Where is the Rest of the Ammo & Cleaning Supplies

[Al Carrier]

Some time back, I posted on another forum, the issue of missing ammunition and cleaning supplies for the Oswald rifle. I don't know if it has been touched on here, but feel it needs to be pointed out to those who support Oswald as a shooting in DP.

The official findings found that Oswald was proficient with this rifle and had not only practiced with it but also fired at General Walker using it. If this is the case, then where is the cleaning supplies, such as rods, bore brushes, bore jags, solvents, oils, patches, etc., that he used to maintain the weapon and have it in the condition as it was found.

The ammunition was packaged in boxes of 20. He supposedly fired one round at Walker, three at JFK and one live round was found in the chamber. That totals five with fifteen outstanding. Did he practice with fifteen and simply come to DP with four rounds remaining from the box?

Where did he purchase the ammunition? The FBI was unable to track it down, even though there was limited retailers who sold the ammunition in the N.O. and Dallas area. Since he purchased the rifle and scope through mail order, why did he not purchase the hard to find ammo on the same order, as it was available through Klein's on the order form?

Has Marina ever mentioned seeing cleaning supplies or ammunition for the rifle she claimed her husband practiced dry firing?

Would Oswald take the time to dispose of the cleaning supplies and traces of ammuntion (extra bullets, box(es), etc.) when he left an easily traceable rifle at the scene of the crime? It was easily traceable as he supposedly carried his false ID at the time of his arrest, in the name of which it was purchased and shipped to the PO Box.

Comments?

Al

[John Geraghty]

one has to think , where are the other rifles used that day, were they destroyed or kept as trophies?

john

[Ryan Crowe]

Some time back, I posted on another forum, the issue of missing ammunition and cleaning supplies for the Oswald rifle. I don't know if it has been touched on here, but feel it needs to be pointed out to those who support Oswald as a shooting in DP.

The official findings found that Oswald was proficient with this rifle and had not only practiced with it but also fired at General Walker using it. If this is the case, then where is the cleaning supplies, such as rods, bore brushes, bore jags, solvents, oils, patches, etc., that he used to maintain the weapon and have it in the condition as it was found.

The ammunition was packaged in boxes of 20. He supposedly fired one round at Walker, three at JFK and one live round was found in the chamber. That totals five with fifteen outstanding. Did he practice with fifteen and simply come to DP with four rounds remaining from the box?

Where did he purchase the ammunition? The FBI was unable to track it down, even though there was limited retailers who sold the ammunition in the N.O. and Dallas area. Since he purchased the rifle and scope through mail order, why did he not purchase the hard to find ammo on the same order, as it was available through Klein's on the order form?

Has Marina ever mentioned seeing cleaning supplies or ammunition for the rifle she claimed her husband practiced dry firing?

Would Oswald take the time to dispose of the cleaning supplies and traces of ammuntion (extra bullets, box(es), etc.) when he left an easily traceable rifle at the scene of the crime? It was easily traceable as he supposedly carried his false ID at the time of his arrest, in the name of which it was purchased and shipped to the PO Box.

Comments?

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Al,

This has always struck me as strange, If one practices as much as the WC tried to make us believe Oswald did, then something would have turned up , empty ammo cartons, cleaning rods, bore patches, cleaning solvents, oil , etc.

Of all the years ive been shooting, I never seem to get rid of something after I clean up after a shoot, just last night I found my bushing wrench for my 1911 that I was looking for for 6 months lol, and a set of NM sights for one of my M1's . I had stored these in a box in the garage and for the life of me couldnt remember where I placed them.

IMHO Oswald was told to order that rifle, nothing more, nothing less. It reminds me of how the gangbangers work over here, telling the little guy to "hold" this until I need it. As they dont want anything linking them to the gun while not in use.

It just makes no sense if Oswald owned that rifle and shot it as much as the WC said he did, that there was not "extras" found........Makes no sense.

And his revolver goes right along with this.......

[Jim Root]

Al

My vintage rifle of the same era has the cleaning rod stored under the barrel. Does the rifle found in the TSBD building have the same configuration?

The one remaining bullet "was necessary" to match the neutron activation analysis of the recovered bullet fragments from the Kennedy and Connally shooting with the Walker bullet. That test was done in 1977 by the HSCA.

