In-depth Interviews with Tosh Plumlee

[Rick McTague]

Just read both interviews on JFK Countercoup2 with Tosh Plumlee.  He offers insights into Roselli, Nicoletti and others and their involvement in the Dealey Plaza operation.

He sounds reasonable and credible in these interviews; maybe they are old news here but it was sure new to me.  Connections with military intelligence abound.  Roscoe White being in Hawaii when LHO was there.  LHO present at the "Illusionary Warfare Training at Nagshead, North Carolina in 1959 prior to him going to language school and going to Russia."  Both White and LHO undergoing jungle warfare training.  His view of the assassination from the south knoll, after he and his partner Sergio searched the site for sniper teams.  My only wish is that there was a plat of Dealey Plaza where he could point out where he was, and where the three shooting teams were.  Each team consisting of a spotter, shooter and breakdown man.  He smelled gunpowder at the south knoll.

Much good information here that helps round out what happened that day.

Thanks

[Guest]

This is from the much-despised McAdams site, but it does give some perspective: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/Tosh_Plumlee.htm.

The problem is that, for reasons known only to themselves, wannabes come out of the woodwork in droves whenever there is a high-profile event.  I experienced this myself as a lowly deputy county attorney in cases that scarcely rivaled the JFK assassination.  It's quite a bizarre phenomenon, since people will go so far as to cheerfully confess to murders they didn't commit, but it's real and a nuisance to law enforcement.  Plumlee certainly sounds like he fits the mold.  Claiming to have worked for the CIA or the Mafia is always a fairly safe bet because efforts to discover the truth aren't going to get a lot of cooperation.

"Three teams of shooters, each consisting of a spotter, shooter and breakdown man" sounds far more plausible even to me than "a TSBD order-filler with a clunky Italian surplus rifle plinking away from the sixth floor during his lunch hour."  So naturally when someone like Plumlee comes forth with his tale, he concocts a scenario that fits preconceived notions of what a Presidential assassination carried out by powerful forces "should" have looked like.  The fact that the Lone Nut scenario is so counterintuitive is one of the things that gives it the ring of truth - to me, anyway.

[Denny Zartman]

Plumlee, much like Oswald himself, was so eager to join the United States military, he applied before he was of legal age. He also continued to receive plum assignments in the 1980's. To me, he sounds less like a wannabe and more like a person who appears to be in a position to know.

8 hours ago, Rick McTague said:

Just read both interviews on JFK Countercoup2 with Tosh Plumlee.  He offers insights into Roselli, Nicoletti and others and their involvement in the Dealey Plaza operation.

He sounds reasonable and credible in these interviews; maybe they are old news here but it was sure new to me.  Connections with military intelligence abound.  Roscoe White being in Hawaii when LHO was there.  LHO present at the "Illusionary Warfare Training at Nagshead, North Carolina in 1959 prior to him going to language school and going to Russia."  Both White and LHO undergoing jungle warfare training.  His view of the assassination from the south knoll, after he and his partner Sergio searched the site for sniper teams.  My only wish is that there was a plat of Dealey Plaza where he could point out where he was, and where the three shooting teams were.  Each team consisting of a spotter, shooter and breakdown man.  He smelled gunpowder at the south knoll.

Much good information here that helps round out what happened that day.

Thanks

Hi Rick, this was a good find. Thanks for sharing it.

I'd say that the idea that Plumlee was part of the operation but told that he was actually part of a counter-plot is plausible.

The interview was an interesting read. I think I had read it a while ago, but the significance of some of the names didn't make the impact that they should have. And I probably dismissed it earlier because I don't believe there was a real "counter-plot" meant to stop the assassination, but recruiting certain members for compartmentalized functions and telling them that they're part of a counter-plot makes sense to me.

From what I could tell Plumlee sounds believable, though that by itself proves nothing.  That he seems to have been a career military man that was entrusted to high level jobs on into the '80's does speak toward his credibility, in my opinion. There are enough names and details in his story that it seems debunking it would be fairly easy.

The way Plumlee described some elements of military intelligence and the Mafia to be so intertwined as to be almost interchangeable was noteworthy. Plumlee's explanation as to why and how the CIA would use the Mafia also makes sense. The CIA can provide co-ordination, plenty of assistance, and generous payments, and keep their hands clean by having the Mafia do the dirty work. The interview also helped put into perspective what could get lost to readers of today: back then, being part of a CIA "black ops" program wasn't some dastardly deed, but a coveted position that reflected positively to one's patriotism.

