org/pressroom/httpdocs/138th/davis.htm

Do you really think those people would still be smiling if they had just heard a terribly loud noise?

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Quote

David von Pain: So, should a "firecracker"-like sound have resulted in all of the witnesses jumping out of their skins (in unison)? I wouldn't expect to see anything like that.

Have you never wondered why the first shot was described different than the others? Or why Bonnie Ray Williams thought it came from outside the building (the backfire of a motorcycle)?

Edited by Mathias Baumann

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Mathias...

I make the sound level argument related to Williams/Norman/Jarman since they are within 15 feet of the muzzle...

Though loud, on the ground and more than 50 feet away would not nearly be as loud as the decibel range you offer...

Sound pressure degrades quickly over distance...

As for what these men say...  I'd take it with a grain of salt.... if they were that close they would have been deaf after the first shot, let alone 3 of them...  that they are not sure if the shots came from overhead... and that they could hear the bolt and shells is pure fallacy... not possible if a 130 to 150 decibel noise occurred less than 15 feet from their ears...

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1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Mathias...

Though loud, on the ground and more than 50 feet away would not nearly be as loud as the decibel range you offer...

Sound pressure degrades quickly over distance...

 

David,

that may be true for the muzzle blast but what about the sonic boom? It would've passed just a few meters over the crowd's heads. Certainly close enough to startle people.

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5 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

David,

that may be true for the muzzle blast but what about the sonic boom? It would've passed just a few meters over the crowd's heads. Certainly close enough to startle people.

Fair enough, yet you may wish to revisit the level of sound at street level with those motorcycles passing by....

I'm not of the conclusion that shots were fired from the TSBD....  despite what the "witnesses" say...  Dal Tex roof, 2nd or 3rd floor, courthouse, knolls...

Those most startled by a noise are the SS agents who have turned...  and Hickey as the QM finishes the turn..  the film makes it even more obvious...

598494003_162JFKfacingrightwillilsrunningstopsHickeylooks.jpg.8518b5c31ea465ae5140c117db2875de.jpg

I believe a shot hit the street fired around z156 - which explains the reason for the "accidental" splice

JFK was looking to his left up to the splice.... and is immediately looking to his right...  frames are missing here... (as Chris proved in Math Rules)

605782572_Z153andZ156JFKpositionheadlookinghisleftwith157158turningright.thumb.jpg.1c3bbe14a3618e2804295e799004d8c2.jpg

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33 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Fair enough, yet you may wish to revisit the level of sound at street level with those motorcycles passing by....

David,

 

Just for my own curiosity, did the police have their sirens on during the motorcade, even intermittently ?

 

Steve Thomas

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21 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

I will correct you: you are wrong.

2007 is calling---old news. PAT SPEER also is on record as having briefly changed his mind once; big deal. So has Deb Galentine and a few other conspiracy advocates. Look at ole Freddie: he used to be a conspiracy advocate!

Of course at least one shot came from the sniper's nest; so what? The question is: did OSWALD fire the weapon or did someone else? In addition, this has 0.0 to do with shots from OTHER locations. In addition to authors Flip de Mey and myself, author Barry Ernest also obviously posits this belief, as he does not believe Oswald was on the 6th floor firing, regardless of whether or not his rifle was used, etc.

Expand your mind and come down from the silliness. Having an open mind is a good thing. It is not a crime to change your mind and go back to a position you had before. Otherwise, there would be no divorced people in this world: "Hey---you told your first wife you loved her? WHY are you remarried then? You are not allowed to change your mind...and I have this love letter to your first wife that 'proves' you are wrong now." See my point? :)

That's what I expected from you : an irrelevant answer…
You did you not address my point.
You just indulged yourself. Well, good for you.
I know that you don't like the truth. So let me rephrase it for you. First of all, like it or not, YES, I was absolutely right : author Flip de Mey writes in his books that there is no question the shots came from the sniper's nest. Period.
Or, maybe you didn't read his book ?
The point is, you praised a book that claims that the shots came from the sniper's nest.
Now, I know perfectly well that conspiracy theorists will claim that it was not Oswald who fired the shots. I know. I have been studying the case for thirty years and have read 150+ books, so I know perfectly well what you conspiracy theorists claim.
But that was not the point.
Mind you, in case you didn't notice I had not mentioned Lee Oswald in my post. Nor did I mention my wife, for that matter…
But you did, in your irrelevant, besides-the-point answer.
You totally missed my point.
Again, I repeat, you praised an author who claims that the shots came from the sniper's nest.
So, I asked you whether you were in essence telling members of this forum that they should believe that the shots came from the sniper's nest ?
But, entangled in your foggy and ever-changing beliefs, you proved incapable of answering me straightforwardly, and instead you chose to use sarcasm and nonsense about wives (such an out-of-scope answer !).
Well, whatever…
Other members here can debate. I'll keep my energy for them.

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33 minutes ago, François Carlier said:

That's what I expected from you : an irrelevant answer…
You did you not address my point.
You just indulged yourself. Well, good for you.
I know that you don't like the truth. So let me rephrase it for you. First of all, like it or not, YES, I was absolutely right : author Flip de Mey writes in his books that there is no question the shots came from the sniper's nest. Period.
Or, maybe you didn't read his book ?
The point is, you praised a book that claims that the shots came from the sniper's nest.
Now, I know perfectly well that conspiracy theorists will claim that it was not Oswald who fired the shots. I know. I have been studying the case for thirty years and have read 150+ books, so I know perfectly well what you conspiracy theorists claim.
But that was not the point.
Mind you, in case you didn't notice I had not mentioned Lee Oswald in my post. Nor did I mention my wife, for that matter…
But you did, in your irrelevant, besides-the-point answer.
You totally missed my point.
Again, I repeat, you praised an author who claims that the shots came from the sniper's nest.
So, I asked you whether you were in essence telling members of this forum that they should believe that the shots came from the sniper's nest ?
But, entangled in your foggy and ever-changing beliefs, you proved incapable of answering me straightforwardly, and instead you chose to use sarcasm and nonsense about wives (such an out-of-scope answer !).
Well, whatever…
Other members here can debate. I'll keep my energy for them.

CE 399 and CE 567 reportedly matched the markings of two FBI test-fired bullets from the rifle in evidence. Microscopic photos of the markings were shown in the WC Volumes. CE 567 was examined in the 90's and found to contain blood, skin and muscle tissue. How could that be a plant?

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4 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Have you never wondered why the first shot was described different than the others? Or why Bonnie Ray Williams thought it came from outside the building (the backfire of a motorcycle)?

I'll repeat this question that I asked LNer Ed Bauer in a 2014 Facebook discussion (which went unanswered)....

"But who in all of Dealey Plaza could be considered to be exhibiting "startle" reactions at ANY time during the whole shooting timeline as seen in Zapruder's home movie? Anyone at all? If so, please point them out, because I sure haven't seen any definitive signs of any startle reactions by anybody. And we KNOW that loud rifle shots WERE being fired at the President. Ergo, in my opinion, a lack of startle reactions throughout the ENTIRE film [or in any of the still photos] really proves....nothing." -- DVP; August 28, 2014

Edited by David Von Pein

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