Bush not in Dallas- He is dead

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sandy,

Whether David has a point about Roger Craig or not, it is obvious that the timings recorded on the dictabelts were altered by the FBI.  Magnetic audio tapes were almost certainly involved as an intermediate step in the process of alteration.  The dictabelt recordings were similar to vinyl records, in that physical grooves were cut into the plastic by a needle which, in combination with a microphone, vibrated according to air pressure changes produced by audible sounds.

It was physically impossible to edit a dictabelt in any meaningful way.  Think of trying reorder the various tracks of a vinyl LP with a scalpel and glue.  There’s no way that will work.  But transfer the LP or dictabelt content to magnetic audio tape, and then it is easy to make edits merely by cutting and splicing together parts of the tape.  In the days before everything was digitized and stored electronically, this was the way music and the spoken word was commonly edited.

The listing of a “Tape splice” on the FBI transcript (CE1974) of the DPD radio broadcasts is strong evidence that the dictabelt content was transferred to audio tape, altered on tape, transferred back to dictabelts, and finally returned to the Dallas Police.  Why else involve audio tape?

As always, we are forced to try and discover the truth by analyzing the errors the FBI made in their cover-up efforts, and in a case this huge, it's obvious they made plenty of mistakes.

 

I don't think there is any question that the Dictabelts were recorded onto audio tapes. In fact a couple days ago I read an online a history of the belts and the tapes. It was very detailed and seemed to be well researched. It said that the tape recordings were copied  back onto Dictabelts. I wondered to myself why they would do that, but now I realize that the Dictabelt form was necessary for doing the transcripts. Anyway, had I known that anybody has doubts that the Dictabelts were recorded onto tape, I would have bookmarked the document.

Of course you are right about it being impossible to edit the Dictabelts. And I know how easy it is to edit audio tapes... I had a toy tape recorder when I was like 9 years old, and my parents had a nice Sony portable one. I had a ton of fun doing a variety of things with the recorders. With some modification mine could be forced to play at different speeds, and even backwards.

 

[François Carlier]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

More proof that the FBI altered the DPD radio dictabelts by recording their contents on magnetic audio tape, editing the tape by physically cutting and splicing, and then re-recording new dictabelts.

The DPD radio transcript created by FBI  (CE1974) reads at 1:44 PM: "Tape splice" (below).

For those too young to remember them, Dictabelts were thin plastic belts 12 inches in circumference and 3-1/2 inches wide.  Recordings were made on Dictabelts by a sharp stylus (a needle) that cut grooves in the plastic and vibrated according to sound pressure, in a process similar to mastering a vinyl LP record.

The same machine, called a Dictaphone or Time-Master, recorded the sound and then played it back.  No magnetic audio tape was involved... just the plastic belts ...

... until, that is, the FBI began faking yet more evidence.  The excerpt of CE1974 (above) is yet another piece of evidence showing how the FBI altered the timing of the DPD radio broadcast transcripts.

As John wrote on my website, READERS MUST REMEMBER THAT ALL OF THESE TYPEWRITTEN TRANSCRIPTS, THE FIRST OF WHICH WAS CREATED ON DECEMBER 3, WERE CREATED ONLY AFTER THE FBI RECEIVED THE ORIGINAL DPD DICTABELTS AND DISKS A FEW DAYS AFTER THE ASSASSINATION, AND THEN RETURNED ALTERED COPIES TO THE DPD.  

Hello Sir,
I know that I have to reply to other posts but I would just like to ask you one simple question today :
The DPD conversations on November 22, 1963, on the two channels, recorded by the dictabelt, were sort of "public", meaning that dozens and dozens of people heard them (everybody was listening, not to mention those who uttered the words).
Has there been even one single police officer to ever claim that some part was missing in the recording, or that they remembered saying something on that day that was missing from the recording, or that some important annoucement was made (for instance : "Attention all squads, the suspect Lee Oswald has been seen at Jack Ruby's place") that was subsequently erased ? You understand my point. In other words, has there ever been one police officer or patrolman, you know, somebody who actually talked on the police radio channels on November 22, 1963, who later claimed that the recording did NOT match what they remembered ?
In other words, has anybody from the Dallas police ever noticed that the FBI had altered the recording, or is it only you who claim that ?

