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Rich Pope

Number of shots

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14 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

  If you have SWHT/2010 check page 322-321 for what Werbell was actually doing circa 1962-1966 and you might be surprised - I certainly was when I located the CIA documents on his activities .

Larry Hancock,

What was Mitch WerBell actually doing circa 1962-1966?  Inquiring minds want to know.

There are a few big missing pieces that are right up MW's alley.  Two big ones:

1. Who made the car bomb that was parked along Stemmons not far from Dealey, and how did they get the materiel?  Funny thing, a storage igloo outside San Antonio went boom nine days before JFK reached Dallas.  They were moving explosives around when the accident happened.  Maybe some went missing while they were playing musical ordnance.

2. Who provided that special rifle for the French Corsicans on the South Knoll?  It had to be small bore, not over 25 caliber and with a big charge for a 25.  So it would be supersonic, at least 3000 fps, maybe 3600, without making a big boom since it had to be suppressed.  And it had to have one hell of a telescopic sight.  With a good silencer and a small bullet, it would sound like clapping two small boards.  And that's way up near the railroad tracks, away from the crowds.

Edited by Roy Wieselquist
math; 11/22 minus 11/13 = nine days

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Werbell was given provisional approval as a CIA field agent in 1959, based on his claims that he knew influential Cuban exiles because he had helped broker financial transactions for them in Miami.  To make a long story short, that approval lasted only two months until the CIA determined that he merely wanted to use CIA expense money to fund his own personal travel and business networking - in the area of public relations. He was described as a promoter, in business difficulties and with no legitimate or worthwhile exile sources. At that point he was advised he would not be used operationally by the CIA. 

By 1962 he was working for an international fruit distribution company in Latin America, attempting to sell surplus WWII arms in Guatemala and promoting the intelligence collection capability of his essentially non-existent World Wide Information Services. 

CIA cables circa 62/63 discuss the fact that he had become a pain for the Agency, representing himself as the spokesman for Mario Kohly and various Cuban exile groups (the actual relationships to any such groups were questionable at best), offering bribes to agents of foreign governments,  suggesting/implying non-existent US government connections and advocating polices not consistent with those of the US.  A CIA memo describes him as a "wheeler dealer, unscrupulous and peddling grandiose schemes."

There is more in that same vein through 65/66....for details and citations you will need to go to the pages in Someone Would Have Talked that I referenced in the previous post.

 

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Thanks so much for that, LH.

SO -- in a financial and armaments way, MW was in with influential ex-Cubans as early as 1959.  Wait a minute, wasn't there some group of recent visitors to our shores who really hated JFK, later blamed him for THEIR abject, ignominious failure at the Bay of Pigs?  Oh yeah, it was the Miami Cubans!

AND CIA quickly found out MW was a self-aggrandizing fellow with their money.

THEN in 1962 MW's in Guatemala with a fruit company and selling surplus American arms.  Hey, didn't certain fruit companies, with an assist from Allen Dulles and the banking boys, really push for coups against Latin leaders who wouldn't play ball to their standards?  I think one of them was in Guatemala against a fellow named Arbenz who was for the people.

What would that not-see MW with the Nazi last name NOT be capable of?  It's obvious that WerBell was that type of true American who would walk into a delivery room right after the birth, and before the cord was cut, shoot the baby's brains out while the mother watched, then murder the mother as slowly and painfully as possible -- if he could make one filthy dollar off it.  And probably enjoy it too.  "Daddy likes his 'work'".

 

If this is just one little piece of your book, I must get Someone Would Have Talked.  Though this is a little eerie, I can't get McBride's Into the Nightmare through the best inter-library loan service in the USA.  But I will surely try to get SWHT.  Thanks for all you do.

Edited by Roy Wieselquist

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I've been in Dealy Plaza on several occasions and suspect very few there were actually expecting gun fire. Though some folks across the country were watching their clocks.

We were with another city's SWAT Team when their team leader produced a suppressed MP5 and told us it was perfect for taking out the watch dogs at a drug house. He then fired, hit the dog in the butt and it howled until the vet sedated it and patched it up.. We were really impressed.

Some one, perhaps Lapua. loads subsonic .308. Actually Sam Cummings of Interarmco had warehouses full of all sorts of weapons he picked up for pennies at the end of WW II CIA was one of his most regular customers.

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Couldn't they also explain the "firecracker" sounds that many witnesses referred to?

 

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could have been firecrackers thrown by a random idiot or by a conspirator. Remember Greer reported a flurry of shots that hit the car he was promptly ignored.