Jim Root

Edited December 11, 2004 by Jim Root

[Richard J. Smith]

Some time back, I posted on another forum, the issue of missing ammunition and cleaning supplies for the Oswald rifle. I don't know if it has been touched on here, but feel it needs to be pointed out to those who support Oswald as a shooting in DP.

The official findings found that Oswald was proficient with this rifle and had not only practiced with it but also fired at General Walker using it. If this is the case, then where is the cleaning supplies, such as rods, bore brushes, bore jags, solvents, oils, patches, etc., that he used to maintain the weapon and have it in the condition as it was found.

The ammunition was packaged in boxes of 20. He supposedly fired one round at Walker, three at JFK and one live round was found in the chamber. That totals five with fifteen outstanding. Did he practice with fifteen and simply come to DP with four rounds remaining from the box?

Where did he purchase the ammunition? The FBI was unable to track it down, even though there was limited retailers who sold the ammunition in the N.O. and Dallas area. Since he purchased the rifle and scope through mail order, why did he not purchase the hard to find ammo on the same order, as it was available through Klein's on the order form?

Has Marina ever mentioned seeing cleaning supplies or ammunition for the rifle she claimed her husband practiced dry firing?

Would Oswald take the time to dispose of the cleaning supplies and traces of ammuntion (extra bullets, box(es), etc.) when he left an easily traceable rifle at the scene of the crime? It was easily traceable as he supposedly carried his false ID at the time of his arrest, in the name of which it was purchased and shipped to the PO Box.

Comments?

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Al,

"Has Marina ever mentioned seeing cleaning supplies or ammunition for the rifle she claimed her husband practiced dry firing?"

Marina's HSCA deposition:

Q. Apart from the time Lee went ot go target shooting that you have told us about, what other times do you remember seeing the rifle?

A. Well, like in New Orleans he would be sitting and cleaning and polishing the silly thing.

Q. And when you saw cleaning, what was he doing to the rifle?

A. Oh, he was putting rags around and putting oil or something on it.

Q. Did he do that in Dallas as well?

A. He might have, but I do not remember it not to give you the detailed description of it.

So, according to Marina, she saw him cleaning the rifle, or at least oiling it. I've also wondered where the ammo came from, but I've never seriously questioned whether he bought the rifle or actually had it in his possession. I think he did. I also question that the rifle, after it was found, would be immediately traceable to Lee. It was purchased by "A. Hidell". Who would have known who Hidell was if Lee hadn't been captured as he was?

BTW, how many rounds does the MC clip hold?

RJS

[Richard J. Smith]

Some time back, I posted on another forum, the issue of missing ammunition and cleaning supplies for the Oswald rifle. I don't know if it has been touched on here, but feel it needs to be pointed out to those who support Oswald as a shooting in DP.

The official findings found that Oswald was proficient with this rifle and had not only practiced with it but also fired at General Walker using it. If this is the case, then where is the cleaning supplies, such as rods, bore brushes, bore jags, solvents, oils, patches, etc., that he used to maintain the weapon and have it in the condition as it was found.

The ammunition was packaged in boxes of 20. He supposedly fired one round at Walker, three at JFK and one live round was found in the chamber. That totals five with fifteen outstanding. Did he practice with fifteen and simply come to DP with four rounds remaining from the box?

Where did he purchase the ammunition? The FBI was unable to track it down, even though there was limited retailers who sold the ammunition in the N.O. and Dallas area. Since he purchased the rifle and scope through mail order, why did he not purchase the hard to find ammo on the same order, as it was available through Klein's on the order form?

Has Marina ever mentioned seeing cleaning supplies or ammunition for the rifle she claimed her husband practiced dry firing?

Would Oswald take the time to dispose of the cleaning supplies and traces of ammuntion (extra bullets, box(es), etc.) when he left an easily traceable rifle at the scene of the crime? It was easily traceable as he supposedly carried his false ID at the time of his arrest, in the name of which it was purchased and shipped to the PO Box.

Comments?

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Al,

This has always struck me as strange, If one practices as much as the WC tried to make us believe Oswald did, then something would have turned up , empty ammo cartons, cleaning rods, bore patches, cleaning solvents, oil , etc.

Of all the years ive been shooting, I never seem to get rid of something after I clean up after a shoot, just last night I found my bushing wrench for my 1911 that I was looking for for 6 months lol, and a set of NM sights for one of my M1's . I had stored these in a box in the garage and for the life of me couldnt remember where I placed them.

