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Denny Zartman

Logic seems to suggest...

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7 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. What's the alternative to someone with the authority to tell Hoover how the investigation was going to go?

Well in direct response to your opening post:

On 12/26/2018 at 6:41 AM, Denny Zartman said:

In my opinion, logic seems to suggest a conspiracy would have to have originated from J. Edgar Hoover, or from someone with the authority and ability to tell J. Edgar Hoover what the official story was going to be.

I can certainly buy that Hoover may have been directed (even though, in my own understanding, I don't see direct evidence for it, I can definitely believe he was directed or intimidated, etc) but that a conspiracy would originate from Hoover? I see many other suspects that the conspiracy would've had to originate from is all I meant.

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4 minutes ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Well in direct response to your opening post:

I can certainly buy that Hoover may have been directed (even though, in my own understanding, I don't see direct evidence for it, I can definitely believe he was directed or intimidated, etc) but that a conspiracy would originate from Hoover? I see many other suspects that the conspiracy would've had to originate from is all I meant.

We're on the same page. I don't think it originated with Hoover, either. I was trying to see if logic could tell us who had the ability to direct Hoover and the FBI immediately after the assassination and tell them that the lone assassin scenario was going to be the official story.

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6 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

We're on the same page. I don't think it originated with Hoover, either. I was trying to see if logic could tell us who had the ability to direct Hoover and the FBI immediately after the assassination and tell them that the lone assassin scenario was going to be the official story.

I understand and thanks for the clarification mate.

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15 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

Has any photographic evidence ever been found that the Mafia or others indeed had the photographic wherewithal to blackmail Hoover about his sexual orientation?

I ask this because I myself may have seen such evidence, though I certainly can't attest to its authenticity.

Many years ago there was a monthly quasi-scholarly magazine called Sexology. Articles included things like "How to Live with a Sexual Deviation," "The Problem of Prison Sex," and "How It Feels to Be a Virgin." As a college kid I used to leaf through it at newsstands, since it was right next to the girlie magazines. Anyway I remember seeing a photo in Sexology purportedly of Hoover (and it certainly looked like him) performing a sex act on some other man (which I assume would be Tolson). I have to wonder why this and any other photos have not surfaced outside of that one issue of Sexology if the photo was authentic. And if it was authentic, how or where did they get it? 

Since I'm also the only person I know of who remembers seeing the arrival of the Dallas casket in front of Bethesda on live TV (a "false memory"?), that coupled with the photo I saw of Hoover (?) in Sexology puts me in pretty select company. (Just me and myself.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ron, Lisa Pease mentions this in A Lie Too Big To Fail, pgs. 457-8.  Two men reported having seen the pictures, both men were OSS/CIA (one of the pictures described as similar to what you mention seeing).  Both were shown the picture by Angleton.

I'd read the first story somewhere before but don't think it was as detailed, wherever that was.  To summarize, "John Weitz, former OSS officer...dinner party in the fifties.  "After a conversation about Hoover... host went to another room and came back with a photograph.  It was not a good picture and was clearly taken from some distance away, but it showed two men apparently engaged in homosexual activity, the host said the men were Hoover and Tolson…"  This Lisa attributes to a 1978 book, The Real Spy World, by a Miles Copeland.  Weitz told author Anthony Summers his host was... James Angleton.

"Gordon Novel also sourced a photo of Hoover having sex with Tolson to Angleton."  "What I saw was a picture of him giving Clyde Tolson a … more than one shot... startling one was a close shot of the side of Hoovers head.  He was totally recognizable."  Novell reiterated this same story to me (Lisa) when I talked to him in Las Vegas in 2004".

She goes on to detail the Fact that Novel was CIA and that Angleton also showed the pictures to Meyer Lansky. 

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1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Ron, Lisa Pease mentions this in A Lie Too Big To Fail, pgs. 457-8.  Two men reported having seen the pictures, both men were OSS/CIA (one of the pictures described as similar to what you mention seeing).  Both were shown the picture by Angleton.

I'd read the first story somewhere before but don't think it was as detailed, wherever that was.  To summarize, "John Weitz, former OSS officer...dinner party in the fifties.  "After a conversation about Hoover... host went to another room and came back with a photograph.  It was not a good picture and was clearly taken from some distance away, but it showed two men apparently engaged in homosexual activity, the host said the men were Hoover and Tolson…"  This Lisa attributes to a 1978 book, The Real Spy World, by a Miles Copeland.  Weitz told author Anthony Summers his host was... James Angleton.

"Gordon Novel also sourced a photo of Hoover having sex with Tolson to Angleton."  "What I saw was a picture of him giving Clyde Tolson a … more than one shot... startling one was a close shot of the side of Hoovers head.  He was totally recognizable."  Novell reiterated this same story to me (Lisa) when I talked to him in Las Vegas in 2004".

She goes on to detail the Fact that Novel was CIA and that Angleton also showed the pictures to Meyer Lansky. 

Assume for the sake of argument that Angleton compromised Hoover, and in that light consider this - the FBI doc of Hoover writing to “George Bush of the CIA”, discovered by Joseph McBride. No doubt about the authenticity of that document. Again let’s assume it was in fact the future president he was writing to. Why would Hoover do that? Is there another instance of Hoover publicly identifying a CIA agent by name? I think, and have for a while now, that it was a message from Hoover to the conspirators, it’s purpose to let them know that it was a two way street and should anything happen to Hoover the conspiracy would be revealed. 

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11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

"...one was a close shot of the side of Hoovers head.  He was totally recognizable." 

Ron, thanks. That exactly describes the photo I saw.

And the Sexology issue would have been almost certainly in 1962-1964, sometime between fall and spring when I was in school.

Edit: It's conceivable that the photo was in a girlie magazine and not Sexology. As I said, I would look at both at that newsstand, and you know how memory tends to do things over a period of 50 plus years. It just seems to me it was in Sexology (more specifically in a letters-to-the-editor or questions-and-answers section), although a girlie mag, as opposed to a quasi-scholarly mag, might seem a more likely place to find such a photo. The thing is, no girlie mags at newsstands in those days were that explicit.

If it was in Sexology as I remember, old issues from that time might exist somewhere. If it was in a girlie mag, forget it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ron Ecker

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I now have an hypothesis about the photo I saw. A compromising photo of Hoover appearing in an obscure publication right around the time of the assassination ("Dear Mr. Hoover, pick up a copy of...") would have the same desired effect on Hoover as a Mac Wallace "fingerprint" from the sniper's nest would have on Lyndon Johnson. Both men would know what to do for their own good.

 

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On 1/12/2019 at 9:44 AM, Ron Ecker said:

I now have an hypothesis about the photo I saw. A compromising photo of Hoover appearing in an obscure publication right around the time of the assassination ("Dear Mr. Hoover, pick up a copy of...") would have the same desired effect on Hoover as a Mac Wallace "fingerprint" from the sniper's nest would have on Lyndon Johnson. Both men would know what to do for their own good.

 

Since this got no response pro or con, I assume it's a valid hypothesis. So I say three cheers for pornography.

 

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