[David Von Pein]

50 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Well sure, it's possible that Roger Craig's watch was off by 16 minutes. But it's MUCH more likely for a watch to be off by (our) 7 minutes than by (your) 16 minutes. The odds of each can easily be determined using an online probability calculator.

Here's a much better possibility....

Roger Craig lied when he said he looked at his watch and noted the time as 1:06. In 1968, he said he wasn't even on the 6th floor at the time he found out Tippit had been shot.

 

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

And what you are proposing simply will not pass the reality test, in state.  Forget going across the country.  That is pure fantasy land.

I don't need to fly to Fantasy Land to prove my point about Oswald's letter. I've got rock solid PROOF that it travelled from Dallas to Chicago in one day. And that proof is in the form of the three documents pictured below (CE773, CE788, and Waldman Exhibit No. 7).

CE773 is clearly dated March 12 (10:30 AM);

CE788 [the money order Oswald bought at the Post Office] clearly has the date of March 12 on it;

And Waldman No. 7 [the Klein's internal order form for Oswald's rifle purchase] has the date March 13 stamped at the top of it.

Now, just try convincing a reasonable jury of 12 men and women that all three of these documents are fake (which clearly is the fantastic belief possessed by most of the Internet conspiracy theorists here in the 21st century)....

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2019 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

As Sandy noted above, it does not mean one thing that you found a fruity postal worker to say what you wanted him to say.  

Oh, so you think that I myself arranged to have this guy who works for Los Angeles Airways to appear on Groucho Marx's radio program in 1952 so that he could talk about being able to get a letter to travel from California to New York in less than a day?

Seeing as how I wasn't even born until 1961, that would have been a nifty little trick on my part, wouldn't it?

Or maybe you got mixed up and were really referring to the time I received the assistance of former postal worker Jimmy Orr when talking about the topic of Oswald's rifle order---in this discussion.

 

Edited January 2, 2019 by David Von Pein

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, François Carlier said:

In other words, has anybody from the Dallas police ever noticed that the FBI had altered the recording, or is it only you who claim that ?

In March 1982, after the dictabelts had been examined by experts and found to have evidence of alteration, Dallas researcher Gary Mack interviewed Capt. Bowles of the Dallas Police. Bowles told Gary Mack that he could not give any assurance that the belts which were returned by the FBI were the ones which left the possession of the DPD.  (Click here to read the complete article relating to the scientific analysis of the dictabelts.)

The timing alterations were hardly memorable, merely adding nine or ten minutes to the time stamps to give "Lee Harvey Oswald" time to walk from the North Beckley rooming house to 10th and Patton.  If any Dallas cops or civilians who had a police scanner noticed these small alterations, would they have come forward?  Ask Frank Serpico about his experiences!

[Sandy Larsen]

19 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

7 hours ago, François Carlier said:

In other words, has anybody from the Dallas police ever noticed that the FBI had altered the recording, or is it only you who claim that ?

In March 1982, after the dictabelts had been examined by experts and found to have evidence of alteration, Dallas researcher Gary Mack interviewed Capt. Bowles of the Dallas Police. Bowles told Gary Mack that he could not give any assurance that the belts which were returned by the FBI were the ones which left the possession of the DPD.  (Click here to read the complete article relating to the scientific analysis of the dictabelts.)

The timing alterations were hardly memorable, merely adding nine or ten minutes to the time stamps to give "Lee Harvey Oswald" time to walk from the North Beckley rooming house to 10th and Patton.  If any Dallas cops or civilians who had a police scanner noticed these small alterations, would they have come forward?  Ask Frank Serpico about his experiences!

 

Do cops actually spend time listening to their radio recordings?

 

[Jim Hargrove]

8 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Now, just try convincing a reasonable jury of 12 men and women that all three of these documents are fake (which clearly is the fantastic belief possessed by most of the Internet conspiracy theorists here in the 21st century)....

