Jump to content
The Education Forum
David Josephs

FBI shows KLEINS never got C2766

Recommended Posts

One of the most misunderstood aspects of this case remains the evidence of the purchase of the rifle associated with the shooting of JFK - C2766.

By 10:41 pm 11/22/63 NY Time (9:41 in Chicago) a teletype is sent from NY to DALLAS & CHICAGO discussing the shipping information found at Crescent Firearms (Feldsott)
It spells out a June 18, 1962 order and a March 23, 1963 order which were sent to Kleins with similar rifles yet NOT showing that C2766 was part of those shipments...

 

 

 

The above sent following an interview with LOUIS FELDSOTT which was finally made official in June 1964.

 

 

The very next day, 11/23, SA Chapman reiterates these results yet adds that despite this conflict the Klein records showed C2766....

 

 

So as it stands on Nov 23rd, Kleins was NOT shipped C2766 in the June 18, 1963 order for which FELDSOTT provided info and docs
Yet also on Nov 23rd, this postal money order is found in at least 3 different places at 3 different times and all with the name HIDELL

It is not until the 24th do we learn that the NY office of the FBI (I believe) has done a "further review" of the Crescent records shows C2766 received from Italy and subsequently sold to Kleins... but now the shipment related to an order in January and April 1962 finally arrives in Feb 1963... 10 months later.

 

 

We learn that when the SS gets to Waldman and Kleins Saturday they are told by Waldman that he gave the ORIGINAL MICROFILM to FBI SA DOLAN…. Who in turn has it reproduced on Dec 4th (2 weeks later?) and then RETURNS A COPY TO WALDMAN… but we’ve never seen these, have we?  We have virtually identical conflicting reports from the FBI as to whether DOLAN took the film or whether WALDMAN kept it….  Yet SOP dictates that once the FBI has anything original, anything needed can be created and represented as “original” when all we’re shown are the copies of copies….

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=195&tab=page is page 188 of CD7 stating that WALDMAN KEPT THE MICROFILM
The very next page has DOLAN signing the report by himself now and stating that he gave WALDMAN A RECEIPT FOR THE MICROFILM which he takes...

That we never, ever see or know of anyone who bought another 40" Fucile Corte rifle from the 100 rifle shipment to Kleins should not worry anyone...  :huh:

 

 

Harry Holmes tells a story about what happens the next morning, 11/23, when he goes into work at the Dallas GPO.... and is recounted in a doc the US Postal Service prepared to illustrate their helpfulness to the FBI/SS that weekend...

Holmes claims to have found the PMO by 11/23 noon

They appear to have combined Holmes’ BS with FBI BS to create Universal BS… 

If a DALLAS INSPECTOR (Holmes?) has a record of PMO 2,202,130,462…   what happened to it?

 

 

The next morning, on Saturday, when I came in, the inspector who was on duty in the lobby watching the boxes told me, “You’ve got an inspector up there sitting in your office.”

---
I called it in immediately to the chief on the open line to Washington and said, “I’ve got the money order number that Oswald used to buy this gun, and according to the records up there, they had shipped it to this box that he had rented at the main office in Dallas at that time

But if it could not be carried on a person, such as a pistol, like a shotgun or a rifle, then it was $1.25 or $1.37 extra. Shipping charges were also added, so I added those together, took that figure and called around to all the different stations and the main office where these crews were checking stubs.    
It wasn’t ten minutes that they hollered, “Eureka!” They had the stub!  -Notes from Harry Holmes 11/22 (this all occurs at the Dallas GPO prior to 1pm)

This would be a slam dunk except for a couple things… 

One - There was no stub…  or if there was, it was not retained or entered into evidence to PROVE there ever really was a PMO with that number…  Before splitting, the PMO should have looked a little like this and a blank one would have made a great exhibit…   

Two - Holmes couldn't know which BOX this PMO was sent since all they would have seen is the far right stub with the amount, the date and the #.....

"according to the records up there, they had shipped it to this box that he had rented"

Unless they kept a master record of all PMO in a master book as each PMO is written there would be no way to get the ADDRESS from the STUB..  

“Eureka!” They had the stub!

