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Rich Pope

Number of shots

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Kellerman's "flurry' has always been a good piece of honest testimony, from a guy that was out of his depth...if not more...that day, but knew the tools of his trade. I'd say that a flurry - given the wounds, scrubbed misses and ricochets, and the fact there HAD to be success - had to be at least a dozen shots, theatrical 'heard' ones and suppressed ones.

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Posted (edited)

A much more reasonable explanation for Roy Kellerman's "flurry" testimony is....

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Kellerman+Flurry

My explanation is certainly far and away more reasonable and sensible than believing, as Geoff Heinricks does, that there were "at least a dozen shots" fired in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63.

Any theory that incorporates "at least a dozen shots" is just plain laughable.

Edited by David Von Pein

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9 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

A much more reasonable explanation for Roy Kellerman's "flurry" testimony is....

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Kellerman+Flurry

My explanation is certainly far and away more reasonable and sensible than believing, as Geoff Heinricks does, that there were "at least a dozen shots" fired in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63.

Any theory that incorporates "at least a dozen shots" is just plain laughable.

Let me ask this...were the shots that hit Connally meant for JFK?  

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Why engage in that way, Rick?  Senseless, but, I guess, polite.

My father at least had interview time with Kellerman on tape, and that probably gives me at least as much authority as DVP in interpreting what a JFK Dealey 'flurry' might be.

However, if, David wishes to give a definition of what a McFlurry is, I won't contest it, having never had one.

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21 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

Let me ask this...were the shots that hit Connally meant for JFK?  

I've always felt that the shots that hit Gov Connally were a mistake.  If he was meant to be hit, he would've been hit for good.  Just my opinion, though.

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2 minutes ago, Robert Card said:

I've always felt that the shots that hit Gov Connally were a mistake.  If he was meant to be hit, he would've been hit for good.  Just my opinion, though.

 

2 minutes ago, Robert Card said:

I've always felt that the shots that hit Gov Connally were a mistake.  If he was meant to be hit, he would've been hit for good.  Just my opinion, though.

 

2 minutes ago, Robert Card said:

I've always felt that the shots that hit Gov Connally were a mistake.  If he was meant to be hit, he would've been hit for good.  Just my opinion, though.

Robert,

That makes sense to me.  Telephone conversations between LBJ and Hoover showed LBJ was scared someone had shot at him, too.  Hoover had to reassure LBJ that none of the shots were meant for him.  Which is kind of odd because LBJ ducked-down prior to ANY shots being fired, which means he KNEW about the assassination.  

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

Let me ask this...were the shots that hit Connally meant for JFK?  

Only one shot hit Connally, and that shot hit JFK first (of course).

So the answer to your inquiry is, of course....Yes.

Edited by David Von Pein

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6 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

 

 

Robert,

That makes sense to me.  Telephone conversations between LBJ and Hoover showed LBJ was scared someone had shot at him, too.  Hoover had to reassure LBJ that none of the shots were meant for him.  Which is kind of odd because LBJ ducked-down prior to ANY shots being fired, which means he KNEW about the assassination.  

I'll keep looking for a link for you, but his Secret Service protection said he was so scared, they had to push LBJ into the car.  I'll see if I can find who said that.

I'm not sure of this, but didn't LBJ and Hoover live next door to each other?  They supposedly had many dinners together before the assassination.   I'll look for this link as well.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Geoff Heinricks said:

My father at least had interview time with Kellerman on tape, and that probably gives me at least as much authority as DVP in interpreting what a JFK Dealey 'flurry' might be.

Did Kellerman tell your dad that he heard more than 3 shots? If so, that would be quite a switch from what he told the WC....

ARLEN SPECTER -- "Do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots?"

ROY H. KELLERMAN -- "No, I don't. I will have to say no."

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

LBJ ducked-down prior to ANY shots being fired...

That's yet another myth that CTers never get tired of repeating.

Edited by David Von Pein

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On 12/10/2018 at 9:45 PM, Roy Wieselquist said:

2. Who provided that special rifle for the French Corsicans on the South Knoll?  It had to be small bore, not over 25 caliber and with a big charge for a 25.  So it would be supersonic, at least 3000 fps, maybe 3600, without making a big boom since it had to be suppressed.  And it had to have one hell of a telescopic sight.  With a good silencer and a small bullet, it would sound like clapping two small boards.  And that's way up near the railroad tracks, away from the crowds.

It appears you are presenting "French Corsicans on the South Knoll" and a "special rifle" as established facts. Is that your intention?

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6 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Did Kellerman tell your dad that he heard more than 3 shots? If so, that would be quite a switch from what he told the WC....

ARLEN SPECTER -- "Do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots?"

ROY H. KELLERMAN -- "No, I don't. I will have to say no."

 

21 shots fired, but I only hear 3.  How many do you hear, David?  Start at 1:00 if it doesn't do it automatically.

 

 

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Expanding on Kellerman.  I'm still a little suspicious of Greer.