David Von Pein continues to express amazement that anyone would even consider the possibility that the FBI altered, manufactured and destroyed a massive amount of “evidence” in this case.  This is despite the fact that we have shown him how this was done time and time again.  

As I have shown many times in the past, here is my favorite example, because it takes only three minutes to watch and understand, but there is much, much more.

Now, David offers us, once more, the Magic Money Order® and an envelope and Klein’s order form and says, “just try convincing a reasonable jury of 12 men and women that all three of these documents are fake….”  OK, let’s consider this so-called “evidence.”

Let’s start with the Magic Money Order®, but, since David neglected to do so above, let’s show BOTH SIDES!

 

Note the back side, which contains a rubber stamp from Klein’s and no other endorsement of any kind.  If memory serves, David claims to have found a Warren Commission supporting Postal expert who claims that the bank endorsements are not needed, but long ago Sandy Larsen proved that laws and postal regulations from the era clearly indicated that they were.  Here is Sandy’s proof.

Below, by the way, is Waldman Exhibit 190, which allegedly shows the paperwork for Klein’s depositing the Magic Money Order®.  Just a couple of minor problems with it.  The dollar amount is wrong, and it is dated Feb. 15, 1963—a month before “Hidell” allegedly ordered from Klein’s!!!  More and more magic!

The problem for the FBI, as shown above, is that it had no way to fabricate First National Bank of Chicago documents!  Just as it had no way to fabricate Bank Endorsements on the Magic Money Order.  All the Bureau had access to was Klein's forms (because special agents were camped out at Klein's immediately after the assassination), and USPS forms and stamps, probably through Harry Holmes (see below).

David also tells us it is impossible to believe that CE 773, the envelope “A. Hidell” allegedly used to send the Magic Money Order®, is a forgery.  Several people in this thread have discussed the problems with this envelope, and I would simply add that it would be instructive to see how U.S. Postal Inspector Harry Holmes might have helped create it. Holmes apparently was the only man on earth known to hear “Lee Harvey Oswald” say in police custody that he traveled to Mexico City, and he was instrumental in “finding” the Magic Money Order®.  He certainly had the ability to help the FBI create this document.

Finally, David offers us Waldman Exhibit 7, which shows “A. Hidell” apparently ordered a rifle with 4x scope for $19.95 plus $1.50 postage and handling for a total of $21.45.  But this appears to be a back-dated fabrication prepared at least a week after the assassination.  Why?  Because for a week or so, the FBI had yet to determine how much the rifle actually cost. For some time, it claimed that the rifle, with scope, cost just $12.78.

All David’s documents are nothing but the fruit of the same poisoned tree!

For more on this, see John’s essays:

Oswald Did NOT Purchase a Rifle from Kleins

and

MAIL ORDER RIFLE

[François Carlier]

29 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

David Von Pein continues to express amazement that anyone would even consider the possibility that the FBI altered, manufactured and destroyed a massive amount of “evidence” in this case.  This is despite the fact that we have shown him how this was done time and time again.  

As I have shown many times in the past, here is my favorite example, because it takes only three minutes to watch and understand, but there is much, much more.

Now, David offers us, once more, the Magic Money Order® and an envelope and Klein’s order form and says, “just try convincing a reasonable jury of 12 men and women that all three of these documents are fake….”  OK, let’s consider this so-called “evidence.”

Let’s start with the Magic Money Order®, but, since David neglected to do so above, let’s show BOTH SIDES!

 

Note the back side, which contains a rubber stamp from Klein’s and no other endorsement of any kind.  If memory serves, David claims to have found a Warren Commission supporting Postal expert who claims that the bank endorsements are not needed, but long ago Sandy Larsen proved that laws and postal regulations from the era clearly indicated that they were.  Here is Sandy’s proof.

Below, by the way, is Waldman Exhibit 190, which allegedly shows the paperwork for Klein’s depositing the Magic Money Order®.  Just a couple of minor problems with it.  The dollar amount is wrong, and it is dated Feb. 15, 1963—a month before “Hidell” allegedly ordered from Klein’s!!!  More and more magic!