 

 

To trace the HIDELL Kleins order they needed to trace a specific rifle from receipt to inventory to order to packing to shipping....  but as of Nov 23rd, there was not yet proof C2766 was sold to Kleins and if you read my RIFLE essay you know that the 10 packing slips and the rest cannot possibly be related to these non-existent 100 40" FC rifles.

The order # on the microfilm run matches a number on the HIDELL Order form - 270502.  The Hidell order form connects C2766 with a VC # Scribor kept track of... which in turn refers to those 10 packing slips which came from Italy with FELDSOTT's original order in 1960.  There is literally no way they would be used as packing slips for an order FROM Crescent to anyone.. additionally each of these lists the rifles as "38 - E" which was the international designation...  When Crescent sells them in the US they are given the more familiar "T-38"

 

With the info available in Chicago from 11:30 am 11/22 until Oswald is questioned about HIDELL in the afternoon of 11/23 … there is no way they could have found the HIDELL order #270502 since they had yet to find the incoming rifle order from Crescent to Kleins with the FELDSOTT info.  Even if Chicago knew the HIDELL name, they needed to first find C2766….  And since Chicago didn’t know about the “further review” from the 24th on the 22nd or 23rd…. they would have been left with the 2 reports above which spell out clearly C2766 was not found in Klein records….

Endnote:

Despite Holmes claim, it is not until 8:30 that night and even later when finally produced, that SS Asst Chief Paterni asks one of his Special Agents to get the original or a copy...

 

 

How again can the Postal Money Order be found in 2 different states at 2 different times...   notice the repeated use of "paid money order" just so you know it's legit and all...

:up

 

 

 

Edited by David Josephs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FBI shows KLEINS never got C2766

~ big sigh ~

Once again, we have to endure a conspiracy theorist looking for reasons to justify what they want to believe --- in this instance (yet again) a CTer who wants to believe that Oswald never once touched Rifle No. C2766, even though there's a vast amount of evidence to prove that LHO owned and possessed that exact weapon.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/Oswald Ordered The Rifle

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/The Hidell Money Order

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/Guns And Other Evidence

 

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice work Dave.

So on the 23rd the FBI finds that the serial number of the rifle was not sent to Klein's.

 

What do you make of that "further review" the next day that now says, hey we did find it after all.  Was not the FBI at Klein's for something like 8 straight hours that night?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

 

 

~ big sigh ~

Once again, we have to endure a conspiracy theorist looking for reasons to justify what they want to believe --- in this instance (yet again) a CTer who wants to believe that Oswald never once touched Rifle No. C2766, even though there's a vast amount of evidence to prove that LHO owned and possessed that exact weapon.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/Oswald Ordered The Rifle

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/The Hidell Money Order

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/Guns And Other Evidence

 

What about the evidence the money order was not processed by the Post Office but produced afterwards courtesy of Holmes with assistance from the FBI/Washington regarding it's routing.  It's been researched and documented in depth.  It's fraud perpetrated on the people of the United States including you, by the FBI and or CIA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

What about the evidence the money order was not processed by the Post Office but produced afterwards courtesy of Holmes...

Are you referring to the "Out of Sequence" theory, in which CTers imply that the Oswald/Hidell money order couldn't have been purchased in March of '63 because the serial number on it is way too high?

Well, that's always been a very silly and easy-to-debunk theory that CTers like John Armstrong just haven't thought through logically....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1058.html#The-Serial-Number-On-The-Money-Order

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excerpt from the marathon "Money Order" discussion (2015—2018)....

SANDY LARSEN SAID:

I just go where the evidence leads me, David. The money order wasn't processed, and probably wasn't even deposited in the bank.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Okay, Sandy. Believe what you want. But I disagree.

But can you give me your opinion as to why the alleged plotters were so incompetent when it came to pretty much everything relating to the alleged "phony" rifle purchase?

E.G.,

1.) Wrong paper stock used for the money order.

2.) No bank stamps.