[Denny Zartman]

I think many JFK researchers that were around when the Roscoe White story first broke feel burned by it and tend to think of it as yesterday's cold trail. I also think there's a chance that there was an organized and aggressive disinformation campaign to discredit the White story at the time it was breaking. It's unfortunate that what could have been a key witness in supporting part of the story did discredit himself by recovering some of his memories via hypnosis. At this point, I don't think an absolutely solid case can be made for White's involvement.

It's too bad, because I personally believe that circumstantial evidence indicates Roscoe White was probably involved.

[Denny Zartman]

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2018/10/tosh-plumly-with-rosselli-in-dallas.html

Quote

The whole Castro assassination plot, from the Jim Wave, and mongoose, and all that, Roselli was aware of what was going on on those particular things because in some cases the shooters and people that were involved in those things, particularly Truillio, came out of organized crime. I don't say that families of organized crime conspired and sent these people in. These people had tremendous contacts with military intelligence even to the point to where, in some cases, that operatives would be referring to some people as "Colonels" and things like that, that were actually organized crime.

...

I was already instructed through Bennett that we were to pick up John Roselli, and he was referred to as the Colonel, and I knew who that was because I had already had previous contact on many, many occasions with Johnny Roselli.

...

Roselli was refereed to as the "Colonel" by more than one CIA, not operative, but agent.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/rich_n.htm

Quote

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, as soon as we have a xerox copy made of the card, we will identify it and sign the copies as we have done the other. 
Meanwhile, let us pass on to another point. I think you have mentioned that you saw Ruby at a certain meeting at which your husband was present and there was a general discussion of guns or Cuban. refugees. 
Mrs. RICH. Your statement is partially correct. 
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what is actually correct? 
Mrs. RICH. At the first meeting there were four people present. There was a colonel, or a light colonel, I forgot which. I also forget whether he was Air Force or Army. It seems to me he was Army. And it seems to me he was regular Army. There was my husband, Mr. Perrin, myself, and a fellow named Dave, and I don't remember his last name. Dave C.--I think it was Cole, but I wouldn't be sure. 
Dave came to my husband with a proposition. 

Mr. HUBERT. There were only four people present? 
Mrs. RICH. Let me clarify the statement about Dave. He was a bartender for the University Club on Commerce Street in Dallas. I became associated with him and subsequently so did my husband. Well, at first it looked all right to me. They wanted someone to pilot a boat---someone that knew Cuba, and my husband claimed he did. Whether he did, I don't know. I know he did know boats. So they were going to bring Cuban refugees out into Miami. All this was fine, because by that time everyone knew Castro for what he appears to be, shall we say. So I said sure, why not--$10,000. I said that is fine. 

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from that that you and your husband were to receive $10,000 for your services? 
Mrs. RICH. Well, I was incidental. 
Mr. HUBERT. No; I would like to know. 
Mrs. RICH. I say I was incidental. My husband was. 
Mr. HUBERT. Your husband was to receive $10,000? 
Mrs. RICH. Yes. 
Mr. HUBERT. Who told him so? 
Mrs. RICH. The colonel. 

...

Mr. HUBERT. What was the general discussion? 
Mrs. RICH. Feeling each other out. I just kind of sat there and listened. The general gist of it was we were going to obtain a boat, the colonel could obtain various things, and nothing specific was mentioned on what the various things were at that time. And we were going to go and pick up--they were deciding where to pick them up-pick up Cuban refugees, and bring them over to the main coast, meaning Miami, which, quite frankly, I adhered to because at that time, as I say, Castro is or was what we suppose him to be today, and quite frankly I had seen underprivileged countries and at that time thought it was a good idea. 
Mr. HUBERT. Was the sum of $10,000 mentioned at that meeting? 

Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was. 
Mr. HUBERT. Who mentioned it? 
Mrs. RICH. The colonel. And it seemed awfully exorbitant for something like this. I smelled a fish, to quote a maxim. 
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you thought that there was too much money involved for this sort of operation? 
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did. 

...

