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Rich Pope

Number of shots

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Hi.  I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving.  My question is...is there any agreement about how many shots were fired at JFK?

Rich

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Number of shots in Dealy Plaza? - JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum

Any agreement about how many shots?  Yeah, Michael Crane (who started the topic above), George Sawtelle and I agree there was at least nine shots fired in Dealey That Day.  But as for how many fired at JFK, there may have been only three of those, and they all hit him.  First shot in the throat out the back from the South Knoll.  Then later the second and third hit him in the head almost simultaneously 2) in over right ear out nowhere from the North Knoll; 1) in left temple out right occiput from South Knoll or Bill Greer if Kennedy's head was bent forward enough from Greer braking the car.

Three shots were fired at Connally; two hit 1) in back near armpit, out chest; 2) through right wrist (top first, radius), breaking into pieces, then into left thigh and chrome ashtray plate on back of front seat.  The third shot from the Wizard of Ozzie, perched in one of the sixth floor southWEST windows, hit the chrome strip around the windshield, breaking into pieces, then dented the back of the rearview mirror and cracked the windshield.

Before the extant Zapruder film picks up the limo on Elm Street, there was another shot probably fired at JFK that hit the pavement beside the limo and sent road debris into JFK's cheek (a la James Tague on the other end of Dealey, on Main at the TUP).  The morticians at Gawler's saw these cuts when formaldehyde leaked out them; they had been plugged with wax as was the left temple wound.  The Hughes and Towner films were burned up at that point when the limo was turning onto Elm.  Bob Harris has it that the shot originated from Dal Tex, third floor I believe.

There were at least two other shots that missed everyone, for a total of nine shots.  Many of these shots came from silenced rifles.  There is so much confusion when people equate "shots" with "heard shots".

"any agreement" -- that's funny.

 

In the topic above, George Sawtelle has an excellent analysis/comparison of the blurs in Z-film and the shot impulses on the dictabelt recording.  Which again don't account for the sound-suppressed rifles.

One of the last posts in M. Crane's topic (above), Evan Marshall trots out his nihilistic philosophy  "Most human truths are fiction to God" one more time again.  (So why try, right?)  And points out that eye and ear witnesses are of little value, his authoritative opinion from being a Detroit police detective, or something like that.  Yeah, Evan, one or two random witnesses can be way off.  Case in point, Helen Markham.  BUT when you have dozens of witnesses jibing with the physical evidence...it's called corroboration.

Edited by Roy Wieselquist
attempt at clarity

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Two separate tours in Homicide and assigned as the first training Sgt for the swat team gives me a point of view that may be wrong but is not one of a keyboard commando. From investigating a large number of homicides I found to my surprise that eye and ear witnesses are often unreliable.

 

Cooberation? Does that mean they confirm our personal view of what happened. I believe in a conspiracy and suspect Mitch Werbell might have supplied suppressors for some of the weapons. I still wonder why people can't disagree without being disagreeable. My conclusion it was a conspiracy came from reading 26 volumes twice.

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Werbell produced silencers are an interesting though as he went on to develop the only improvements in technology since WWII for Vietnam.

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/silencers-sniper-rifles-the-cia

HSCA sound experts analyzing the dictabelt said at least five shots, likely more.  Blakey told them he could only sell four.  But that still meant a Conspiracy, not a theory.

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If you check the actual chronology you find Werbell did not become involved with the silencer business years after 1963. It was not until 1967 that he managed to partner with the actual developer (Gordon Ingram ) and promote the distribution of the M-11 hand held, silenced machine gun.  If you have SWHT/2010 check page 322-321 for what Werbell was actually doing circa 1962-1966 and you might be surprised - I certainly was when I located the CIA documents on his activities .

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Larry H.

So are you saying silencers could not have been in use in Dealey Plaza on 11,22,1963?

Edited by Joe Bauer

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According to the NRA....

In 1902, the first successful, commercially available suppressor was invented by Hiram Percy Maxim. ... The Maxim Silencer, patented in 1909, was a tubular device attached to the barrel of a firearm which reduces noise and muzzle flash when fired.

 

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Not sure how anyone got "no silencers" out of my post - it was very specifically in regard to Mitch Werbell and his personal association with silenced machine guns/pistols.  Certainly silenced weapons could have been used in the plaza and very possibly were...on the other hand, as I've expressed previously, that would have been to conceal the actual location of certain shooters since my opinion is that the plan itself never included the concept of a single shooter firing all the shots.

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Mitch was an interesting fellow. i talked to a him a couple of times. There were silencers used during  WW 2, but the ones I saw where attached to Sten Guns. And they were best suited for assassinating some one in a bath tub.

I think the plan was to point out LHO's contact with the Russian Embassy in Mexico and scare people into the suppression mode

We had H&K MP5 sub machine guns at Detroit SWAT, but we passed on the suppressed version.

I wrote for Soldier Of fortune magazine for a number of years and Bob Brown , retired Green Beret and was the real deal with extensive spec ops experience and deep links to the intelligence community. Bob Brown introduced me to Mitch.

Edited by Evan Marshall

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There is no doubt Werbell got to know lots of folks (who and when is covered in some depth The Fish Is Red which contained an extensive interview with him as well commentary on his later day arms sales and developing nations training activities)....my post was just to provide a reality check on timelines and specifically on what he was and was not doing before 1967....the citations on the documents covering that are in the book.  I'll just leave it at that.

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1 hour ago, Evan Marshall said:

We had H&K MP5 sub machine guns at Detroit SWAT, but we passed on the suppressed version.

I have shot the suppressed 9mm MP5, at H&K US headquarters (then located in Sterling, VA), and although it is indeed quiet relative to a non-suppressed version, I strongly suspect that the ammo. we were using was of sub-sonic velocity.  A high-powered rifle, using high-velocity ammo. and a suppressor, would still make considerable noise.  If the above-referenced "Silencers, Sniper Rifles & the CIA" article is correct, however, one or more rifles equipped with suppressors would confuse listeners as to the sources of the reports.  ML

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