Umbrella Man pic?

[Chuck Schwartz]

the conspirators were willing to kill the President of the United States in  broad daylight in front of hundreds of witnesses. So, yes, they would risk having the Umbrella man there to signal when JFK was coming to make the murder happen.   3 liberal leaders (JFK, RFK and MLK) were murdered by  conservative .... 

[Andrew Prutsok]

10 minutes ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

the conspirators were willing to kill the President of the United States in  broad daylight in front of hundreds of witnesses. So, yes, they would risk having the Umbrella man there to signal when JFK was coming to make the murder happen.   3 liberal leaders (JFK, RFK and MLK) were murdered by  conservative .... 

It’s mind boggling anyone could see it any other way.

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

the conspirators were willing to kill the President of the United States in  broad daylight in front of hundreds of witnesses. So, yes, they would risk having the Umbrella man there to signal when JFK was coming to make the murder happen.

So Umbrella Man was indeed the Leonard Bernstein of the Assassination Orchestra?  All these highly trained riflemen with assassination-quality scopes, not to mention spotters with assassination-quality binoculars, and they needed A HIGHLY CONSPICUOUS GUY ON THE CURB WITH AN UMBRELLA to signal when JFK was coming?  So the riflemen were actually watching Umbrella Man for their cue even though the limousine was coming down Elm Street in full view?  What was Walkie Talkie man doing - was he just back-up in case the umbrella malfunctioned?  Maybe things are moving too fast for me, but I thought these two were anti-Castro zealots sending an obscure message about the lack of air coverage at the Bay of Pigs.  Maybe Umbrella Man was doing BOTH - would that work for everyone?  Oh, what was Oswald doing - watching Umbrella Man or shooting into the air, or what?  I think I'm being driven in the direction of Sandy's theory - the conspirators were so arrogant they didn't care about ANYTHING, up to and including Oswald being on the TSBD steps.

[Larry Hancock]

Can't resist a couple of tactical comments.  First, it would be desirable to slow the limo down in any kill zone and this particular stretch of street would be a place where the driver would normally be accelerating.  To slow him down you need to get his attention and you need to make him pause (this is before the shooting starts).   The UM would stand out to the driver since nobody else on the street had an open umbrella and it was not raining...if you look at the Z film I think you can catch a point where Greer is actually looking towards UM - as he should have been since the raised umbrella did stand out at that point in time.  It would have stood out even more if it was being moved up and down, don't know if the film captures that.  As I recall Greer himself says that he also was disconcerted, hence distracted and possibly slowed, when he saw people on the overpass - a major violation of all Secret Service security protocols. That was something that had actually been covered in the security briefings with DPD by SS advance man Lawson.  People on an overpass are a risk for several reasons including simply dropping items into an open limo (something that happened to RFK in Los Angeles but that's another story).  The whole thing would be compounded if there were another man by the UM raising and lowering his arm in an unusual fashion.

I would add that there had been a minor panic in the Tampa motorcade when something was thrown into the president's limo; it turned out to be candy but there had been threats in Tampa and it could well have been a bomb. 

Of course none of this proves anything but if you glance through an infantry manual on vehicle or convoy ambushes, some action to slow or otherwise get the attention of the target is routinely mentioned.

In addition a paramilitary attack on Elm street would not need a signal to start the shooting,  however it might well need a visual signal to abort the attack.

None of this proves anything however a number of the oddities that we see on Elm Street that day - like a stalled pick up diverting the police on the overpass and an ambulance pick up at Houston and Elm doing the same thing only moments before the motorcade arrives certainly fit tactically - even more so because if the motorcade had been on schedule the ambulance would have been in the intersection itself....picture the effect of that.  If nothing else it would slow the vehicles even more significantly.

 

[Vince Palamara]

The only other motorcade I could find with someone holding and umbrella on a warm day (non-raining day, mind you): Houston, 1962, the year before!

Edited October 18, 2018 by Vince Palamara

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

The only other motorcade I could find with someone holding and umbrella on a warm day (non-raining day, mind you): Houston, 1962, the year before!

Interesting picture.  Ropes up to keep the crowd back, cops spaced out on foot facing them.  Only four motor cycle cops, everyone spaced out wide and clear from the six deep crowd.

[Michael Cross]

13 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Interesting picture.  Ropes up to keep the crowd back, cops spaced out on foot facing them.  Only four motor cycle cops, everyone spaced out wide and clear from the six deep crowd.

Yes, but no agents on JFK's car, windows open with people hanging out, people on the balcony . . .

