Shirt bunching experiment (SBT)

[Vince Palamara]

The quality is amazing!

 

[John Butler]

This discussion has moved considerably since I last posted here.  Bart Kamp's photo has been posted by Vince Palamara with an explanation of its source.  He also wonders about the angle of the two holes in the shirt matching anything reasonable.  I don't think JFK could have bent over that far to make those holes match for someone shooting from above.

There's another problem.  Is this a forgery?  Or, is other pictures of JFK's shirt a forgery?  Look at this an see if you can find a hole in the shirt just below the collar button in the left hand part of this photo.  I can't find one.  The image to the left is a little blurry but, still clear enough to see whether a hole is there or not.  What do you think? 

The right hand photo of the JFK shirt suggests it was taken prior to the FBI snipping segments away from the hole.  Is that right?  Does that make sense with a photo taken in 1993?

Something is not right about this hole in the back of the shirt just as there is something not right with the hole in the front of the shirt.

Couple this apparent forgery (which one?) with the argument over which hole in Kennedy's back lines up with these holes in shirt and jacket then you have a real mystery.

Edited December 18, 2018 by John Butler

[Vince Palamara]

22 minutes ago, John Butler said:

This discussion has moved considerably since I last posted here.  Bart Kamp's photo has been posted by Vince Palamara with an explanation of its source.  He also wanders about the angle of the two holes in the shirt matching anything reasonable.  I don't think JFK could have bent over that far to make those holes match for someone shooting from above.

There's another problem.  Is this a forgery?  Or, is other pictures of JFK's shirt a forgery?  Look at this an see if you can find a hole in the shirt just below the collar button in the left hand part of this photo.  I can't find one.  The image to the left is a little blurry but, still clear enough to see whether a hole is there or not.  What do you think? 

The right hand photo of the JFK shirt suggests it was taken prior to the FBI snipping segments away from the hole.  Is that right?  Does that make sense with a photo taken in 1993?

The 1993 photos were for the (then) upcoming 30th anniversary, they are in black and white and are in better quality.

[John Butler]

Vince,

I have edited my recent post and have added extra material.  Even though the black and white is much clearer than the color photo I still don't see a hole in the shirt in the color photo just below the collar button.

[Sandy Larsen]

40 minutes ago, John Butler said:

This discussion has moved considerably since I last posted here.  Bart Kamp's photo has been posted by Vince Palamara with an explanation of its source.  He also wonders about the angle of the two holes in the shirt matching anything reasonable.  I don't think JFK could have bent over that far to make those holes match for someone shooting from above.

There's another problem.  Is this a forgery?  Or, is other pictures of JFK's shirt a forgery?  Look at this an see if you can find a hole in the shirt just below the collar button in the left hand part of this photo.  I can't find one.  The image to the left is a little blurry but, still clear enough to see whether a hole is there or not.  What do you think? 

The right hand photo of the JFK shirt suggests it was taken prior to the FBI snipping segments away from the hole.  Is that right?  Does that make sense with a photo taken in 1993?

Something is not right about this hole in the back of the shirt just as there is something not right with the hole in the front of the shirt.

Couple this apparent forgery (which one?) with the argument over which hole in Kennedy's back lines up with these holes in shirt and jacket then you have a real mystery.

 

John,

Not only is there a hole where you describe, but there is a matching one on the other side, just below the collar button HOLE. The two holes are visible in better quality photos. Some researchers call them slits. They overlap when the shirt is buttoned shut. It is said that the throat projectile (bullet or fragment) caused them.

 

 

[John Butler]

Thanks Sandy,

It took a moment to understand what you were saying.  So, holes on both sides that button together.  Two holes.  Four holes.  You can see that in the black and white on the photo left side.  But, not so much on the photo right side.  

That presents a problem.  Dr. Perry said he saw only one hole, not two or, any kind of wound with two holes.

What about the problem of the snipped hole done by the FBI?  When was that done?  If the black and white photo was taken in 1993 how does that relate to the photo showing a snipped hole?

l have always felt that JFKs cothing was a forgery but, had no evidence or reason to believe it.  I have felt this way because of the autopsy photo and line drawing shown earlier that suggests more than one gunshot in the back.  Now there seems to be more data to back that up.

Thanks for your response.

PS

There is only one hole in Vince Palamaras post of the JFK tie.  Strange isnt it?

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by John Butler

[Sandy Larsen]

34 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Thanks Sandy,

It took a moment to understand what you were saying.  So, holes on both sides that button together.  Two holes.  Four holes.  You can see that in the black and white on the photo left side.  But, not so much on the photo right side.  

That presents a problem.  Dr. Perry said he saw only one hole, not two or, any kind of wound with two holes.

