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Douglas Caddy

Eyewitness captures Polaroid of moment JFK was shot

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Frame from the video shows the absurdity of getting the magic bullet, which allegedly hit JFK in the neck and exited through his tie knot, to hit Connally in the shoulder.

JFK-in-limo.png

 

 

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Ray, if that black, bullet trajectory angle line in the picture you posted is scientifically proven to be the correct angle line from the TXSBD's  most south-western 6th floor window shooting perch and was taken no more than one, two or even three seconds before the actual back hit shot ( so as to eliminate an explanation of a less steep angle due to a farther distance "flattening out" of the angle )  then it is completely logical to conclude that the "magic bullet" scenario as described and promoted by Arlen Specter and the WC is impossibly wrong.

A simple look at that 6th floor bullet trajectory line in your photo shows it would be impossible for a bullet to have entered JFK  in the upper/slightly right of mid-spine location as shown in the autopsy photos and then gone almost straight horizontally through the Adam's Apple area of JFK's throat and then angling farther downward and slightly right into Connally's mid-upper right back.

Guess a major factor of angle determination from this photo is exactly how soon it was taken before that shot.

Edited by Joe Bauer

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Joe, It's the first photo I've seen, which shows the two men in tandem. I just drew the line from the alleged back wound, as the W.C. said in the neck,  through the tie knot. I haven't tried to show the angle from the TSBD. It doesn't look like the angle matches. Maybe some whiz kid can print  out the angle,  and show the line through the two men.

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If I get what you are saying the back wound goes into the neck and comes out at the tie knot of JFK and then travels to Gov. Connally at an angle which is steep and indicates shooting from a high position.  I don't see that with your photo.  Instead I see this.

jfk-firing-angle.jpg

Connally's chest wound exited just below his right nipple.  Connect that to JFK's tie not and you have this.  A much shallower angle than you postulated.

I would be more apt to believe that the shot if it came from the 6th floor would be from the western side of the building which is covered by a giant non-existent tree in Moorman 3 the McBride photo.  5 out of 7 of the closest witnesses to the 6th floor sniper's nest on the east side of the building said they heard shooting coming from another place and not from above them.

The red line angle might suggest a 2nd or 3rd floor office window at the TSBD if the shot came from the TSBD at all.

Edited by John Butler

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John, the line you added ( in red ) definitely shows a "much lower" bullet trajectory angle than the black one inserted by Ray.

Again, depending on what distance from the Texas School Book building the limo is at the time of the photo, one should be able to make a clear trajectory line to the 6th floor perch.

If the photo was taken just before the back shot ( second or seconds before ) Your red line angle would never line up high and steep enough to the 6th floor window.

It sure looks like a clearly lower elevation angle shot.   Perhaps one from the Dal-Tex building?

Certain windows and floors in the Dal-Tex building did have a straight ahead shot view of JFK at the time of the JFK and John Connally back shots.

Edited by Joe Bauer

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9 hours ago, John Butler said:

 

jfk-firing-angle.jpg

 

  5 out of 7 of the closest witnesses to the 6th floor sniper's nest on the east side of the building said they heard shooting coming from another place and not from above them.

 

Thanks for this photo, Doug, and the blow-up, John.  And the discussion, John, Ray, and Joe.

 

There is something so obvious about the faces of the four passengers.  Three are smiling, beaming.  Those three's eyebrows are lifted in happiness, serenity.  The fourth is not like that.  His mouth is tight in a very dour scowl.  His eyebrows are trying to cover his eyes, they're so low and tight.  As in many photos since the party arrived at Love Field, it is obvious that John B. Connally did not know whether to cry, scream, or soil his drawers.  Though he is hosting the president of his country and the leader of his party, that is not a happy man, far from it.  He knew what might be about to happen.

 

It's a little painful to see you guys struggling with shot angles.  You're talking about vertical angles, degrees off the horizontal, up and down.  But it is the lateral angles, side to side, of Connally's wounds that are nothing like the wounds on JFK.  The first shot hit JBC IN his back nearly at the armpit and went OUT his chest left and under the right nug (Canadian for nipple).  That's close to a 45 degree angle, traversing about as much right to left as the thickness of the chest.  THAT shot definitely came from the western end of the south face of TSBD.  For that shot to have gone through Kennedy first, JFK would have had to have been floating outside the limo's right side, and above the cycle police.

I tell you, it was that noble, brave, tough cookie Lee Harvey Oswald.  He had infiltrated the plot on JFK for months, he had stopped the plot at least once (probably at least twice), and he saw that the rotten **************s were going to pull it off.   SOOOOOOOOOOOO -- he made the obvious plotters pay SOME thing.  Plus, he already had a list of grievances against Little Lyndon.

Edited by Roy Wieselquist
clarity

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Joe Bauer said:

"If the photo was taken just before the back shot ( second or seconds before ) Your red line angle would never line up high and steep enough to the 6th floor window.

It sure looks like a clearly lower elevation angle shot.   Perhaps one from the Dal-Tex building?"   Thanks Joe for the comment.