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Can't resist a couple of tactical comments.  First, it would be desirable to slow the limo down in any kill zone and this particular stretch of street would be a place where the driver would normally be accelerating.  To slow him down you need to get his attention and you need to make him pause (this is before the shooting starts).   The UM would stand out to the driver since nobody else on the street had an open umbrella and it was not raining...if you look at the Z film I think you can catch a point where Greer is actually looking towards UM - as he should have been since the raised umbrella did stand out at that point in time.  It would have stood out even more if it was being moved up and down, don't know if the film captures that.  As I recall Greer himself says that he also was disconcerted, hence distracted and possibly slowed, when he saw people on the overpass - a major violation of all Secret Service security protocols. That was something that had actually been covered in the security briefings with DPD by SS advance man Lawson.  People on an overpass are a risk for several reasons including simply dropping items into an open limo (something that happened to RFK in Los Angeles but that's another story).  The whole thing would be compounded if there were another man by the UM raising and lowering his arm in an unusual fashion.

I would add that there had been a minor panic in the Tampa motorcade when something was thrown into the president's limo; it turned out to be candy but there had been threats in Tampa and it could well have been a bomb. 

Of course none of this proves anything but if you glance through an infantry manual on vehicle or convoy ambushes, some action to slow or otherwise get the attention of the target is routinely mentioned.

In addition a paramilitary attack on Elm street would not need a signal to start the shooting,  however it might well need a visual signal to abort the attack.

None of this proves anything however a number of the oddities that we see on Elm Street that day - like a stalled pick up diverting the police on the overpass and an ambulance pick up at Houston and Elm doing the same thing only moments before the motorcade arrives certainly fit tactically - even more so because if the motorcade had been on schedule the ambulance would have been in the intersection itself....picture the effect of that.  If nothing else it would slow the vehicles even more significantly.

 

Everyone else may be aware of this (I wasn't), but this page has some plausible photo analysis of Witt in fact being Umbrella Man and the umbrella in fact not having been pumped up and down:  https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/tum.

At the bottom of the same page, the "Chamberlain" link has some examples of political cartoons prominently featuring Chamberlain and his black umbrella.

I realize that Jim Fetzer is pretty much persona non grata with many folks, but he has kind of an interesting discussion from 2011 in which he notes that Witt testified to the limousine stopping:  "At this time there was the car stopping, the screeching of tires, the jamming on of brakes, motorcycle patrolman right there beside one of the cars."  Because this is consistent with what at least some other witnesses said and arguably supports the Z film having been altered, Fetzer seems willing to cut Witt some slack and concede that he probably was there.  See  http://whokilledjfk.net/tink_thompson.htm.  (If Witt were a plant, why would he have said THAT?)

If Witt was in fact the Umbrella Man, I think it becomes extremely difficult to make the case for anything sinister (for all the reasons I've previously stated, including the thread I started this morning).

The fact that we don't have all sorts of clear photos and film of Umbrella Man and Walkie-Talkie Man (or DCM, if you prefer) is a matter of pure happenstance.  I'm frankly surprised we don't, and perhaps they are out there somewhere.  But the likelihood of such photos and films existing after the assassination makes it UNTHINKABLE to me that, with a supposed pro-Castro patsy sitting on the 6th floor, conspirators with any brains would have placed two anti-Castro zealots like Roy Hargraves and Felipe Vidal Santiago in these roles for any purpose.  Unless we believe that every DPD officer and SS agent in the vicinity was in on the conspiracy, it also seems to me that there would have been a high likelihood of UM and DCM being tackled and exposed on the spot.  (The fact that this didn't occur suggests to me that the actions of UM and DCM were probably not as suspicious as is hypothesized.  Did any other witnesses take special note of UM and DCM?)

To accept that UM and DCM were Roy Hargraves and Felipe Vidal Santiago and were acting as suspiciously as is hypothesized, I'd have to buy into Sandy's suggestion that "These conspirators didn't really care about ANYTHING."  But, then, why was a patsy necessary at all?

Edited October 18, 2018 by Guest

[Steve Thomas]

In the past, I have tried to make the case that the DCM is Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro.

 

He was the President of the Alpha 66/SNFE group that met at the house on Harlendale.

One of the Directors of the Group,  Raoul Castro owned a Rambler Station Wagon.

I believe that Orcarberro was also the dark-complected driver of the Rambler that Roger Craig saw pick up Lee Harvey Oswald after the shooting.

 

David Boylan has affirmed to me that the DCM is Vidal Santiago based on assertions of the Santiago family.

 

Would you say that this man is 5'11", 158 lbs, has brown hair, wears dark glasses, and has a dark complexion?

 

The physical description provided above is not that of the Dark Complected Man, but of Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro.

See 5/26/64 FBI Report of SA Wallace Heitman, page 5

http://www.maryferre...p;relPageId=223

 

an INS description of Rodriguez here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11250#relPageId=7&tab=page

lists him at 69” tall, 145 lbs, brown hair, brown eyes and born in 1928 in Santiago, Cuba.

 

Report of Wallace Heitman dated May 26, 1964 regarding Manuelel Rodriguez Orcarberro.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=219&tab=page

This is CD 1085 page 219.