 

FYI, just noticed that Federal is offering a subsonic load in .45 ACP>

Edited by Evan Marshall

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3 hours ago, Evan Marshall said:

could have been firecrackers thrown by a random idiot or by a conspirator. Remember Greer reported a flurry of shots that hit the car he was promptly ignored.

 

FYI, just noticed that Federal is offering a subsonic load in .45 ACP>

Correction: It was Roy Kellerman, riding shotgun, who said, "Then a flurry of shells come [sic] into the car."  That was at the end of Greer braking the limo, before Clint Hill made his late appearance.

There were all kinds of noises, but there is not one report of firecrackers after the fact.  Some folks at the time thought the first and early shots were firecrackers, but that's because they weren't prepared for the plotters blowing the president's head apart and shooting JBC two good times.  And hitting the windshield chrome, rear view mirror, and the windshield itself; and the streets and the grass in Dealey at least three times, maybe five times.

There were all kinds of firearm-related noises.  Right now I'm most interested in those supersonic cracks that only the folks near the bullets' paths would have heard, because they came from supresssed rifles.  Evan, are you familiar with the principle of sonic crack?  When a missile breaks the sound barrier?

Or maybe, Evan, 'God' told you about these firecrackers.  Did he come to you as a burning bush, a la Isaiah's experience?

Edited by Roy Wieselquist
for clarity

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Thanks for the correction as at 76 my memory is not as solid as when I  was 75 AND I don't see why my faith in God should be relevant to the subject at hand.

I was the original training Sgt for the SWAT Team in Detroit and spent 5 1/2 years as a training specialist for The National Nuclear Security Administration's Office Of Secure Transportation training the feds who transport nukes and yes I'm aware the "Silencers" really don't silence anything.

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24 minutes ago, Evan Marshall said:

 AND I don't see why my faith in God should be relevant to the subject at hand.

 and yes I'm aware the "Silencers" really don't silence anything.

No one here is cracking on your "faith in God."  Don't know, don't much care.  But it is you who are fond of bringing up that mysterious (something like) "Most human truths are fiction to God."  To reply to someone bringing up a GOOD witness's corroboration (is there such a thing to you?) of physical evidence.  Does that possibility exist to you, or are you a total nihilist, believing nothing human is true, that God's creation is garbage.

RE "silencers" may not COMPLETELY silence anything, but they sure as hell do cut down on the noise.  AND it is a VERY DIFFERENT sound.  Or do you not even make that simple distinction?  It's all the same, right?  And we can never know ANYthing, right?

Edited by Roy Wieselquist
to correct Capitalization

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10 hours ago, Evan Marshall said:

What part of SWAT and Homicide don't you understand?

Evan, sweetie,

What does that have to do with anything?  The topic here is number of shots (in the JFK assassination); right at the top of the page if you forget.

Just guessing here -- what difference it makes that you say you were in swat and homicide.  Does that mean that no one else can weigh in on the number of shots, due to your superior authority?  Does that mean that if someone corrects you on a simple fact that you will bring up sniping from a very safe distance, and human-killing (homicide)?  With no relation to the topic.

That "What part of...don't you understand?"  That's military talk.  Are you ex-mil?  They (or you) think it is so clever to get in an underling's face, with no chance of reprisal, and lord it over him with something like, "What part of 'MOVE' don't you understand, maggot!?"  Are you that type of ex-mil who sees civilians as "dirtbags"?  I'm very familiar with the type.  I spent most of my working life in house construction, having a family, finished college a mere 22 years after I started, went into education.  I employed many veterans through the years, and worked with many more.  The ones who were good were some of the best; the ones who thought they were superior because they pranced around (marched) with a gun in their hands on MY dime were the worst, the most work-allergic dirtbags I ever met.  Turns out their calling civvies "dirtbags" is psych projection; they're talking about themselves.  They joined the Army or the Police to get OUT of work.

I'm crying Uncle on this back-and-forth between us.  I'd like to discuss the matter at hand.

If I see one more quasi-threat from you out the blue, I will complain to admin.

If I see one after that, I will seek legal advice about what constitutes a threat communicated over electronic device.

Edited by Roy Wieselquist

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To get back on topic. I believe very much in Robert Harris' ' Attack in Dealey Plaza' YT presentation in relation to the number of shots fired. No I do not agree necessarily with his storm drain theory or the mafia responsibility but.... his analysis of the shots is superb. So rather than explain that I'll try to add to it ....

