Bush not in Dallas- He is dead

[David Von Pein]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

But doing the reconstruction again using this DPD radio transcript I get nearly the same result.

Bowley said that he arrived at 1:10 according to his watch and called in on Tippit's radio.

But that DPD log shows Bowley called in at 1:16 or 1:17. Which means Bowley must have waited 6 or 7 minutes to use the radio. But we know he never waited that long.

Simple answer: Bowley was off by a few minutes on the time of his arrival.

I think you'll agree that the official DPD Radio Log (which shows a 1:16-1:17 time for Bowley's call) is probably a little better than relying on Bowley's wristwatch. Right?

Edited December 31, 2018 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I believe the timestamp was originally "1:10" [on the Dudley Hughes ambulance slip] and that the "0" was later changed to an "8."

Great! I can now add still more fake stuff to my 21-item list posted earlier. Thanks, Sandy.

Edited December 31, 2018 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The following official document shows that Tippit was at the hospital by no later than 1:15 PM. Do you think that Tippit arrived at the hospital less than a minute after being shot?

[Quoting Dale Myers:]

"The death certificate "discrepancy" - as I noted in "With Malice" - was explained during a 1983 interview I conducted with the late Dr. Paul Moellenhoff, who attended Tippit at Methodist. He told me that the clocks within the emergency area at Methodist showed different times - neither of them accurate as it turns out.

He used the 1:15 p.m. time shown on one of the clocks. The time reported to the FBI by Dr. Liquori (With Malice [WM], 2013 [edition], p.557) - 1:24 pm - is probably the accurate one based on the recorded timing of Bowley's call, the recorded departure of the ambulance from 10th and Patton, and the known drive time from 10th and Patton to Methodist Hospital.

DPD Officer Davenport noted that Moellenhoff removed one slug from Tippit's body at 1:30 pm (WM 2013 p.536). That same time (1:30 pm) made its way into Leavelle's homicide report (WM 2013 p.519) as the time Tippit was pronounced DOA (which couldn't possibly be true, right? You don't pull a slug from a body until after he's pronounced dead). This matches up with Moellenhoff's 1983 recollection that he removed a slug from the body within ten minutes of declaring Tippit DOA.

My caption under the death certificate (WM 2013 p.506) seeks to clarify the discrepancy between the Time of Injury (1:18 pm) and the time Death Occurred (1:15 pm). Again, it stems from my conversation with Dr. Moellenhoff. The 1:18 pm time, of course, probably refers to the time that Bowley's radio call was received - not the actual time Tippit was shot.

The 1:15 p.m. notation (although close in time to the actual moment of the shooting, as far as I can calculate) probably stems from Dr. Moellenhoff's use of an inaccurate Methodist emergency room clock.

Interesting, huh? All this fuss because no one at Methodist bothered to synchronize the clocks to actual time (some running fast, some running slow).

Can you imagine how many other death certificates were marked with times that were off by a few minutes? But what does it matter in those cases? Not one whit."

-- Dale K. Myers; February 7, 2015

Edited December 31, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

9 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

But that DPD log shows Bowley called in at 1:16 or 1:17. Which means Bowley must have waited 6 or 7 minutes to use the radio. But we know he never waited that long.

Simple answer: Bowley was off by a few minutes on the time of his arrival.

I think you'll agree that the official DPD Radio Log (which shows a 1:16-1:17 time for Bowley's call) is probably a little better than relying on Bowley's wristwatch. Right?

 

Normally that's what  I would think,  yes. But not when I take into consideration the rest of the evidence. Like the fact that the official time that Tippit's body arrived at the hospital, where he was declared DOA, is 1:15. When I look at that, then I suddenly wonder if maybe Bowley's wristwatch was right after all.

Then there's the witness who said she heard the shots at 1:06 and she knew so because of a live TV broadcast she was watching, and the other witnesses who said the time of the shots was close to 1:00.

If you ignore for a moment the ABSOLUTE times given on the DPD radio transcripts and instead pay attention to the RELATIVE times, then everything makes sense. Which makes me begin to wonder if the times on the transcripts were altered.

When I consider that possibility, I discover that it appears that 8 or 9 minutes were added to all the transcript times. Because when I subtract that amount from everything, it all makes sense.

Recall that I believe that the ambulance dispatch slip was originally timestamped as 1:10, but that the 0 was changed to 8. So 8 minutes was added to that time IMO.