 

His report says that Manuel Rodriguez was voluntarily interviewed on February 10^th and May 20^th, 1964.

On page 2 of Heitman's report (page 220 of CD 1085), it says that “Rodriguez registered as an alien of Dallas, Texas on September 6, 1963, at which time his address was reflected as 1208 Hudspeth Street. His last prior address was listed as listed as 5310 Columbia Street, Dallas.” The report says, “A photograph of Rodriguez appears in this file.”

 

I haven't found this photograph, so I can't compare it to the Dark Complected Man.

 

Steve Thomas

[Andrew Prutsok]

On 10/17/2018 at 9:26 PM, Vince Palamara said:

The only other motorcade I could find with someone holding and umbrella on a warm day (non-raining day, mind you): Houston, 1962, the year before!

Owning the libs, early 60s style.

[Ron Bulman]

9 hours ago, Michael Cross said:

Yes, but no agents on JFK's car, windows open with people hanging out, people on the balcony . . .

True.  They were moving faster though, not stopping for a shot.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[Ron Bulman]

6 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

In the past, I have tried to make the case that the DCM is Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro.

 

He was the President of the Alpha 66/SNFE group that met at the house on Harlendale.

One of the Directors of the Group,  Raoul Castro owned a Rambler Station Wagon.

I believe that Orcarberro was also the dark-complected driver of the Rambler that Roger Craig saw pick up Lee Harvey Oswald after the shooting.

 

David Boylan has affirmed to me that the DCM is Vidal Santiago based on assertions of the Santiago family.

 

Would you say that this man is 5'11", 158 lbs, has brown hair, wears dark glasses, and has a dark complexion?

 

The physical description provided above is not that of the Dark Complected Man, but of Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro.

See 5/26/64 FBI Report of SA Wallace Heitman, page 5

http://www.maryferre...p;relPageId=223

 

an INS description of Rodriguez here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11250#relPageId=7&tab=page

lists him at 69” tall, 145 lbs, brown hair, brown eyes and born in 1928 in Santiago, Cuba.

 

Report of Wallace Heitman dated May 26, 1964 regarding Manuelel Rodriguez Orcarberro.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=219&tab=page

This is CD 1085 page 219.

 

His report says that Manuel Rodriguez was voluntarily interviewed on February 10^th and May 20^th, 1964.

On page 2 of Heitman's report (page 220 of CD 1085), it says that “Rodriguez registered as an alien of Dallas, Texas on September 6, 1963, at which time his address was reflected as 1208 Hudspeth Street. His last prior address was listed as listed as 5310 Columbia Street, Dallas.” The report says, “A photograph of Rodriguez appears in this file.”

 

I haven't found this photograph, so I can't compare it to the Dark Complected Man.

 

Steve Thomas

Doesn't look like Felipe.

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 8:09 PM, Lance Payette said:

So Umbrella Man was indeed the Leonard Bernstein of the Assassination Orchestra?  All these highly trained riflemen with assassination-quality scopes, not to mention spotters with assassination-quality binoculars, and they needed A HIGHLY CONSPICUOUS GUY ON THE CURB WITH AN UMBRELLA to signal when JFK was coming?  So the riflemen were actually watching Umbrella Man for their cue even though the limousine was coming down Elm Street in full view?  What was Walkie Talkie man doing - was he just back-up in case the umbrella malfunctioned?  Maybe things are moving too fast for me, but I thought these two were anti-Castro zealots sending an obscure message about the lack of air coverage at the Bay of Pigs.  Maybe Umbrella Man was doing BOTH - would that work for everyone?  Oh, what was Oswald doing - watching Umbrella Man or shooting into the air, or what?  I think I'm being driven in the direction of Sandy's theory - the conspirators were so arrogant they didn't care about ANYTHING, up to and including Oswald being on the TSBD steps.

Assassination orchestra?  it was a public murder in broad daylight.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[Steve Thomas]

On 10/18/2018 at 10:47 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Doesn't look like Felipe.

Ron,

 

I have read several times that the Dark Complected Man was pumping his fist up and down.

Personally, I don't see that in the photos I have looked at. To me, it appears that he is waving with an open hand.

The reason I mention it is that isn't holding your closed fist up in the air a sort of universal sign for soldiers in the brush to halt? (at least according to movies I've seen) *grin*

 

Steve Thomas

[Larry Hancock]

Steve, I think I would forego the movies and check out the standard infantry hand signals guides...grin.  Probably focusing on WWII hand signals.  

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=sprLW-CBL8WatgWdzJ2IDA&q=infantry+hand+signals&btnK=Google+Search&oq=infantry+hand+signals&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l3j0i22i30l7.19265.26900..28260...3.0..0.96.1557.24......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i131j0i10.UaRh5KvlRQc