Logic seems to suggest...

[John Butler]

Ron,

Good point and well said.

[B. A. Copeland]

7 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. What's the alternative to someone with the authority to tell Hoover how the investigation was going to go?

Well in direct response to your opening post:

On 12/26/2018 at 6:41 AM, Denny Zartman said:

In my opinion, logic seems to suggest a conspiracy would have to have originated from J. Edgar Hoover, or from someone with the authority and ability to tell J. Edgar Hoover what the official story was going to be.

I can certainly buy that Hoover may have been directed (even though, in my own understanding, I don't see direct evidence for it, I can definitely believe he was directed or intimidated, etc) but that a conspiracy would originate from Hoover? I see many other suspects that the conspiracy would've had to originate from is all I meant.

[Denny Zartman]

4 minutes ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Well in direct response to your opening post:

I can certainly buy that Hoover may have been directed (even though, in my own understanding, I don't see direct evidence for it, I can definitely believe he was directed or intimidated, etc) but that a conspiracy would originate from Hoover? I see many other suspects that the conspiracy would've had to originate from is all I meant.

We're on the same page. I don't think it originated with Hoover, either. I was trying to see if logic could tell us who had the ability to direct Hoover and the FBI immediately after the assassination and tell them that the lone assassin scenario was going to be the official story.

[B. A. Copeland]

6 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

We're on the same page. I don't think it originated with Hoover, either. I was trying to see if logic could tell us who had the ability to direct Hoover and the FBI immediately after the assassination and tell them that the lone assassin scenario was going to be the official story.

I understand and thanks for the clarification mate.

[Ron Bulman]

15 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

Has any photographic evidence ever been found that the Mafia or others indeed had the photographic wherewithal to blackmail Hoover about his sexual orientation?

I ask this because I myself may have seen such evidence, though I certainly can't attest to its authenticity.

Many years ago there was a monthly quasi-scholarly magazine called Sexology. Articles included things like "How to Live with a Sexual Deviation," "The Problem of Prison Sex," and "How It Feels to Be a Virgin." As a college kid I used to leaf through it at newsstands, since it was right next to the girlie magazines. Anyway I remember seeing a photo in Sexology purportedly of Hoover (and it certainly looked like him) performing a sex act on some other man (which I assume would be Tolson). I have to wonder why this and any other photos have not surfaced outside of that one issue of Sexology if the photo was authentic. And if it was authentic, how or where did they get it? 

Since I'm also the only person I know of who remembers seeing the arrival of the Dallas casket in front of Bethesda on live TV (a "false memory"?), that coupled with the photo I saw of Hoover (?) in Sexology puts me in pretty select company. (Just me and myself.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ron, Lisa Pease mentions this in A Lie Too Big To Fail, pgs. 457-8.  Two men reported having seen the pictures, both men were OSS/CIA (one of the pictures described as similar to what you mention seeing).  Both were shown the picture by Angleton.

I'd read the first story somewhere before but don't think it was as detailed, wherever that was.  To summarize, "John Weitz, former OSS officer...dinner party in the fifties.  "After a conversation about Hoover... host went to another room and came back with a photograph.  It was not a good picture and was clearly taken from some distance away, but it showed two men apparently engaged in homosexual activity, the host said the men were Hoover and Tolson…"  This Lisa attributes to a 1978 book, The Real Spy World, by a Miles Copeland.  Weitz told author Anthony Summers his host was... James Angleton.

"Gordon Novel also sourced a photo of Hoover having sex with Tolson to Angleton."  "What I saw was a picture of him giving Clyde Tolson a … more than one shot... startling one was a close shot of the side of Hoovers head.  He was totally recognizable."  Novell reiterated this same story to me (Lisa) when I talked to him in Las Vegas in 2004".

She goes on to detail the Fact that Novel was CIA and that Angleton also showed the pictures to Meyer Lansky. 

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Ron, Lisa Pease mentions this in A Lie Too Big To Fail, pgs. 457-8.  Two men reported having seen the pictures, both men were OSS/CIA (one of the pictures described as similar to what you mention seeing).  Both were shown the picture by Angleton.

I'd read the first story somewhere before but don't think it was as detailed, wherever that was.  To summarize, "John Weitz, former OSS officer...dinner party in the fifties.  "After a conversation about Hoover... host went to another room and came back with a photograph.  It was not a good picture and was clearly taken from some distance away, but it showed two men apparently engaged in homosexual activity, the host said the men were Hoover and Tolson…"  This Lisa attributes to a 1978 book, The Real Spy World, by a Miles Copeland.  Weitz told author Anthony Summers his host was... James Angleton.

"Gordon Novel also sourced a photo of Hoover having sex with Tolson to Angleton."  "What I saw was a picture of him giving Clyde Tolson a … more than one shot... startling one was a close shot of the side of Hoovers head.  He was totally recognizable."  Novell reiterated this same story to me (Lisa) when I talked to him in Las Vegas in 2004".

She goes on to detail the Fact that Novel was CIA and that Angleton also showed the pictures to Meyer Lansky. 