Now here's the kicker... if  you look at the original transcript rather than the re-typed one on McAdams' site, you will see that when the ambulance driver asked "What was that address on Jefferson?," the time given on the transcript is 1:10!  Rather than 1:19! I believe that the person who altered the timestamps on that transcript accidentally missed that particular one.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The following official document shows that Tippit was at the hospital by no later than 1:15 PM. Do you think that Tippit arrived at the hospital less than a minute after being shot?

[Quoting Dale Myers:]

"The death certificate "discrepancy" - as I noted in "With Malice" - was explained during a 1983 interview I conducted with the late Dr. Paul Moellenhoff, who attended Tippit at Methodist. He told me that the clocks within the emergency area at Methodist showed different times - neither of them accurate as it turns out.

He used the 1:15 p.m. time shown on one of the clocks. The time reported to the FBI by Dr. Liquori (With Malice [WM], 2013 [edition], p.557) - 1:24 pm - is probably the accurate one based on the recorded timing of Bowley's call, the recorded departure of the ambulance from 10th and Patton, and the known drive time from 10th and Patton to Methodist Hospital.

DPD Officer Davenport noted that Moellenhoff removed one slug from Tippit's body at 1:30 pm (WM 2013 p.536). That same time (1:30 pm) made its way into Leavelle's homicide report (WM 2013 p.519) as the time Tippit was pronounced DOA (which couldn't possibly be true, right? You don't pull a slug from a body until after he's pronounced dead). This matches up with Moellenhoff's 1983 recollection that he removed a slug from the body within ten minutes of declaring Tippit DOA.

My caption under the death certificate (WM 2013 p.506) seeks to clarify the discrepancy between the Time of Injury (1:18 pm) and the time Death Occurred (1:15 pm). Again, it stems from my conversation with Dr. Moellenhoff. The 1:18 pm time, of course, probably refers to the time that Bowley's radio call was received - not the actual time Tippit was shot.

The 1:15 p.m. notation (although close in time to the actual moment of the shooting, as far as I can calculate) probably stems from Dr. Moellenhoff's use of an inaccurate Methodist emergency room clock.

Interesting, huh? All this fuss because no one at Methodist bothered to synchronize the clocks to actual time (some running fast, some running slow).

Can you imagine how many other death certificates were marked with times that were off by a few minutes? But what does it matter in those cases? Not one whit."

-- Dale K. Myers; February 7, 2015

 

Dale Myers is a proven l.i.a.r. I don't trust anything he says.

 

[David Von Pein]

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Dale Myers is a proven l.i.a.r. I don't trust anything he says.

Naturally.

[David Von Pein]

5 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Recall that I believe that the ambulance dispatch slip was originally timestamped as 1:10, but that the 0 was changed to 8. So 8 minutes was added to that time IMO.

Any chance you can prove that allegation?

Have you ever even SEEN the Dudley ambulance slip? I haven't.

[Sandy Larsen]

Just now, David Von Pein said:

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Recall that I believe that the ambulance dispatch slip was originally timestamped as 1:10, but that the 0 was changed to 8. So 8 minutes was added to that time IMO.

Any chance you can prove that allegation?

Nope... I haven't seen the slip. I believe what I said just because the evidence indicates to me that 9 minutes were added to all the timestamps in the radio transcripts. So it follows that roughly that same amount of time had to have been added to the ambulance dispatch slip as well.

BTW David, I'm not doing this in an attempt to bolster my case. There's plenty of other stuff to support my POV and frankly it would be easier just to accept the WC's Tippit timing. But I don't work that way. Maybe it's the engineer in me... everything has an explanation and so EVERYTHING needs to be explained. If there are inconsistencies, I need to explain them.

 

[David Von Pein]

26 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Nope... I haven't seen the slip. I believe what I said just because the evidence indicates to me that 9 minutes were added to all the timestamps in the radio transcripts. So it follows that roughly that same amount of time had to have been added to the ambulance dispatch slip as well.

BTW David, I'm not doing this in an attempt to bolster my case. There's plenty of other stuff to support my POV and frankly it would be easier just to accept the WC's Tippit timing. But I don't work that way. Maybe it's the engineer in me... everything has an explanation and so EVERYTHING needs to be explained. If there are inconsistencies, I need to explain them.