 As mentioned in a previous post, the sound of sonic cracks is very significant, as we recently saw at Las Vegas, where video's filmed inside the concert sounded COMPLETELY different to those filmed outside ( out of the sonic cone), and we also cannot forget the sound of pavement strikes ( firecrackers). 

Kellerman's statement that later in the hit ' a flurry of shells entered the car' is easily reconcilable ... Kellerman may well have been the only person awake enough at the time to have been in the sonic path of the bullet that missed at frame 285, this shot was also very loud and so he would have heard two 'bangs'. He then would have had one loud shot hit JFK in the back of the head and fragment causing the damage to the chrome strip above the window, next to his head. Next he would have had a bullet fly next to his right ear which had a loud muzzle blast and a sonic path too. so within the space of 35 frames he would have heard 6 'bangs' . Very confusing. 

The ' firecracker' shots were heard by many people and may well coincide perfectly with the missing frames from all known videos and 'damage' to all known photos - the ones of the turn on to Elm. Something is DEFINITELY been hidden here and in my opinion it is not simply the slow and misjudged turn onto Elm. Robert Harris points out the way JFK retracts his open hand into a clenched fist incredibly quickly and apparently for no reason, and then straightens his body up from a heavy lean to the left, after the destroyed frames. These movements and destroyed frames coincide with the witness statement of early firecrackers. Harris perhaps doesn't go far enough though with his explanation....

 If you were a conspirator (CIA) and wanted to kill JFK in Dallas one thing is for sure is you would want to get it done. This means a series of assassins and a fall back plan. The turn on to Elm is the best opportunity to hit JFK in my opinion. He is moving very slowly , in a position that can be shot at from the 6th floor TSBD ( frame Oswald) and also there are lots of places to shoot from and not hit Jackie or Connally. This is important and is much ignored by researchers. You absolutely don't want to hit Jackie. You have to shoot from a position that misses her even if you are off target. back to the shots... harris suggests that there were two early shots that missed, I am inclined to say one, possibly two. These shots are not insignificant, they show that at least one weapon that day had a silencer. Harris goes on to show that the shot that hit JFK and JC behind the sign was also silent, as no one reacted to it, in fact Jackie still didn't know JFK was hit until just before the headshot. 

 

 so ....    IMHO....       1...................2.........3..........4..5......

 1- A shot, or possibly 2 that missed from a silenced weapon sounding like a firecracker as the bullet hit the pavement

 2- The shot that hit the men but no one reacted to. 

 3- the loud bang that startled everyone and caused Greer to hit the brake pedal ( probably accidentally, as a startle reaction)

 4- first headshot from nest or POSSIBLY daltex

 5- second head shot blowing skull out at the back. 

 Shots 1 and 2 are silenced

 Shots 1 and 3 miss. 

 The bullet that hit the infield man hole cover for me is not 100% conclusive and also has no importance ultimately since it missed, no one saw the shooter and there is no evidence of a snipers nest or the getaway of a sniper. In addition, a shot from here at the angle the trace line depicts would mean a shot from somewhere around Zapruda / Badgeman and another silenced weapon. Why use a silenced weapon that late in the game ? Most importantly though of course .... A miss ( or hit) from there would probably have hit Jackie and no way would a sniper be set up there, this also applies  of course to the Leafy-badge DPDtree- man / invisible magic man theory. 

 Thank you for reading that long post and apologies if we have to agree to disagree , I would be grateful for any of the more knowledgeable here to prove me wrong. 

 

Edited by Jake Hammond

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On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 8:29 PM, Geoff Heinricks said:

Welcome to the forum Geoff.  Thanks for the link.  Specifically David Josephs post and link in it.  I'd never heard of a De Lisle carbine.  Potentially a very useful weapon in the JFK assassination.  Especially if one considers any shots from a Mauser or Manlicher Carcano from the TSBD a distraction from other shooters in other locations.  Amazing weapon.  Thanks once again David J too.

 

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Threats? People can't disagree with you without it being considered a threat.

I find David Manticks discussion of how many shots is rather compelling and, of, course, push Oswald out of the arena.

Never been in the military though trained with a number folks from the black side of spec ops.

You were claiming I had no experience or knowledge of suppressed weapon. When I worked for Israel military Industries I fired a wide variety of suppressed weapons in Israel And at NNSA I fired a number of suppressed weapon in 5.56, 7.62, and .338 Lapua thought the Lapua suppressor was short lived and not very effective. 

Edited by Evan Marshall

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