Mr. HUBERT. Did another meeting take place? 
Mrs. RICH. Yes; it did. 
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the first? 
Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably 5 or 6 days, give or take a day or 2. 
Mr. HUBERT. At the same place? 
Mrs. RICH. Yes. 
Mr. HUBERT. Was it at night? 
Mrs. RICH. It was. 
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get there then? 
Mrs. RICH. We went in our own car, but with Dave with us. At that time, Dave and my husband and I were in our car. 
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Tell us what happened. 
Mrs. RICH. Well, we got there and at that time there was the colonel and another middle-aged woman, kind of a real old granite face I would describe her, steel-gray hair. Looked rather mannish. And there was a rather---- 
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know her name? 
Mrs. RICH. No; I was introduced. Names were mentioned around. I don't recall it. And then there was another rather pugnacious-looking fellow, who looked at though he might have been an ex-prizefighter. 
Mr. HUBERT. Were you introduced to him? 
Mrs. RICH. I was introduced to everyone. 
Mr. HUBERT. Who else was there? 
Mrs. RICH. The colonel, the woman, and the prizefighter type, a couple of other men that just kind of sat off in the corner. One of them looked rather dark, like he might have been Cuban or Latin American, and Dave, my husband, and myself. 
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened at that meeting. 
Mrs. RICH. Well, apparently from what I could discern, they had some kind of a hitch in their plans. And at that time I point blank spoke up and said, "Well, suppose we discuss the plans in full before we"--meaning my husband and myself--"get into this. I would like to know what we are getting into. And at this point you know by now I certainly have a say in this matter." Then it came out-- boom---quite blank. We were going to bring Cuban refugees out---but we were going to run military supplies and Enfield rifles in. 
Mr. HUBERT. Who made that statement? 
Mrs. RICH. I believe it was the Latin-looking fellow that first made the statement. But the colonel clarified it. The colonel seemed to be the head of it and seemed to do all the talking. 
Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform? 
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was. 
Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe what the colonel looked like? 
Mrs. RICH. Vaguely. I would say approximately 45 to 50, perhaps a little younger. He was kind of bald, and that may have made him look older. As I recall, a rather slightly built man--and I would not swear to it. 
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any other characteristics? 
Mrs. RICH. Not that I can recall, sir. 
Mr. HUBERT. Was he in summer uniform? 
Mrs. RICK. Yes; he was. 

Mr. HUBERT. Short sleeves? 
Mrs. RICH. If my memory serves me; yes. 
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you whom he was representing in the matter? 
Mrs. RICH. Not exactly. That fact never did come clear to me. A group of people. 
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he indicate in anyway that he was acting officially, in his official capacity? 
Mrs. RICH. No; he was not acting officially. 
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that? 
Mrs. RICH. Because of certain statements that were made statements such as that the guns would have to come in via Mexico, meaning the Enfield rifles. Statements like "We have been taking stuff off of the base for the last 3 months getting prepared for this" meaning military equipment, I suppose small arms, or explosives, et cetera, as I understood it. 
Mr. HUBERT. He was also in uniform on the first occasion? 
Mrs. RICH. Yes. 
Mr. HUBERT. The same type of uniform? 
Mrs. RICH. Yes. 
Mr. HUBERT. You say you never saw him out of uniform? All of the times you saw him he was in uniform? 
Mrs. RICH. Yes. 
Mr. HUBERT. Summer uniform? 
Mrs. RICH. Yes. 

...

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby any more after the third meeting? 
Mrs. RICH. I did not. I did not see him in fact at the third meeting. 
Mr. HUBERT. I mean after the second. 
Mrs. RICH. Oh, perhaps on the street. 
Mr. HUBERT. You did not converse with him about this matter at all? 
Mrs. RICH. I did not. I wanted no truck with the man. 
Mr. HUBERT. And your reason for leaving Dallas, you say, was that---- 
Mrs. RICH. I smelled an element that I did not want to have any part of. 
Mr. HUBERT. And that element was what? 
Mrs. RICH. Police characters, let's say. 
Mr. HUBERT. Well, specifically it was, as I understood your testimony, that you suddenly identified the man who was at the third meeting, but not at any other, as possibly being the son of Vito Genovese. 
Mrs. RICH. Possibly. 
Mr. HUBERT. And that you made that recognition, or you associated that man whom you saw with Vito Genovese, solely because you had seen a picture of Vito Genovese. 
Mrs. RICH. That's correct. 

Mr. HUBERT. And you came to the conclusion, then, that Vito Genovese and that group of .people were involved in this matter. 
Mrs. RICH. Within my own mind; yes. I thought--then I got thinking perhaps the higher-up that the colonel spoke of was perhaps the element I did not want to deal with that was running the guns in, and God knows what else. 
Mr. HUBERT. Why didn't you report it to the authorities in the interval between the third meeting and the time you left Dallas? 
Mrs. RICH. For the simple reason that I was hesitant about mentioning anything about my husband's past. I did not know how much of what my husband had told me was true. I did not know how much of that he knew before I knew it, or how deeply he was involved in anything. And quite frankly if my husband was still alive, I would never have gone to the FBI. 
Mr. HUBERT. But you already told us at the end of the second meeting you had decided to tell the authorities. 
Mrs. RICH. Not when I see that element there. 
Mr. HUBERT. But that element does not affect---- 
Mrs. RICH. That element, if what my husband had told me was true, could have involved him a lot deeper than I suspected. And quite frankly I am not stupid enough, shall we say, to believe if I ever went to the authorities and that element was involved that I would ever live to tell a second story. And if my suppositions were true as to who the man's identity really is--a combination of fear for myself and protecting my husband. And at that time I thought, I suppose many citizens do, well, let the next fellow do it, they will catch them eventually. I chose to close my eyes. 