The problem for the FBI, as shown above, is that it had no way to fabricate First National Bank of Chicago documents!  Just as it had no way to fabricate Bank Endorsements on the Magic Money Order.  All the Bureau had access to was Klein's forms (because special agents were camped out at Klein's immediately after the assassination), and USPS forms and stamps, probably through Harry Holmes (see below).

David also tells us it is impossible to believe that CE 773, the envelope “A. Hidell” allegedly used to send the Magic Money Order®, is a forgery.  Several people in this thread have discussed the problems with this envelope, and I would simply add that it would be instructive to see how U.S. Postal Inspector Harry Holmes might have helped create it. Holmes apparently was the only man on earth known to hear “Lee Harvey Oswald” say in police custody that he traveled to Mexico City, and he was instrumental in “finding” the Magic Money Order®.  He certainly had the ability to help the FBI create this document.

Finally, David offers us Waldman Exhibit 7, which shows “A. Hidell” apparently ordered a rifle with 4x scope for $19.95 plus $1.50 postage and handling for a total of $21.45.  But this appears to be a back-dated fabrication prepared at least a week after the assassination.  Why?  Because for a week or so, the FBI had yet to determine how much the rifle actually cost. For some time, it claimed that the rifle, with scope, cost just $12.78.

All David’s documents are nothing but the fruit of the same poisoned tree!

For more on this, see John’s essays:

Oswald Did NOT Purchase a Rifle from Kleins

and

MAIL ORDER RIFLE

Nonetheless, there is an indisputable fact : Oswald owned a rifle and a revolver. Nobody can ever deny that. His own wife took pictures of him with his rifle and his revolver, at his home.
End of story.
(He had to buy them somewhere)

[James DiEugenio]

Davey:

Don't even bring that whole phony rifle transaction up again OK.

Its a loser.  We found two bank supervisors and Sandy found the regulation.  David Josephs also did fine work on it.   In fact, I think it all looks worse now. Even with your fruity postal worker, who I am sure will also vouch for the Single Bullet Fantasy.

But, in another sense, your continuing and appalling attitude that the idea that the FBI or DPD would not fiddle around with evidence?  I mean do you know how silly and naive you sound in light of what is known today?

The DPD was the single most corrupt big city police force in America at that time.  No city has had more serious crimes reversed due to DNA evidence than Dallas.  I mean there are whole states that are not as bad as that city was in this regard.  Also as Joe McBride has shown, there was a significant number of Klansmen on that force.  Think they liked Kennedy?  I mean you heard what Alexander said about Kennedy right?  You heard what Leavelle said also?

How do you reconcile what I think is your admiration for JFK with those comments?  Do I need to repeat them for you?

As per the FBI, you cannot be serious: with that wide-eyed open mouthed disbelief about the practices of J. Edgar Hoover.  I mean, please.  Are you still psychologically in sixth grade on this aspect of the case?  You do know how many devastating exposes have been written about how badly Hoover either faked or altered evidence in high profile cases, and then lied about it afterwards right?  There are several books on this subject, the one I refer to most is Gentry's.  If you want me to be specific I will.  But this extended as far as having double agents planted in communist cells who would then create evidence and testify falsely on the stand against some poor innocent lefty.  Does it get worse than that for an FBI director?

Now, recall, in these other cases there was at least the semblance of an adversary system in court.  In other words the defendant had an attorney, judge, and rules of evidence and testimony were in play.  

NONE OF THAT EXISTED IN THE JFK CASE!

Therefore, it was even easier to get away with this stuff than in a normal case.  So what was going to stop Hoover from doing this kind of thing? Or the CIA, or the Secret Service?

So for you to sit there misty eyed and argue, "Are you saying the FBI or DPD would not play by the rules?"  And then play something like the Battle Hymn of the Republic in the background--I mean do you know how ignorant that kind of view of America is?  You might still believe in Leave it to Beaver. And Ozzie and Harriet.  

After Vietnam, Cambodia, Watergate, the revelations of the Church Committee and the Pike Committee and myriad other crimes and scandals, most adults do not.

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, François Carlier said:

Nonetheless, there is an indisputable fact : Oswald owned a rifle and a revolver. Nobody can ever deny that. His own wife took pictures of him with his rifle and his revolver, at his home.
End of story.
(He had to buy them somewhere)

HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH!