This is from Vince Palamara:

The following agents believed that there was a conspiracy involved in JFK's death (I use past tense only because most of them are now deceased):

1) Samuel A. Kinney- Sam told me this three times (he also stated that he found the notion of conspiracy "plausible" to the HSCA, based off the recently-released contact reports available thru the ARRB/ Archives). He thought Oswald was the lone shooter, although he stated emphatically that there were no missed shots (!)- he spoke to Connally about this and THE GOVERNOR AGREED WITH SAM! Sam also told me that the "right rear" of JFK's head was missing[he later recovered THE piece of the president's head on the C-130], and that his windshield (of the follow-up car) and left arm were splattered with blood and brain matter. Finally, whether hyperbole or not, Sam said "He had no brains left". Sam passed away 7/21/97 while vacationing in Iowa. His wife Hazel told me she regretted that Sam is now forever unable to tell more...;

2) Roy H. Kellerman- According to his widow June, Roy "accepted that there was a conspiracy"- this was based on June overhearing Roy's telephone conversation with someone from the HSCA in approx. 1977 or 1978. As we all know, Roy stated to the WC that "there has to be more than three shots, gentleman" and that a "flurry of shells" came into the car. Like Bill Greer, Roy is often added to the list of those witnesses who reported that the right rear of JFK's head was blasted. The above information was reported to author Anthony Summers for the Dec. 1994 "VANITY FAIR", p. 88 [uncredited]; you'll also find it in my book. Finally, Kellerman's daughter told Harold Weisberg in the 1970's that "I hope the day will come when these men [Kellerman and Greer*]will be able to say what they've told their families";

3) Abraham W. Bolden, Sr,- Abe is a firm believer in a conspiracy AND in Secret Service negligence. Also, Abe is adamant that there was a plot to kill JFK in Chicago in early November, 1963. I spoke to Bolden twice and corresponded at length with him between 1993 and the present. Bolden is currently working on his own book with his wife:)

;4) Maurice G. Martineau- Abe's boss in the Chicago office, Martineau was equally adamant to me that a conspiracy took the life of President Kennedy. He also told me he finds the work of the HSCA much more valid than that of the WC. However, when it comes to info. on the Chicago plot, Martineau is afraid to give me details to this day...;

5) John Norris- a member of the uniformed division of the Secret Service, Norris is a fervent believer in a conspiracy, although one gets the impression this is more based on his beliefs than actual knowledge, but I could be mistaken. Still, his views and beliefs are important for obvious reasons;

6) *Bill Greer- despite many suspicions I have about Greer's conduct on 11/22-11/23/63, he is a "default" addition to this list. In addition to Kellerman's daughter's comments mentioned above, he is also among those witnesses who, at least indirectly, gave testimony that the right rear of JFK's head was missing. Also, to the HSCA, he had much misgivings about the "Single Bullet Theory". Still, this could just be guilty conscience- he expressed much guilt to Jackie Kennedy concerning his awful performance on Elm Street (which he would later deny to the FBI and the WC; even Greer's son Richard was adamant to me that his father had absolutely no survivor's guilt, despite these documented, very early guilt feelings.

Even Dave Powers and Ken O'Donnell document Greer's early remorse ["Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye'; see also Powers interview by Charles Kuralt, 11/22/88 on video];

Also, Paul E. Landis, Jr., an agent in the follow-up car who, like agent Hill, was assigned to Jackie, stated twice that shots came from the front [18H755; 18H759];

In addition, agent Thomas "Lem" Johns, who rode in the V.P. follow-up car, told the HSCA that "the first two [shots] sounded like they were on the side of me towards the grassy knoll" [RIF 180-10074-10079]; Finally, SAIC of the Dallas office, Forrest V. Sorrels, riding in the lead car, believed the shots came from the front [Mark Lane's "Rush to Judgement" film- interview with Orville Nix, a good friend of Sorrels' who worked in the Dallas office as a maintenance worker]. I spoke very briefly to Sorrels on two occasions in 1992, a year before he died- he would not clarify anything...

Vince Palamara

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David,

I'm not going get into a full debate concerning the "single-bullet theory".  Chapter 2 of Lamar Waldron's book, "The Hidden History of the JFK Assassination" provides ample evidence and proof that the "single-bullet theory" is pure fantasy.  Even members of the WC didn't believe in the "single-bullet" theory.  Senator Richard B. Russell of Georgia strenuously objected to its inclusion and wanted to issue a dissenting opinion about it.  Senator Sherman Cooper of Kentucky and Senator Hale Boggs of Louisiana also strongly disagreed with the theory.  Governor John Connally always stated that he was struck by the first shot and that a separate shot struck JFK, and Nellie Connally agreed in her testimony.  These two people, one of them an actual casualty of the assassination, make the "single-bullet" theory impossible.  

 

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3 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

David,

I'm not going get into a full debate concerning the "single-bullet theory".  

 

Rich, you're just wasting your time.  It's going to wreck the thread, which is his goal.   Take a look at the Mexico City thread running currently.  Now, if you want to have some fun like I do, then go right ahead.  

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