3.) The rifle order and money order go from Dallas to Chicago in 24 hours, which is an impossibility if we're to believe the conspiracy theorists.*

4.) They "shipped" the WRONG RIFLE, per DiEugenio and other CTers (sending "Hidell" a 40-inch Carcano instead of the 36-incher that "Hidell" ordered via the American Rifleman magazine ad). Why did they manufacture that little piece of confusion if the ENTIRE rifle transaction is nothing but a fantasy from the ground up---including ALL of the paperwork?

5.) They forgot the proper legal forms for the rifle (which CTers insist should have been included with the rifle shipment; although Jean Davison in the past has made it quite clear, via documentation, that such a legal requirement only applied to HANDGUNS in 1963, not rifles).

* Incredibly, however, a letter that was mailed in January 1952 could go all the way across the country overnight--from California to New York. (Audio below.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MP3-Audio-Clip-Regarding-1952-Air-Mail-Service.png
 

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Nice work Dave.

So on the 23rd the FBI finds that the serial number of the rifle was not sent to Klein's.

 

What do you make of that "further review" the next day that now says, hey we did find it after all.  Was not the FBI at Klein's for something like 8 straight hours that night?

As I wrote in my article, the FELDSOTT packing slips with the "38 -E" designation was directly refuted by Rupp and FELDSOTT as not being the documents related to any order shipped to Klein's...

In the US the rifles are either T-38 or further broken down to their specific size and model:  Troop Speciale, Fucile Corto, or Cavalleria (the #’s 38 or 91 refer to the original introduction year of the Carcano – 1891 or 1938.  Carcanos

DVP can pontificate all he likes...  the FBI reports themselves show that it would have been impossible for anyone to trace that rifle to HIDELL/OSWALD since the one order mentioned from June 18, 1962 did NOT

repeat after me Davey...   C2766 WAS NOT SHIPPED TO KLEINS IN JUNE 1962....  "N" 2766 was as offered by your honest FBI agents....

Yet CENTURY ARMS offers a shipping check in log which shows NO PREFIX AT ALL on hundreds of rifles...  that can't be right Davey...  how could these rifles possibly be tracked without the full serial number? 

Why again can't THIS be the our rifle?  That does seem to say - Carbine 41" - the FC rifle was 40.7 inches long... 

529538813_FBID-103CenturyArmsships2766toVermont.jpg.bcc5cf9323fc4a851cda2b2f777df42e.jpg

Now it gets really interesting...

The ad for this rifle from Klein's runs from August 62 thru Feb 63...

Since the TS carbine was indeed 36" long... and the Secret Service concluded that the order was for a TS scoped rifle (see bottom graphic) the one glaring problem we have is that the 36" TS Carbine was advertised with an "ADJUSABLE REAR SIGHT" --- in fact all the ads for these rifles say "ADJUSABLE REAR SIGHT"  (and please don't tell me these people haven't a clue about describing a rifle they have for sale... for a year.)  and they all say 36" Carbine.

1910691815_kleinsads-smaller.jpg.c9e6cc6adf03952a782f9bffc694f11c.jpg

 

So which rifles were ordered by Klein's? 

It appears that Klein's had originally ordered the adjustable sight 36" carbine described in the ads... (from March to June 1962, one has to wonder which rifles were shipped for C20-T750 orders...)


Originally it was the "91 TS"..  as we can see, that 92.2cm / 36.3" inch overall length with an adjustable sight is virtually identical to the 91/38 TS, except for the sight

Yet the rifle in evidence is almost 41" long and has a fixed sight.  Klein's order changed to "M91/38" which designates one of 3 rifles:

-    In the US the rifles are either T-38 or further broken down to their specific size and model:  Troop Speciale, Fucile Corto, or Cavalleria (the #’s 38 or 91 refer to the original introduction year of the Carcano – 1891 or 1938  -

 

An adjustable rear sight makes a scope somewhat redundant... especially for the distances in Dealey Plaza....   so I have a hard time accepting that KLEIN's shipped a fixed sight rifle to everyone who ordered one with an adjustable sight.... and put a scope on it to boot.... :huh:

 

CE139 is not 36" nor does it have an adj rear sight....  the changed Klein's order identifies the only rifle which could replace it  -  the M91/38 the "TS" is implied for why would they order rifles for ads which are running, that are not the ad rifles?