IMHO Oswald was told to order that rifle, nothing more, nothing less. It reminds me of how the gangbangers work over here, telling the little guy to "hold" this until I need it. As they dont want anything linking them to the gun while not in use.

It just makes no sense if Oswald owned that rifle and shot it as much as the WC said he did, that there was not "extras" found........Makes no sense.

And his revolver goes right along with this.......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ryan,

You may have a point about the rifle. I don't think there's any question in my mind LHO ordered it and had it in his possession. It gets pretty foggy after that. For someone that's been around guns, a cleaning kit is an essential. For someone who's not, who knows? Know of any of those gangbangers who sit around the kitchen table smokin crack cleaning their pistol after going to Wal Mart to buy a cleaning kit?

Al,

One thing I forgot to ask in my answer to your post...

Since you been involved in many criminal investigations, how often have you gone to a crime scene at a house where gunplay was involved, and not found a cleaning kit or a box of ammo?

RJS

[Ryan Crowe]

Some time back, I posted on another forum, the issue of missing ammunition and cleaning supplies for the Oswald rifle. I don't know if it has been touched on here, but feel it needs to be pointed out to those who support Oswald as a shooting in DP.

The official findings found that Oswald was proficient with this rifle and had not only practiced with it but also fired at General Walker using it. If this is the case, then where is the cleaning supplies, such as rods, bore brushes, bore jags, solvents, oils, patches, etc., that he used to maintain the weapon and have it in the condition as it was found.

The ammunition was packaged in boxes of 20. He supposedly fired one round at Walker, three at JFK and one live round was found in the chamber. That totals five with fifteen outstanding. Did he practice with fifteen and simply come to DP with four rounds remaining from the box?

Where did he purchase the ammunition? The FBI was unable to track it down, even though there was limited retailers who sold the ammunition in the N.O. and Dallas area. Since he purchased the rifle and scope through mail order, why did he not purchase the hard to find ammo on the same order, as it was available through Klein's on the order form?

Has Marina ever mentioned seeing cleaning supplies or ammunition for the rifle she claimed her husband practiced dry firing?

Would Oswald take the time to dispose of the cleaning supplies and traces of ammuntion (extra bullets, box(es), etc.) when he left an easily traceable rifle at the scene of the crime? It was easily traceable as he supposedly carried his false ID at the time of his arrest, in the name of which it was purchased and shipped to the PO Box.

Comments?

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Al,

This has always struck me as strange, If one practices as much as the WC tried to make us believe Oswald did, then something would have turned up , empty ammo cartons, cleaning rods, bore patches, cleaning solvents, oil , etc.

Of all the years ive been shooting, I never seem to get rid of something after I clean up after a shoot, just last night I found my bushing wrench for my 1911 that I was looking for for 6 months lol, and a set of NM sights for one of my M1's . I had stored these in a box in the garage and for the life of me couldnt remember where I placed them.

IMHO Oswald was told to order that rifle, nothing more, nothing less. It reminds me of how the gangbangers work over here, telling the little guy to "hold" this until I need it. As they dont want anything linking them to the gun while not in use.

It just makes no sense if Oswald owned that rifle and shot it as much as the WC said he did, that there was not "extras" found........Makes no sense.

And his revolver goes right along with this.......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ryan,

You may have a point about the rifle. I don't think there's any question in my mind LHO ordered it and had it in his possession. It gets pretty foggy after that. For someone that's been around guns, a cleaning kit is an essential. For someone who's not, who knows? Know of any of those gangbangers who sit around the kitchen table smokin crack cleaning their pistol after going to Wal Mart to buy a cleaning kit?

Al,

One thing I forgot to ask in my answer to your post...

Since you been involved in many criminal investigations, how often have you gone to a crime scene at a house where gunplay was involved, and not found a cleaning kit or a box of ammo?

RJS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Richard,

Exactly right, IMHO Oswad knows from being in the Corps that a rifle must be kept clean, but again no cleaning supplies.

LOL On the gangbangers, all they know is where the trigger is at, what I was talking about was Oswald hanging onto the gun, Having him order it and keeping it with him links him to it, while the real dirt bags use it when need be giving it back to Oswald for "safe keeping" if you know what I mean.

LOL Gangbangers and cleaning supplies for firearms go together as well as they do with classical music.