Fair enough. But as far as the Tippit case is concerned, I think many CTers have a habit of focusing way too much on various "inconsistencies" (clothing and otherwise) and timing issues, while they practically ignore (or deem not credible) the very BEST COMBINATION of evidence in the case ---- that "combination" being: the physical evidence of the bullet shells dumped by Tippit's killer at 10th & Patton (which positively came out of the gun that Oswald had in his possession when he was arrested), PLUS all those eyewitnesses who positively IDed Oswald as either the shooter or the person who was running away from the scene of the crime with a gun in his hands. Plus, there's the fight in the theater that ensued after Oswald was cornered, providing additional circumstantial evidence of Oswald's guilt.

I'm sorry, but T.F. Bowley's wristwatch does NOT wipe out all of that stuff I just talked about. Nor does Helen Markham's time estimates. Not even close.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#JD-Tippit

Edited January 1, 2019 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

That story by Myers is hilarious.

Sort of like Davey finding that postal worker who said, "Heck yeah, we can deliver a package 700 miles and have the guy get it within 12 hours. Even without zip codes. Do it all the time."

Davey, why not ask DM about the extra wallet?  He is still trying to find an excuse for that one.

Or better yet, how about the Single Bullet Fact.

[Jim Hargrove]

16 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Great! I can now add still more fake stuff to my 21-item list posted earlier. Thanks, Sandy.

You know, David, you continue to ignore the OBVIOUS proof that the FBI altered all kinds of evidence in this case in order to pin the crime on the designated patsy.  

Question: How much of the evidence against “Lee Harvey Oswald” is fake?
Answer: ALL OF IT, except, of course, for the many mistakes made during the hasty cover-up.

Evidence of Hoover’s treachery often takes time to explain, but, as I’ve shown before, sometimes it takes just seconds.  And yet you continue to act surprised that anyone would dare to suggest FBI fakery.  Why is that?

The short (3 minute) YouTube video below demonstrates quite clearly how the FBI altered the observations of three critical Dealey Plaza witnesses who believed shots may have been taken at JFK from outside of the Texas School Book Depository, thus contradicting the official story.

The FBI went to extraordinary lengths to suppress evidence of what CIA accountant James Wilcott called the “Oswald Project,” including sending out agents within hours of the assassination to confiscate original school and teen-aged employment records of “Lee Harvey Oswald.” In the wee hours of the night of Nov 22-23, 1963, the FBI secretly took “Oswald's Possessions” from the Dallas Police Department, transported them to Washington, D.C. altered them, and then quietly returned them to Dallas, only to publicly send them to Washington. D.C. a few days later. Among a great many other alterations, a Minox “spy camera” became a Minox “light meter.” Tax records, not found by Dallas police who said they initialed each scrap of paper, magically appeared without DPD initials.  FBI agent James Cadigan inadvertently spilled the beans about the secret transfer during his sworn WC testimony, which was altered by the WC.

The FBI falsified so much testimony that it even had a process in place for routinely doing so, including over the objections of Warren Commission attorneys.  

 

We have shown time and time again how Hoover’s FBI altered massive amounts of evidence in this case, but Warren Commission apologists continue to stick their collective heads in the sand and ignore it.  Why is that?

We have shown time and time again how Hoover’s FBI altered massive amounts of evidence in this case, but Warren Commission apologists continue to stick their collective heads in the sand and ignore it.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

15 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I'm sorry, but T.F. Bowley's wristwatch does NOT wipe out all of that stuff I just talked about. Nor does Helen Markham's time estimates. Not even close.

Ah, but you only mention part of the evidence!  Not only do you and Meyers haplessly claim the official Time of Death was wrong, but you ignore the evidence from many eye and ear witnesses.  For example....

Frank Cimino and Francis Kinneth heard the shots and saw Tippit’s dead or dying body at a time they estimated to be approximately 1:00 PM. 

Helen Markham had just arrived at the northwest corner of 10th & Patton, en route to catch the city bus one block south at Jefferson & Patton (at 1:15 PM). She told the Warren Commission it was "6 or 7 minutes after 1." 

Mrs. Margie Higgins, who lived at 417 East 10th St. was watching television and later told reporters, "Well, I was watching the news on television and for some reason the announcer turned and looked at the clock and said the time was six minutes after one (1:06 PM). At that point I heard the shots." 

