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Mathias Baumann

Why did Oswald not bring his revolver into the Book Depository?

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I think this is a very important question.

Let's assume Oswald intends to murder President Kennedy either as part of a conspiracy or as a lone gunman. So he carefully makes a bag to hide his rifle from Buell Frazier and his other co-workers. Why would he leave his revolver at home, a weapon that he could conceal much more easily? After all, he HAD to take into account that police would immediately seal off the crime scene (although that didn't actually happen). The revolver would then have been his only conceivable chance to force his way out of the building.

Now I guess you could argue that Oswald didn't see a realistic option to get out of the building at all. So if the police apprehended him a revolver in his pocket would of course be interpreted as a sure sign of his involvement in the assassination. But having left behind HIS RIFLE at the crime scene Oswald had to know that if he was apprehended it would only be a matter of time until the rifle would be traced back to him.

So in my opinion, leaving behind your revolver doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you're planning to commit the crime of the century, does it?

It does make sense however if you assume that Oswald was blithely unaware that there was going to be an assassination that day. Is there evidence that he wasn't aware of what was going to happen? I think there is some, for instance:

1) Oswald did not seem to know at all that President Kennedy was coming to town. He allegedly asked one of his coworkers what all the commotion outside was about.

2) When approached by officer Baker Oswald was reportedly drinking a coke and did not appear excited at all. Peculiar behavior for a man who has just killed the most powerful man in the world.

Some people even think there's definitive photographic evidence that Oswald was in fact standing outside the School Book Depository at the very moment of the attack.

So might Oswald have been completely innocent? Did he really just bring curtain rods to work that day? I don't think so.

Lee Harvey Oswald was NOT a normal person. However, he was not a lone madman either, as the Warren Commission would have us believe. Oswald was obviously in some way or another playing spy games. He'd lived in Russia. He was married to a Russian woman. He'd tried to infiltrate anti-Castro Cubans. He'd handed out pro-Castro leaflets. He had met with KGB agents in Mexico City. Even a cursory glance at his past would show that he was (or pretended to be??) a Communist sympathizer. In other words, an investigation of his background would certainly raise the question if Cuban or Russian intelligence might have been behind his actions.

Oswald was therefore the best patsy imaginable if the conspirators intended to prevent a thorough Investigation. Just a year before the world had been on the brink of a nuclear war, mind you, so a conspiracy traced back to Moscow or Havana would haven been political dynamite. So we can conclude that if there was a conspiracy in Dallas Oswald was a vital part of it. (Gilberto Lopez might have played the same role in Tampa...)

So if the conspirators needed Oswald in order for the plot to work, how did they make sure he was going to get caught red-handed? They had two options:

1) Involve him directly by making him one of the shooters.

2) Place evidence at the crime scene that would incriminate Oswald.

Option 1) again raises the question why Oswald did not have his revolver on him. Option 2) however does not explain why Oswald left the Book Depository and went home to get his revolver, if he wasn't aware that evidence of HIS guilt would be found.

That leads us to option

3) Make Oswald HIMSELF leave incriminating evidence at the scene.

That was of course the most preferable option, because for the conspirators it had the additional charm of not risking exposure when planting the evidence. And it would also explain why Oswald did not immediately leave the building, but when he did, he went to get his gun. Because when finally he had figured out what had happened, it dawned on him that he was to be the fall guy and that he needed a means to protect himself.

Now the question might arise: "Why did Oswald then conceal the rifle if he was even unaware of the presidential motorcade? After all, rifles being shown around were not unheard of at the School Book Depository?"

Now this is mere speculation, but I think that Oswald was constantly being manipulated by people who exploited his fascination with all things connected to the world of spies. So I think it's possible that someone might have come up with a plausible "spy game" scenario that involved Oswald smuggling his rifle into the TSBD and concealing it behind some boxes. That would also explain Oswald's "I'm a patsy" comment.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mathias Baumann

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https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-on-november-22-1963

Mathias - Not sure if you've had a chance to read this...  it examines some of the things Oswald needed to have done if he indeed planned to kill JFK that day...  let me know what you think..