[Ron Ecker]

Has Marina ever mentioned seeing cleaning supplies or ammunition for the rifle she claimed her husband practiced dry firing?

From an FBI report on interviews of Marina Oswald in December 1963 (FBI File # 100-10,461, Commission Exhibit 1403):

“MARINA did not see OSWALD either take the rifle with him from the house in New Orleans or bring it back with him to the house on any occasion. She never saw him clean it, nor did he ever hold it in her presence as best she can recall.

“She cannot recall that he ever practiced firing the rifle in New Orleans or in Dallas. She does not think he did practice in New Orleans because as a rule he stayed home when he was not working. When he did go out, she did not see him take the rifle.

“OSWALD did not have any ammunition for the rifle to her knowledge either in Dallas or New Orleans, and he did not speak of buying ammunition.”

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol22_0404b.htm

Now see her WC testimony on February 3, 1964:

Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall your husband having any ammunition around the house at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And where do you remember his having it in the places you lived?

Mrs. OSWALD. On Neely Street, in Dallas, and New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether that was rifle ammunition or rifle and pistol ammunition?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was for the rifle. Perhaps he had some pistol ammunition there, but I would not know the difference.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe how much ammunition he had at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had a box of about the size of this.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little description of how you indicated the box? Was it 2 or 3 inches wide?

Mrs. OSWALD. About the size here on the pad.

Mr. RANKIN. About 3 inches wide and 6 inches long?

Mrs. OSWALD. Probably.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

Ron

[Al Carrier]

Al

My vintage rifle of the same era has the cleaning rod stored under the barrel.  Does the rifle found in the TSBD building have the same configuration?

The one remaining bullet "was necessary" to match the neutron activation analysis of the recovered bullet fragments from the Kennedy and Connally shooting with the Walker bullet.  That test was done in 1977 by the HSCA.

Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jim,

I own the same model MC Rifle as the Oswald rifle and it does not have an under barrel rod storage.

You are exactly right about the additional round left in the chamber. How convenient for future NAA testing.

Al

[Al Carrier]

Some time back, I posted on another forum, the issue of missing ammunition and cleaning supplies for the Oswald rifle. I don't know if it has been touched on here, but feel it needs to be pointed out to those who support Oswald as a shooting in DP.

The official findings found that Oswald was proficient with this rifle and had not only practiced with it but also fired at General Walker using it. If this is the case, then where is the cleaning supplies, such as rods, bore brushes, bore jags, solvents, oils, patches, etc., that he used to maintain the weapon and have it in the condition as it was found.

The ammunition was packaged in boxes of 20. He supposedly fired one round at Walker, three at JFK and one live round was found in the chamber. That totals five with fifteen outstanding. Did he practice with fifteen and simply come to DP with four rounds remaining from the box?

Where did he purchase the ammunition? The FBI was unable to track it down, even though there was limited retailers who sold the ammunition in the N.O. and Dallas area. Since he purchased the rifle and scope through mail order, why did he not purchase the hard to find ammo on the same order, as it was available through Klein's on the order form?

Has Marina ever mentioned seeing cleaning supplies or ammunition for the rifle she claimed her husband practiced dry firing?

Would Oswald take the time to dispose of the cleaning supplies and traces of ammuntion (extra bullets, box(es), etc.) when he left an easily traceable rifle at the scene of the crime? It was easily traceable as he supposedly carried his false ID at the time of his arrest, in the name of which it was purchased and shipped to the PO Box.

Comments?

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Al,

This has always struck me as strange, If one practices as much as the WC tried to make us believe Oswald did, then something would have turned up , empty ammo cartons, cleaning rods, bore patches, cleaning solvents, oil , etc.

Of all the years ive been shooting, I never seem to get rid of something after I clean up after a shoot, just last night I found my bushing wrench for my 1911 that I was looking for for 6 months lol, and a set of NM sights for one of my M1's . I had stored these in a box in the garage and for the life of me couldnt remember where I placed them.

IMHO Oswald was told to order that rifle, nothing more, nothing less. It reminds me of how the gangbangers work over here, telling the little guy to "hold" this until I need it. As they dont want anything linking them to the gun while not in use.

It just makes no sense if Oswald owned that rifle and shot it as much as the WC said he did, that there was not "extras" found........Makes no sense.