 

No matter, you and the others claim the FC was ordered and shipped since THAT was what was found... tautological reasoning... :up

No matter that Klein's employees support that only 36" fixed sight rifles would get a scope and a special price....

No matter than not one other FC rifle from those 100 supposedly shipped to Klein's has ever been seen... despite them selling - on ad which was corrected in March1963 and ran thru Nov 63...  except the changes were slow..  The April 1963 ad still has the length and weight of the earlier ads but now says "Rear Open Sight"

 

1653210594_kleinriflead.jpg.4f7e05fb6ba84b52c9731964e7437ec7.jpg

 

1592861539_April1963adforC20-T750a40inchrifleat7lbs-sameclipartsameprice.jpg.43ca31c461ba08a68c27b2fd721b9e96.jpg

 

Starting in May 63 they were aware enough to make these changes under the assumption that they received a shipment of FC rifles in Feb 1963 to satisfy these ad's orders.... we now have a 40" 7 lb rifle with a scope... 

 

and regardless of DVP's position here... I for one would like to see any single order for any one of these advertised rifles from receipt to delivery...

 

If they were waiting for the Feb rifle shipment to fulfill C20-T750 orders then the KLEIN'S Microfilm with the HIDELL order should also have a few similar orders for the same item #...

But I showed you the bait and switch DOLAN pulled on us regarding this microfilm...

Until there is some outside corroboration for these 100 rifles, the evidence clearly shows C2766 not only was never sent to KLEINS but it may have never left HARBORSIDE warehouse...

 

this is the first withdrawal from the C2766 shipment from Italy to Adams (Crescent)  not a single carton that appears on the Lifschultz shipping document to Klein's

was removed from that inventory....

1405894828_Kleins-tracingC2766thruHarborside-notinthatshipment-smaller.thumb.jpg.4978bcc19b4b9b968265d5a01da88afa.jpg

 

Furthermore... all of the remaining withdrawals do not include the carton numbers and ends Oct 31, 1962.
Crescent sent RUPP the KLEIN's order to fulfill - according to FELDSOTT - in June 1962... the first batch of rifles Rupp pulls to clean, test, repair does not include a single carton shipped to KLEIN'S....  86 cartons of rifles were still in inventory after the 10/31 withdrawal

 

That a certain rifle appears at a certain place ... this does not create incriminating evidence until ALL the connections are made.

Everything we've seen offered by the WCR and beyond confirms that the rifle found... should not and could not be connected to Oswald....

... and that the additional evidence manufactured: the obviously fake HIDELL IDs, the obviously fake Postal Money Order,

and the FBI's own reports specifically NOT connecting C2766 with any of the contemporaneous FELDSOTT documentation ....

 

873207218_RuppremovesriflesfromHarborside-norecordofserialnumbersandonlyHIScartonnumbersarekept-smaller.thumb.jpg.f05bc2dd21fe916b349073d1f7c623ab.jpg

 

 

To come full circle here... the FBI had info related to a specific order and specific rifle serial # from FELDSOTT Friday eve.

The FBI reports thru the morning of 11/24 that there was no C2766 on a June 18 1962 order... while also mentioning an order for rifles in March 1963 which has not documentation at all..

We also cannot forget that the first batch of rifles from THAT inventory at HARBORSIDE did not occur until AUGUST 1962....

 

2100813946_Kleins-provingtheriflefoundwasnottheoneorderedorshippedtoeitherKLEINSorHIDELL.thumb.jpg.12bd31d4b734078bc0490e4a8d11746b.jpg

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, brother, WC apologists continue to trip up trying to ‘splain how we’ve been told nothing but the truth about the Magic Carcano rifle that shot the Magic Bullet at JFK.  It was paid for, wouldn’t you know, with an uncashed, un-deposited Magic Money Order made out $21.45 (the cost of a $19.95 rifle with scope from Kleins).

Only problem is, for a week the FBI had been saying that the rifle, with scope, only cost  $12.78 from Kleins.  Why?  Because Hoover himself had been fooled by a somewhat confusing Klein’s ad that showed a $12.78 rifle (without a scope) listed above the picture of a rifle with a scope.  Ooops!  Hoover may not have known the correct price of the rifle, but he sure as heck knew it was Oswald’s handwriting on the Magic Money Order.  Amazing!