DJ

"Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that Oswald was indeed at the SE 6th floor window at 12:30, and shots from there are fired by him, AND that he planned to kill JFK with the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. ....."

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Oswald lied about a few things, one was the trip to the rooming house.

The revolver was tossed on Oswald inside the TT

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20 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Oswald lied about a few things, one was the trip to the rooming house.

The revolver was tossed on Oswald inside the TT

Hello Bart,

thank you for your response.

By TT you mean the Texas Theater, right? So you think the police planted the gun on him? What's your evidence for that?

Another question: I've always wondered why Frazier and his wife were so adamant that the bag Oswald carried to work was not tall enough to conceal a rifle. If I recall correctly, the figure standing next to "Prayer man" in the Darnell fillm IS Frazier. And yet Frazier can't remember who that person next to him was... how do you reconcile these two facts? May Frazier be trying to hide his own involvement in the "spy game" to frame Oswald?

 

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-on-november-22-1963

Mathias - Not sure if you've had a chance to read this...  it examines some of the things Oswald needed to have done if he indeed planned to kill JFK that day...  let me know what you think..

DJ

"Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that Oswald was indeed at the SE 6th floor window at 12:30, and shots from there are fired by him, AND that he planned to kill JFK with the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. ....."

Hello David,

fascinating article, especially this part:

Quote

Back now to his knowledge of the motorcade route and the timing. What information is available to this Lone Nut master planner of JFK's death as to WHEN the motorcade would pass by the TSBD? He'd have to know this to at least be looking out a window at the time so as to take a shot... right?

We come to find that Secret Service agent Winston Lawson tells Chief Curry that the luncheon was to begin at 12:15... that the plane was to land at 11:30 and after a 45 min motorcade thru Dallas, arrive at the Trade Mart. VIP invitations had been sent and received which stated the Luncheon was to start at 12 NOON.

So basically even if he was able to know about what Lawson said to Curry, or had seen an invitation to the event, to this LONE NUT KILLER the motorcade would have to pass by the TSBD between 11:55 and 12:10... well before 12:30 in any case. At the same time he knew he had to retrieve the bag with the rifle in it, reassemble the rifle and be at some window facing Elm when he drove by or miss out on his chance for immortality. We make the assumption that Oswald MUST determine a time for the limo and JFK to pass by his place of work; otherwise how can he carry out his plan?

I had already forgotten about this. Surely Oswald didn't follow the motorcade in his chrystal ball...

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https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/1998/november/jfk-special-report-the-cop-and-the-killer/
"I don’t own a gun," the man said. "I didn’t have that gun. They planted that on me when they arrested me."
"Have you ever owned a gun of your own?" Rose asked evenly.
"No," he retorted. "I never owned one."

 

To this day I still have not seen any initials inside the grip of the gun that is at NARA, it will be one of my missions once I get there.

 

 

With regards to Frazier, I refer to ROKC posts "BWF where's Your Rider" in the section below there are a few threads regarding him and Linnie Mae.

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/f28-sept-1963-24-nov-1963

Edited by Bart Kamp

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While laboring for the FBI   I, we were advised to never carry a weapon, for if discovered we would be under suspicion by the suspects or killed as the enemy. We were told never to accept a  drink by the suspect(s) either open or closed.

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This is petty but significant:  Oswald, staying at the Paine house, didn't even get in a proper morning wash before work on the 22nd, and throughout his day in jail protested that he wasn't allowed a shower.  That famous, saggy-necked T-shirt looks like yesterday's model as well.

Um, wouldn't you?...

Edited by David Andrews

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Thanks for all the anwers.

Hello Bart, your first link doesn't seem to be working. I get the message

"Unfortunately we can not connect you to the page you seek. Many reasons could explain this, but please give us a heads up if you think it is an error on our part. And if you would like to take another look at the site, you might find something to spark your interest here. Thanks for spending time with us at dmagazine.com"
8 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

8 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

With regards to Frazier, I refer to ROKC posts "BWF where's Your Rider" in the section below there are a few threads regarding him and Linnie Mae.