And his revolver goes right along with this.......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ryan,

You may have a point about the rifle. I don't think there's any question in my mind LHO ordered it and had it in his possession. It gets pretty foggy after that. For someone that's been around guns, a cleaning kit is an essential. For someone who's not, who knows? Know of any of those gangbangers who sit around the kitchen table smokin crack cleaning their pistol after going to Wal Mart to buy a cleaning kit?

Al,

One thing I forgot to ask in my answer to your post...

Since you been involved in many criminal investigations, how often have you gone to a crime scene at a house where gunplay was involved, and not found a cleaning kit or a box of ammo?

RJS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Richard,

We see all levels of nonweapon persons involved in gunplay. I once raided a crack house and luckily took them by surprise on a no-knock search warrant and found a sawed off shotgun leaned against the wall just inside the front door. The low lifes loaded it with birdshot! Shows their knowlege of weapons and ballistics LOL. I have also seen cases where a search of the perps premises gave evidence directly linking them to the weapon and crime by the ammunition found. One extreme case was when two gang bangers held up a gas station and we took them down several blocks away. Their Tech22 and .22 smith revolver were found a hundred or so feet from where we took them down. All thirty bullets in the Tecg22 mag and the eight in the revolver cylinder were filed down at the tip. We did a search of one of the perps residences and found a half full box of ammo of the same brand, also with the tips filed down. It finally dawned on me why they took the time to file them down. The bullets were .22 long rifle and the revolver fired .22 shorts. The long rifle bullets had to be filed down for the cylinder to close in the revolver. They took the time to file all the bullets down. Talk about a slam dunk in trial to tie them to the guns and the crime.

The big difference here, as Ryan has pointed out is that Oswald did have a military background that gave him basic knowlege of weapons and the importance of cleaning them to maintain their performance. He was dealing with a rifle he had mounted with a scope for a precision shot (as precise as one could get with that rifle and scope) and a fouled or pitted barrel would have considerable effect on the accuracy. And this rifle was found to be well maintained by the FBI lab.

Failure to track the purchase of the ammunition is inexcusable in a case such as this with the resources the feds had. It tells me he did not purchase any ammo. Anyone with any common sense about weaponry would know that this was a weapon that was not found at every gunshop you would walk into and the ammo would be as rare. So why didn't he purchase the ammo along with the rifle through Klines, if he intended to use it?

Al

Edited December 12, 2004 by Al Carrier

[Al Carrier]

Has Marina ever mentioned seeing cleaning supplies or ammunition for the rifle she claimed her husband practiced dry firing?

From an FBI report on interviews of Marina Oswald in December 1963 (FBI File # 100-10,461, Commission Exhibit 1403):

“MARINA did not see OSWALD either take the rifle with him from the house in New Orleans or bring it back with him to the house on any occasion. She never saw him clean it, nor did he ever hold it in her presence as best she can recall.

“She cannot recall that he ever practiced firing the rifle in New Orleans or in Dallas. She does not think he did practice in New Orleans because as a rule he stayed home when he was not working. When he did go out, she did not see him take the rifle.

“OSWALD did not have any ammunition for the rifle to her knowledge either in Dallas or New Orleans, and he did not speak of buying ammunition.”

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol22_0404b.htm

Now see her WC testimony on February 3, 1964:

Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall your husband having any ammunition around the house at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And where do you remember his having it in the places you lived?

Mrs. OSWALD. On Neely Street, in Dallas, and New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether that was rifle ammunition or rifle and pistol ammunition?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was for the rifle. Perhaps he had some pistol ammunition there, but I would not know the difference.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe how much ammunition he had at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had a box of about the size of this.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little description of how you indicated the box? Was it 2 or 3 inches wide?

Mrs. OSWALD. About the size here on the pad.

Mr. RANKIN. About 3 inches wide and 6 inches long?

Mrs. OSWALD. Probably.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for posting this Ron. This never made any sense to me either, other than to prove her testimony was coerced.

Al

[Tim Gratz]

Al

My vintage rifle of the same era has the cleaning rod stored under the barrel.  Does the rifle found in the TSBD building have the same configuration?

The one remaining bullet "was necessary" to match the neutron activation analysis of the recovered bullet fragments from the Kennedy and Connally shooting with the Walker bullet.  That test was done in 1977 by the HSCA.

Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jim,

I own the same model MC Rifle as the Oswald rifle and it does not have an under barrel rod storage.

You are exactly right about the additional round left in the chamber. How convenient for future NAA testing.

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very interesting thread. Al, do you have any comments on the paraffin test made on Oswald's face and hands?

[Al Carrier]

Al

My vintage rifle of the same era has the cleaning rod stored under the barrel.  Does the rifle found in the TSBD building have the same configuration?

The one remaining bullet "was necessary" to match the neutron activation analysis of the recovered bullet fragments from the Kennedy and Connally shooting with the Walker bullet.  That test was done in 1977 by the HSCA.

Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jim,

I own the same model MC Rifle as the Oswald rifle and it does not have an under barrel rod storage.

You are exactly right about the additional round left in the chamber. How convenient for future NAA testing.

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very interesting thread. Al, do you have any comments on the paraffin test made on Oswald's face and hands?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim,

Parrafin tests are unreliable as there are many, many items that one can handle that will result in a false positive. That is why most agencies do not even conduct these tests anymore. The courts have not challenged them due to false negatives, as this has not been the case. With Oswald, his duties at the TSBD was to fill book orders. He handled order forms that contained carbon paper, which would give a false positive testing to the paraffin tests.

As you know, his hands tested positive and his face tested negative. There is no way to fire a rifle such as the MC and not test positive on the face. The arguement to this has been that he simply washed his face after the shooting of JFK and not his hands after Tippitt. If this is the case, when did he do it? He didn't have time in the TSBD. Roberts did not advise of it at the rooming house. If he did it at the DPD after his arrest, did he use his feet to wash his face?

I have always looked at this by trying to build a prosecution against LHO. Everything presented as a prosecution case would be open for challenge by the defense. This is simply one of many that would be successfully challenged and make LHO a free man.

Al

Edited December 12, 2004 by Al Carrier

[Tim Gratz]

Al

My vintage rifle of the same era has the cleaning rod stored under the barrel.  Does the rifle found in the TSBD building have the same configuration?

The one remaining bullet "was necessary" to match the neutron activation analysis of the recovered bullet fragments from the Kennedy and Connally shooting with the Walker bullet.  That test was done in 1977 by the HSCA.

Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jim,

I own the same model MC Rifle as the Oswald rifle and it does not have an under barrel rod storage.

You are exactly right about the additional round left in the chamber. How convenient for future NAA testing.

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very interesting thread. Al, do you have any comments on the paraffin test made on Oswald's face and hands?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim,

Parrafin tests are unreliable as there are many, many items that one can handle that will result in a false positive. That is why most agencies do not even conduct these tests anymore. The courts have not challenged them due to false negatives, as this has not been the case. With Oswald, his duties at the TSBD was to fill book orders. He handled order forms that contained carbon paper, which would give a false positive testing to the paraffin tests.

As you know, his hands tested positive and his face tested negative. There is no way to fire a rifle such as the MC and not test positive on the face. The arguement to this has been that he simply washed his face after the shooting of JFK and not his hands after Tippitt. If this is the case, when did he do it? He didn't have time in the TSBD. Roberts did not advise of it at the rooming house. If he did it at the DPD after his arrest, did he use his feet to wash his face?

I have always looked at this by trying to build a prosecution against LHO. Everything presented as a prosecution case would be open for challenge by the defense. This is simply one of many that would be successfully challenged and make LHO a free man.

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very instructive comments. Just a few follow-up questions.

1) Is it easy to wash off paraffin?

2) How clear is it it that firing a rifle will ALWAYS leave paraffin on the face

that will show up on a test? Is this beyond debate? Or at least very clear.

Since by Mrs. Roberts' testimony (and even the timing) it seems clear that LHO did not take time in his rooming house to wash up, in your opinion is the negative paraffin test on LHO's face a very convincing proof that LHO did not fire a rifle on Nov 22, 1963?

3) How often are there "false positive" paraffin tests? Does the positive paraffin test on LHO's hands indicate (for instance by the civil standard of the "greater weight of the evidence" even if not by the criminal standard) that LHO fired a pistol?

If this is the case, it would tend to support a scenario that LHO was a patsy but did shoot Tippit in attempting to get away. I could see an innocent man knowing he was the object of a sophisticated frame being willing to shoot a police officer to escape. In other words, even if LHO did shoot Tippit, he could still be innocent of killing Kennedy (and by the paraffin test, was). Do you believe that paraffin tests are SO inconclusive that the poisitive paraffin test on LHO's hands should be totally discounted?