I agree about the Dal-Tex as a possibility.  Altgens 6 shows people in the windows of the 2nd or 3rd floors, if my memory doesn't fail me, and even stick like objects protruding from the windows.  Some even see a gun being fired.   And, of course others don't.  The earliest source I know of that postulated shooting from the Dal-Tex mentions stick like objects protruding from the windows is Harold Weisberg in Whitewash III of 1967.

Altgens-6-crop-objects-in-windows.jpg

When I first saw these I thought someone was monkeying around with Altgens 6.  But, this was what Harold Weisberg was talking about in 1967 in Whitewash III.

Ray might not have chosen the best photo to represent his ideas with.  John Connally was a large man and very tall.  Yet, he sits lower than JFK due to riding in the jump seat. Kennedy may have been riding taller and Connally may have been sitting lower in the jump seat in a vain effort to be comfortable.  At another time he may have sat taller seeking comfort in the jump seat which must have been very uncomfortable.

If that was the case it would throw off angle of fire lines somewhat.  But, that is unknowable.  Ray's photo is a great photo but, it must of been taken somewhere other than Main, Houston, or Elm Streets.  It was taken on the day of the assassination according to the way Jackie Kennedy was dressed.  Positions could have changed by the time the presidential vehicle arrived in the assassination area. 

Still it is a great photo and one I hadn't seen before.  Thanks Ray.  It appears to be a crop from a larger photo.  Maybe someone could post the larger photo if there is one. 

Edited by John Butler

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Somebody actually thinks there could have been bullet holes in the front of the Dal-Tex Building between the 2nd and 3rd floors??

Boy, those assassins must have been really lousy gunmen. Or maybe they were blindfolded and firing indiscriminately all over Dealey Plaza, not caring what they were aiming at. Or did the real killers, just like Lee Oswald, have an oak tree and a traffic light pole situated between their rifles and the President's body, which could possibly have deflected some of their shots, even though those shooter(s) would have been firing from west to east? And where in the world could any such assassin(s) have been located in order to possibly cause two bullet holes to pepper the front of the Dal-Tex?

This reminds me of the insane theory proposed by some conspiracy theorists (including Internet conspiracy fantasist Robert Caprio in this 2007 discussion) concerning two different bullets that allegedly were found in 1966 and 1967 on the roofs of various buildings located many blocks from Dealey Plaza. Now, I ask: if those two bullets on top of those buildings had been fired by assassins in Dealey Plaza, then what exactly were those killers aiming at---a bird up in the sky? Or did the assassins think President Kennedy was really located on the roof of a nearby building? ~a shrug and a chuckle~

James-Altgens-Photograph-Dealey-Plaza-No

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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I rarely pay attention to Von Pein's strange comments.  Advice:  Go back and read the post on Altgens 6 titled Altgens 6- A different view.

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According to Euins, his location and pointing out the limo location when the first shot was fired.

This is approx 5ft(JFK's position) prior to Z133.

It is between where the Towner film ends and Z begins.

44301977210_0724b8868e_o.jpg

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Ballistically speaking, it is 125ft (straight line) back to the County Records Building Corner from the limo location Euins refers to.

The CRB rooftop is 100ft high.

Adjusting for the elevation change down to Z133 and the 3.27ft bullet elevation location on JFK's back, the triangle would look like this:

It would be a nice alternative to the TSBD snipers nest.

46119451191_b1ba3b775d_o.png

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10 hours ago, John Butler said:

Go back and read the post on Altgens 6 titled Altgens 6- A different view.

Does that post/(thread) talk about why any assassin would be aiming at the 2nd or 3rd floor of the Dal-Tex when his target was situated in a car in the middle of Elm Street? *

* And the alleged "bullet holes" are seen in the Dal-Tex facade several seconds before the head shot even occurs, so the CTers can't possibly utilize any kind of "The bullets deflected wildly after striking JFK's skull" excuse either. So, good luck.

Edited by David Von Pein

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More musings.

I posted earlier on what appeared to bullet holes in the Dal-Tex building in the Altgens 6 photo.  I will try to reconstruct what I said there and other posts.

1.  My version of Altgens 6 came from the internet.  At first, I thought someone was monkeying around with the photo and as far as I knew it was a sign of alteration.

2.  They looked like 50 caliber machine gun holes.  That was a no go for the assassination.  The plaza was probably full of WWII and Korean vets I would think.  And, no one heard such a large caliber weapon.  There would be no way to suppress it.  The holes were too big for rifle or pistol.

3.  So, I was left with other speculations.  Maybe Tosh Plumlee's abort team shooting at the assassins.  I didn't care much for that one either.

4.  If they were bullet holes then maybe a bunch of drunk Texans shot up the plaza late at night.

5.  I didn't think much of weapons sticking out of various upper floor windows.  Or, of menacing figures barely seen in some windows.  Here again I thought someone was playing with the photo until I read Harold Weisberg's Whitewash III.  He mentions similar things sticking out of windows in 1967.

 

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