Interesting coincidence? 

[Larry Hancock]

Just for reference, those interested in Tosh might want to do some detailed searching to trace back his various interviews, articles an other remarks about both his activities and how he heard about the details of the assassination plot.  

[Ron Bulman]

Testing my memory?  He came up through Meyer Lansky as an accountant, discovered a traitor to his organization who  ended up in the Gulf of Mexico with a "pea in his brain".  Then somehow he ended up involved with document reproduction for a government entity in California. Fake passports, drivers licenses, military Id's, even Secret Service Credentials.  Could he have been a plant in the aftermath?   

 

 

Edited October 21, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[Larry Hancock]

Ron, I think you may be thinking of the wrong fellow in your post,  sounds like you have a certain gentleman from Los Angeles in mind rather than Plumlee the pilot.

[Ron Bulman]

I didn't just flunk that test, I scored less than zero.  How I transposed Tosh Plumlee with Chauncey Holt I can't answer.  I have read a little about both but no background on Plumlee.

[David Boylan]

Ron,

Tosh used to be a member of this forum. I'm sure a lot of his old posts are still around.

 

[Larry Hancock]

I suspect there are (there was certainly a volume of them on the CompuServe JFK many years ago as well)  but there are also a good number of older media interviews, newspaper and magazine and other articles that should surface with some work....he's been pretty vocal about his experiences for quite a long time.  There a goodly number of FBI interviews and internal memoranda that will show up with some digging as well.  Probably a lot easier to find now than when I had to dig them out of NARA and pay page by page...grin.

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Ron,

Tosh used to be a member of this forum. I'm sure a lot of his old posts are still around.

 

Thanks.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/profile/1680-william-plumlee/

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/profile/1848-sherry-sullivan/

[Ron Bulman]

This get's deep in a hurry.

 

[David Andrews]

57 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

This get's deep in a hurry.

 

Them's were the days around here.

Edited October 17, 2018 by David Andrews

[Steve Thomas]

On 10/15/2018 at 6:47 PM, Denny Zartman said:

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2018/10/tosh-plumly-with-rosselli-in-dallas.html

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/rich_n.htm

Interesting coincidence? 

Denny,

 

You quoted, " The whole Castro assassination plot, from the Jim Wave, and mongoose, and all that, Roselli was aware of what was going on on those particular things because in some cases the shooters and people that were involved in those things, particularly Truillio, came out of organized crime."

 

I tend to dismiss a lot of what Fletcher Prouty says. I find him bombastic. But he did say one thing that struck me. I was watching a conference with him and John Judge and a few other people (there was one guy who was a big advocate of the idea that organized crime was responsible... but I can't remember his name right now).

Anyway, Prouty was asked if he was ever involved in any assassination plots or other skullduggery. He paused for a long five or ten seconds, and replied with one word, "Trujillo". I thought that was poignant.

 

Steve Thomas

 

PS: Many people think that the "Colonel" involved in the Nancy Perrin Rich affair was L. Robert Castorr.

 

The Mexia Daily News from Mexia, Texas · Page 1

November 7, 1957

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/11876796/

Mexia Man Receives Appointment Earl McKeilh, (center) is pictured with L. Robert Castorr, of Dallas, Southwestern division manager of the National Federation of Independent Business, and Si N. Meadow, district manager of the organization from Austin.

 

“Earl McKeith was coming out of a local bank Tuesday and came face to face with a man who was one of his fellow Army officers in the early thirties. Earl didn't recognize him but L. Robert Castorr, of Dallas, immediately grabbed Earl's arm and said "I know you." Mr. Castorr. who is now a- colonel in the Active Reserve serving as inspector and advisor to the 90th Division in Texas., and Mr. McKeith, a Reserve. Army captain, were first lieutenants when they served with each other in the Second Infantry Division. They last saw each other in 1930. Col. Castorr served with Merrill's Marauders in Burma during World War II.” “Mr. Meadow was accompanied to Mexia by L. Robert Castorr, the Southwestern division manager for the National Federation of Independent Business. Mr. Castorr formerly served in the U. S. Army with Mr. McKeilh.”

 

Steve Thomas