That “indisputable fact” was denied within hours of the assassination of JFK by Oswald himself when, in police custody, he allegedly told the Dallas cops that the so-called “Backyard Photo” was a picture of someone else with his (Oswald’s) face pasted on the body... and many experts today think he is correct.

"No one can ever deny that"???????????

Do you know ANY of the basics of this case?

[Robert Card]

I don't know why you waste your time with these dis-informationists.   They're trying to keep you locked into the WC report so that you don't find out what's really going on, and they're doing a damn good job of it.

You take 3 big-a$$ Jesuits like Posner, Bugliosi, and McAdams, I know who they work for, and why they do the disinfo, and also act like hardheads.  You're not going to be arguing about Ruth Paine, Jack Ruby,  and dictabelts 15 years from now, are you?  They're very good at wasting your time, and believe it or not, they're the ones that are awake.

I warn you though, being red-pilled and going further down the rabbit hole may not be a fun place to be.  Kardashians, ball games, other bread and circusses is a much more peaceful kind of a life.

 

[François Carlier]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH!

That “indisputable fact” was denied within hours of the assassination of JFK by Oswald himself when, in police custody, he allegedly told the Dallas cops that the so-called “Backyard Photo” was a picture of someone else with his (Oswald’s) face pasted on the body... and many experts today think he is correct.

"No one can ever deny that"???????????

Do you know ANY of the basics of this case?

Are you serious ?
Are you telling us that you believe a guy who is in police custody and charged with murder ? All of them -- ALL of them, always -- deny guilt. Christopher Porco said he was innocent, Scott Peterson said he was innocent, Christopher Watts said he didn't know where his wife and two kids were, OJ Simpson said that he was 100% not guilty, and so on, so forth. I could give you one thousand examples easily.
Do you actually believe them ? Do you believe a man who has been arrested for murder and says he hasn't done anything ? Does it surprise you when he denies guilt ?
Oswald was arrested. When shown a photo of him he denied that it was him. What a surprise ! Of course he denied ! So what ? He did what everybody does in that situation.
Please don't tell me that you take his denials into account.
More to the point. His wife herself said that she did take those pictures !
Maybe you don't want to hear about that or you feel more comfortable brushing that aside ?
As to your vague statement "many experts…" who are they ? Robert Groden ? David Mantik ? Give me a break ! You know perfectly well that all the experts over the years who have studied those backyard photos have proved beyond a reasonable doubt -- if not beyond any doubt -- that those pictures are genuine.
Face it !
The truth is that I am right. Those pictures exist that show Oswlad with the rifle and the revolver. THERE IS NO DENYING IT.
You may think what you want about a cover up or the Vietnam war or deep American politics, but trying to refuse the fact that Marina took pictures of her husband with his rifle and his revolver is dishonesty at best. I'm sure that you know it.
Now, I must admit that there are several precise questions as to records about Oswald being registred at some school when he was supposed to be in another, or things of the kind, for which I have no answer yet, for lack of detailed research in this particular area. I'll admit that and as I said previsously I intend to look into it, in order to be able to answer with honesty. But that's another matter altogether.
The matter of the backyard photos has been settled once and for all long ago.
Trying to deny that fact can only undermine whatever else you may have to say about other areas of the Kennedy assassination case !

[Robert Card]

BTW, watch out for that Devils Trident in Dealey Plaza as well as the old World Trade Center.

[Robert Card]

5 minutes ago, François Carlier said:

Are you serious ?
The matter of the backyard photos has been settled once and for all long ago.
Trying to deny that fact can only undermine whatever else you may have to say about other areas of the Kennedy assassination case !

Francois, I always wondered how LHO's chin could look so different in the backyard photos, as compared to other photos.  Roscoe White had a wide chin just like shown in the backyard photos.

You would agree that LHO had a more 'pointed' chin?

Do you happen to know if Roscoe's wife, Geneva, worked as a barmaid or stripper in Jack Ruby's Carousel Club?  I can't seem to find the answer on my own.