Thanks again for your help! It seems the negative paraffin test on LHO's face is at a minimum very strong evidence that he did not fire a rifle on that fateful Friday.

Edited December 12, 2004 by Tim Gratz

[Al Carrier]

Al

My vintage rifle of the same era has the cleaning rod stored under the barrel.  Does the rifle found in the TSBD building have the same configuration?

The one remaining bullet "was necessary" to match the neutron activation analysis of the recovered bullet fragments from the Kennedy and Connally shooting with the Walker bullet.  That test was done in 1977 by the HSCA.

Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jim,

I own the same model MC Rifle as the Oswald rifle and it does not have an under barrel rod storage.

You are exactly right about the additional round left in the chamber. How convenient for future NAA testing.

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very interesting thread. Al, do you have any comments on the paraffin test made on Oswald's face and hands?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim,

Parrafin tests are unreliable as there are many, many items that one can handle that will result in a false positive. That is why most agencies do not even conduct these tests anymore. The courts have not challenged them due to false negatives, as this has not been the case. With Oswald, his duties at the TSBD was to fill book orders. He handled order forms that contained carbon paper, which would give a false positive testing to the paraffin tests.

As you know, his hands tested positive and his face tested negative. There is no way to fire a rifle such as the MC and not test positive on the face. The arguement to this has been that he simply washed his face after the shooting of JFK and not his hands after Tippitt. If this is the case, when did he do it? He didn't have time in the TSBD. Roberts did not advise of it at the rooming house. If he did it at the DPD after his arrest, did he use his feet to wash his face?

I have always looked at this by trying to build a prosecution against LHO. Everything presented as a prosecution case would be open for challenge by the defense. This is simply one of many that would be successfully challenged and make LHO a free man.

Al

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Very instructive comments. Just a few follow-up questions.

1) Is it easy to wash off paraffin?

2) How clear is it it that firing a rifle will ALWAYS leave paraffin on the face

that will show up on a test? Is this beyond debate? Or at least very clear.

Since by Mrs. Roberts' testimony (and even the timing) it seems clear that LHO did not take time in his rooming house to wash up, in your opinion is the negative paraffin test on LHO's face a very convincing proof that LHO did not fire a rifle on Nov 22, 1963?

3) How often are there "false positive" paraffin tests? Does the positive paraffin test on LHO's hands indicate (for instance by the civil standard of the "greater weight of the evidence" even if not by the criminal standard) that LHO fired a pistol?

If this is the case, it would tend to support a scenario that LHO was a patsy but did shoot Tippit in attempting to get away. I could see an innocent man knowing he was the object of a sophisticated frame being willing to shooy a police officer to escape. In other words, even if LHO did shoot Tippit, he could still be innocent of killing Tippit. The paraffin tests might suggest this scenario. Or do you believe that paraffin tests are SO inconclusive that the poisitive paraffin test on LHO's hands should be totally discounted?

Thanks again for your help! It seems the negative paraffin test on LHO's face is at a minimum very strong evidence that he did not fire a rifle on that fateful Friday.

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Tim,

1 - Generally, the nitrates deposited that are picked up by the paraffin tests are embedded into to the pores of the skin, but can be compromised in nature by simple washing with water if it is rubbed into the surface. I had one individual who was locked down in a cell and the water turned off, who had apparently overheard what we were planning, deposit a bowel movement into his hands and rub it into all exposed skin surfaces. Obviously, we did not do the paraffin samples on him.

2 - Even closed bolt rifles will emenate the nitrates onto the skin of the face due to their proximety to the release of the nitrate carrying gases. Although they are less in volume than a autoloading bolt, the closed bolt still has to release the pressure back or it will lock up the action. Additional nitrates are released back after the bolt is opened and another round chamber in the case of multiple shots fired.

3 - False positive case law is what has made paraffin testing cease to be court acceptable in most jurisdictions. In the case of Oswald, by showing he handled material such as carbon paper, that would be sufficient to challenge the reliability of the paraffin test to show he fired a firearm. I believe a sophisticated challenge, especially with what we know today about the reliability of the paraffin tests, would throw out this as evidence that he fired any firearm.

Al