Mrs. Doris Holan lived directly across the street from the Tippit shooting, on the 2nd floor at 409 E Tenth Street. Mrs. Holan had just returned home from her job a few minutes after 1:00 PM when she heard several gunshots.

T.F. Bowley was driving west on 10th Street and arrived a few minutes after the shooting. He looked at his watch--the time was 1:10 PM.  An original DPD police transcript, found in the National Archives, lists the time of Bowley's call  to the police as 1:10 PM.  The original DPD transcript (CE 705) shows the report of Tippit's murder by Bowley at 1:10 PM. The FBI transcript, (CE 1974) prepared in August, 1964, lists the reporting time of Tippit's murder by Bowley at 1:19 PM--nine minutes later.

Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig was searching the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, when a rifle was discovered. Craig wrote, “… At that exact moment an unknown Dallas police officer came running up the stairs and advised Capt. Fritz that a Dallas policeman had been shot in the Oak Cliff area. I instinctively looked at my watch. The time was 1:06 PM."

in March, 1982, after the dictabelts had been examined by experts and found to have evidence of alteration, Dallas researcher Gary Mack interviewed Capt. Bowles of the Dallas Police. Bowles told Gary Mack that he could not give any assurance that the belts which were returned by the FBI were the ones which left the possession of the DPD.   (Click here to read the complete article relating to the scientific analysis of the dictabelts.)

THE TIPPIT MURDER PAGE

Edited January 1, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Robert Card]

In examining the timing of the Tippit murder, I have to ask a question about Warren Burroughs, the manager of the concession stand at the Texas Theater.   He says that LHO came into the theater between 1:00, and 1:07.   Burroughs says he sold LHO a bag of popcorn at about 1:15.   I understand he retracted this statement later, but I'm not sure.   A theater patron, Jack Davis corroborates Burroughs statement by saying that he saw LHO prior to 1:20.

I'm not presenting a viewpoint here, I'm just asking if this has any impact on the Tippit time frame.

[Sandy Larsen]

20 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Fair enough.

But as far as the Tippit case is concerned, I think many CTers have a habit of focusing way too much on various "inconsistencies" (clothing and otherwise) and timing issues, while they practically ignore (or deem not credible) the very BEST COMBINATION of evidence in the case ---- that "combination" being: the physical evidence of the bullet shells dumped by Tippit's killer at 10th & Patton (which positively came out of the gun that Oswald had in his possession when he was arrested), PLUS all those eyewitnesses who positively IDed Oswald as either the shooter or the person who was running away from the scene of the crime with a gun in his hands. Plus, there's the fight in the theater that ensued after Oswald was cornered, providing additional circumstantial evidence of Oswald's guilt.

 

You may be right about that, Dave, as far as the Tippit case goes. I can't say because so far I've studied only the timing of the case. Other CTers would have to weigh in on this if they wanted to defend their views.

 

20 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I'm sorry, but T.F. Bowley's wristwatch does NOT wipe out all of that stuff I just talked about. Nor does Helen Markham's time estimates.

 

More than that, David:

• Helen Markham, waiting for the 1:15 bus, said the approximate time was 1:06 or 1:07.
• Margie Higgins said that the TV announcer had just said the time was 1:06 when she heard the shots.
• T.F.Bowley looked at his watch and it read 1:10. This was after some of the neighbors gathered around the body.
• Tippit's death certificate stated that he was announced DOA at 1:15. (Actually it's an autopsy permit. I don't know why there is no death certificate.)

Plus there is this, also giving the hospital's 1:15 DOA time:

 

 

Also there's the dropped Oswald wallet that was suppressed, likely because his wallet was taken from him at the theater.

All this needs explaining.

 

[David Von Pein]

8 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Question: How much of the evidence against “Lee Harvey Oswald” is fake?
Answer: ALL OF IT, except, of course, for the many mistakes made during the hasty cover-up.

Thanks, Jim, for putting that belief in writing (and in a succinct form). I'll now be able to use your quote whenever I want to highlight yet another CTer's absurd "Over The Top" beliefs relating to the evidence in the John F. Kennedy murder case. Much obliged. (And the placing of quotation marks around Lee Harvey Oswald's name is another humorous little idiosyncrasy to be found among the current batch of 21st-century conspiracy fantasists. As if there was actually more than one "Lee Harvey Oswald". Too cute.)

Edited January 2, 2019 by David Von Pein