Airtight.jpg

 

Enmeshes.jpg

 

Berkshire_Eagle.jpg


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really think that this is hard to get around:

 

To come full circle here... the FBI had info related to a specific order and specific rifle serial # from FELDSOTT Friday eve.

The FBI reports thru the morning of 11/24 that there was no C2766 on a June 18 1962 order... while also mentioning an order for rifles in March 1963 which has not documentation at all..

We also cannot forget that the first batch of rifles from THAT inventory at HARBORSIDE did not occur until AUGUST 1962....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsMOTimeline.pdf   -  a timeline with EST detailing the different activities related to the procurement of this slip of paper

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf - Everything you might want to know abut that rifle

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRifle.pdf - was the rifle in DAY's eventually CE139?

From what I can see...  it was not the same rifle....

613389889_Allen-DayandrifleVERYlargeandclear-noMAUSERorMCmarkingsv3-smaller.jpg.f3f5db5d9a6814d3d25a936a9b0b4b82.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, David Josephs said:

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsMOTimeline.pdf   -  a timeline with EST detailing the different activities related to the procurement of this slip of paper

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf - Everything you might want to know abut that rifle

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRifle.pdf - was the rifle in DAY's eventually CE139?

From what I can see...  it was not the same rifle....

613389889_Allen-DayandrifleVERYlargeandclear-noMAUSERorMCmarkingsv3-smaller.jpg.f3f5db5d9a6814d3d25a936a9b0b4b82.jpg

 

Yikes, in the entire history of researchers comparing pictures of the historical rifle, seems like a gamble. Can you make a clearer/bigger photo comparison?

Edited by Micah Mileto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 8:06 AM, David Josephs said:

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsMOTimeline.pdf   -  a timeline with EST detailing the different activities related to the procurement of this slip of paper

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf - Everything you might want to know abut that rifle

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRifle.pdf - was the rifle in DAY's eventually CE139?

From what I can see...  it was not the same rifle....

613389889_Allen-DayandrifleVERYlargeandclear-noMAUSERorMCmarkingsv3-smaller.jpg.f3f5db5d9a6814d3d25a936a9b0b4b82.jpg

 

I'm sorry

On the rifle in evidence - CE139 - There were specific identifying marks on key areas of the rifle...

On the afternoon of 11/22, Lt. Day walks out of the TSBD with this rifle and a very good photo is taken...  good enough that the rifle's markings can be compared to those of the rifle in evidence CE540 & CE541 ... where the markings as DAY described them are found

Mr. BELIN. What did that have reference to?
Mr. DAY. That was stamped on the scopic sight on top of the gun. On the gun itself, "6.5 caliber C-2766, 1940 made in Italy."

The center image shows something that seems to say "CAL" and has some scratches which may be writing

In my graphic... #4 points to that scratched area which we can now see has "Made in Italy" scratched into it with a year that seems to be 1941 and some sort of graphic which may be the same as the bottom image of this page of CE541

#2 points to the difference in the exaggerated bezel.  In CE139 (on left near the #4) there is a clear lip after the area widens, there is no lip on the TSBD image

#3 seems to show how the end of the scope is not the same as the scope on the TSBD rifle Day is carrying

The most glaring to me is #1 where the "CAL 6.5" is not there at all...

774675865_Allen-DayandrifleVERYlargeandclear-coparingCALstamptoTSBDrifle-notthere.jpg.3cf599cca9e7d85f79211ba83675db0c.jpg

Well, that and the fact the serial numbers don't match

2134947076_rifle-c2766-comparison-smaller.jpg.afca0ea922a411f88707dddae5bc94f8.jpg

 

img_1134_265_200.jpg

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

David, those two lower  links are showing access"403  forbidden" to me.

https://kennedysandking.com/content/author/361-davidjosephs

Here is the entire list of articles....  they come up as PDFs in a window yet can be linked out to these addresses, maybe you have to do that from the site itself...

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/rifle-money-order-timeline 

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-mauser-the-carcano-and-the-lt-day-rifle

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...