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/f28-sept-1963-24-nov-1963

Concerning your second post, I've read Mick Purdy's article and a few of the comments below. So, if I got the gist of it, Mick believes, Frazier did not take Oswald to work on November 22 1963.

He argues that no-one saw Oswald walking over to Frazier's place. I don't find that remarkable at all. Oswald was certainly of great interest to a select few with CIA's counterintelligence, but before November 22 1963 12:30 am Oswald was a nonentity to most other people in the world. For the same reason I find the testimony of Willie Randle's neighbors suspicious. How could they be sure it was Oswald they saw? Had they seen him before? How could they tell the bag was big enough to carry a rifle? That sounds more like some sort of malicious gossip and I guess that's why the police didn't follow up on this.

On the other hand we do not only have the testimony of Frazier and Randle BUT also the testimony of Oswald himself. He confirmed that Frazier had given him a ride, although he denied the curtain rods story.

But I've found one other very interesting nugget of information concerning the bag:

Quote

At that time, a long bag became an item of interest. Perhaps one that was constructed inside the TSBD to transport the. 36” wooden sill strip from the SN would suffice.

I've never heard about this story. Does anyone have more information?

 

7 hours ago, Harry J.Dean said:

While laboring for the FBI   I, we were advised to never carry a weapon, for if discovered we would be under suspicion by the suspects or killed as the enemy. We were told never to accept a  drink by the suspect(s) either open or closed.

Hello Harry,

are you implying that Lee Harvey Oswald may have received intelligence training?

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Mathias

When as a Fair Play for Cuba Committee officer and FBI informant, Chicago,those were some

of the cautions given me by Bureau agents.

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There’s been a lot of re-enactments of Oswald during the shooting.  I’d like to see a re-enactment from the moment LHO gets out of Wesley’s car and:

- gets the rifle in the TSBD without anyone even seeing him carrying a package into the bldg

- gets the rifle to the 6th floor and stashed there with people all around without anyone seeing him

- either finds a safe time and place to assemble the rifle before the shooting, or waits for the worker to finish eating his lunch on the 6th floor just minutes before the motorcade comes by and somehow knows when he’s done and goes to the 6th floor to assemble the rifle with no time to spare

- somehow assembles the rifle without a screwdriver ever found 

I’d like to see the hilarity of someone trying  to re-enact all that and make it look plausible.

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6 hours ago, Mike Kilroy said:

There’s been a lot of re-enactments of Oswald during the shooting.  I’d like to see a re-enactment from the moment LHO gets out of Wesley’s car and:

- gets the rifle in the TSBD without anyone even seeing him carrying a package into the bldg

- gets the rifle to the 6th floor and stashed there with people all around without anyone seeing him

- either finds a safe time and place to assemble the rifle before the shooting, or waits for the worker to finish eating his lunch on the 6th floor just minutes before the motorcade comes by and somehow knows when he’s done and goes to the 6th floor to assemble the rifle with no time to spare

- somehow assembles the rifle without a screwdriver ever found 

I’d like to see the hilarity of someone trying  to re-enact all that and make it look plausible.

Good points. And wasn't the rifle hidden so well that it took the Dallas Police a considerable time to find it? I think it was hidden WELL BEFORE the shooting.

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13 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Link fixed, it was doubled..

Okay, thanks, I've read it. So Oswald said he never owned a revolver and that he didn't bring one into the movie theater. Well, I guess, I might have said the same thing if I had been caught trying to shoot a police officer.

The problem I see is this: If Oswald really was COMPLETELY innocent and not involved at all, how did the conspirators manage to set him up as the "patsy"? And why did Oswald leave his workplace if he didn't suspect SOMETHING? Now imagine that right next to the place you're working the crime of the century takes place. Would you just leave and watch a movie? I certainly wouldn't. I'd stay to find out what exactly just happened and wait for the police to take my testimony. The fact that Oswald leaves betrays some sort of guilty conscience.

And WE KNOW he owned a revolver. It can be seen in the backyard photos. I've yet to see persuasive evidence that the photos were faked. I've shown them to an expert friend of mine and he couldn't find anything wrong with them.

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