What about the problem of the snipped hole done by the FBI?  When was that done?  If the black and white photo was taken in 1993 how does that relate to the photo showing a snipped hole?

l have always felt that JFKs cothing was a forgery but, had no evidence or reason to believe it.  I have felt this way because of the autopsy photo and line drawing shown earlier that suggests more than one gunshot in the back.  Now there seems to be more data to back that up.

Thanks for your response.

PS

There is only one hole in Vince Palamaras post of the JFK tie.  Strange isnt it?

 

 

John,

I think I need to explain a little better. Take a look at this particular photo:

 

 

The pointer points to the bullet hole in the back of the shirt, right?  (That's rhetorical... .)

There are two more bullet holes in this photo, and they are both on the front of the shirt. One is about 3/4" below the collar button. The other is covered up by the GettyImages logo. That one is the same distance, 3/4', below the HOLE for the button. You need to look close to see that button hole because it is a slit, not a round hole.

When JFK was wearing the shirt, those two bullet holes lined up perfectly. That's because the throat bullet traveled through them both to get to the throat. That is to say, a bullet or bullet fragment made those two holes. (Some CTers believe that the holes were faked so as to support the SBT. Others say that the holes were made by the knife used to cut the necktie off.)

 

[John Butler]

Sandy,

Thanks for your clarification.  I think we are in agreement.  The two holes four holes comment says there our two holes on the other side. Its just that I couldnt make out the holes due to the gettyimages overlay.  No arguments from me.  

I need a higher quality photo of the color photo I posted earlier.  I couldnt find the two holes in that photo.  Then there is the business of the fbi snipping material from the back hole.  The 1993 photo did not have the snipped appearance of the other photo.  Im assuming the fbi did that early on after the assassination.  It is a mystery.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Jake Hammond]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Video is required because that's the only way to prove to others that the shirt will rise up the way you think it did.

 

I'll try to get some video then but obviously that won't upload on to here. Secondly, I must re-emphasise that It is not me who needs to ' prove to others' what happened. The images all show a heavy fold running from right to left ( apart from the blurry , cropped Altgens 5 which is the ONLY image showing Kennedy waving his right hand over to the left side and has obviously pulled the jacket tight. He wasn't in this position behind the freeway sign) across the shoulder. The null hypothesis ( not quite the right term but you know what I mean) is that the the shirt hole, the back hole and the throat wound line up, which has been demonstrated may times, and I have demonstrated to the best of my ability with a mannequin. 

 It would be of genuine benefit to this topic if anyone, Cliff, Sandy et al would like to put forward a new hypothesis. As of yet there has not been one posted. 

In the next experiment I will try to find out if sitting and having your arm raised produces a bunching in the jacket AND shirt. Also of course what the actual point of the bullet holes are in such circumstances. My father has a convertible and we have plenty of old clothes so I'll try to be as accurate as possible. If anyone has an parameters or tips for this then do voice your thoughts. 

[John Butler]

To add to the FBI snipped bullet mystery hole is this mystery concerning the hole in the tie:

Edited December 18, 2018 by John Butler

[Jake Hammond]

great picture. Thank you. 

 That hole looks very small though for a bullet, could it be anything else ?

Edited December 18, 2018 by Jake Hammond

[Jake Hammond]

Quote

There's another problem.  Is this a forgery?  Or, is other pictures of JFK's shirt a forgery?  Look at this an see if you can find a hole in the shirt just below the collar button in the left hand part of this photo.  I can't find one. 

John, the discrepancy is easily explained when you draw vertical lines down from the known data point of the makers label. On the colour image the edge of the left ( as we look at it) collar is rougly in the middle of the vertical drawn form the makers label hence you cannot see the hole. IN the right image the collar is much more open , deliberately exposing the hole, the edge sits around 20mm left of the left edge of the makers label. Use the shirt stripes as a vertical . 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Jake Hammond

[Ray Mitcham]

If you imagine  the button and the hole, lined up, as though they were buttoned, the shirt collar would be lifted between one and two inches (guesstimate). Thus the slits in the front of the shirt, would not line up with the hole shown in the back of the shirt. In the photo above, they only appear to line up as the button and hole are not fastened.

 

I wonder if in the first photo (the color one) the front of the shirt was pulled towards  the center to hide the hole in the back of the shirt. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Ray Mitcham

[Jake Hammond]

8 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

If you line up  the button and the hole, as though they were buttoned. the shirt collar would be lifted between one and two inches (guesstimate). Thus the slits in the front of the shirt, would not line up with the hole shown in the back of the shirt. In the photo above, they only appear to line up as the button and hole are not fastened.

Yes of course, so if the man were standing upright and the gun fired horizontally and the shirt was taught and flat against the mans back then the collar holes would be 2" too high. 

[Jake Hammond]

Quote

I wonder if in the first photo (the color one) the front of the shirt was pulled towards  the center to hide the hole in the back of the shirt. 

Possibly, it doesn't necessarily mean anything nefarious but it/s possible. Maybe also they didn't want to be too graphic.