Assume for the sake of argument that Angleton compromised Hoover, and in that light consider this - the FBI doc of Hoover writing to “George Bush of the CIA”, discovered by Joseph McBride. No doubt about the authenticity of that document. Again let’s assume it was in fact the future president he was writing to. Why would Hoover do that? Is there another instance of Hoover publicly identifying a CIA agent by name? I think, and have for a while now, that it was a message from Hoover to the conspirators, it’s purpose to let them know that it was a two way street and should anything happen to Hoover the conspiracy would be revealed. 

[Ron Ecker]

11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

"...one was a close shot of the side of Hoovers head.  He was totally recognizable." 

Ron, thanks. That exactly describes the photo I saw.

And the Sexology issue would have been almost certainly in 1962-1964, sometime between fall and spring when I was in school.

Edit: It's conceivable that the photo was in a girlie magazine and not Sexology. As I said, I would look at both at that newsstand, and you know how memory tends to do things over a period of 50 plus years. It just seems to me it was in Sexology (more specifically in a letters-to-the-editor or questions-and-answers section), although a girlie mag, as opposed to a quasi-scholarly mag, might seem a more likely place to find such a photo. The thing is, no girlie mags at newsstands in those days were that explicit.

If it was in Sexology as I remember, old issues from that time might exist somewhere. If it was in a girlie mag, forget it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by Ron Ecker

[Ron Ecker]

I now have an hypothesis about the photo I saw. A compromising photo of Hoover appearing in an obscure publication right around the time of the assassination ("Dear Mr. Hoover, pick up a copy of...") would have the same desired effect on Hoover as a Mac Wallace "fingerprint" from the sniper's nest would have on Lyndon Johnson. Both men would know what to do for their own good.

 

[Ron Ecker]

On 1/12/2019 at 9:44 AM, Ron Ecker said:

I now have an hypothesis about the photo I saw. A compromising photo of Hoover appearing in an obscure publication right around the time of the assassination ("Dear Mr. Hoover, pick up a copy of...") would have the same desired effect on Hoover as a Mac Wallace "fingerprint" from the sniper's nest would have on Lyndon Johnson. Both men would know what to do for their own good.

 

Since this got no response pro or con, I assume it's a valid hypothesis. So I say three cheers for pornography.

 

[Denny Zartman]

21 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

Carlos Marcello ordered the hit on JFK.  The first government organization contacted was the FBI on March 4th.  On March 13 and 15 top aides to LBJ were contacted.  LBJ then passed the information to his attorney and close friend Ed Clark.  LBJ and Clark agreed to bring Cord Meyer aboard.  Cord enlisted David Morales, William Harvey and David Atlee Phillips.  The shooters were Johnny Roselli, Charles Nicoletti, Lucien Sarti,  Michael Mertz, Malcolm Wallace and two Corsican assassins.  Johnny Roselli indicated that he and his men got Kennedy from the storm drain.  Marcello eventually admitted to ordering the hit many years later before he was murdered.  Oswald is Prayer Man and was outside eating his lunch and drinking a soda from a glass bottle.  The second floor incident never happened.  

Could the mob really get into the Bethesda autopsy room? I have a difficult time believing that the mob, in making a decision to kill a US President, would make their first step going to the FBI. Do you have some historical evidence of that kind of working relationship between the mob and the FBI, where the mob felt free enough to approach the FBI for assistance when planning a major crime? And for the mob to go to the feds just to take the long way around to finally arrive back at more mob assassins doesn't seem plausible to me. From what I understand, the mob tends to keep things in the family.

I suppose that if anyone has been paying attention to my posts (unlikely), my silence on Prayer Man is conspicuous.

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 6:54 AM, Denny Zartman said:

I believe I've seen Angleton named in several books; Mary's Mosaic, Oswald And The CIA, and another one I can't recall off the top of my head that mentioned he was seen at a location possibly rummaging for evidence as he was alleged to have done in Mary's Mosaic. He certainly seems to be a suspicious individual with the means and opportunity.

Denny, Angeton's discussed at length in several books.  David J, mentioned Wilderness of Mirrors.  Then another older book is Cold Warrior.  Of course he's a deep part of David Talbot's fine book The Devil's Chessboard.  Also Jeff Morley's Ghost.  These are but a few.  There are also at least 2 or 3 relevant articles on Kennedy's and King if you search Angleton's name on the site.

I personally think he's the invisible glue on the back of the stamp, if that makes sense.  The question is, who besides and above Dulles licked the stamp.

E.G., through ONI he could have coordinated the autopsy at Bethesda as it was Navy. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Denny Zartman]

31 minutes ago, Rich Pope said:

No, I'm not saying the mob was in Bethesda.  I'm just saying they got the ball rolling on the assassination and provided two shooters.  NEVER underestimate that fury that Carlos Marcello had for the Kennedy brothers. Naïve must be your middle name.

I'm not underestimating the fury that Carlos Marcello had for the Kennedy brothers. I understand and recognize that. But I have a difficult time believing that the mob's first step in planning and executing the assassination of a president would be to go to the feds. Do you have any evidence of any other times on record where the mob went to the FBI for help in planning and executing a major crime?

[Denny Zartman]

33 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Denny, Angeton's discussed at length in several books.  David J, mentioned Wilderness of Mirrors.  Then another older book is Cold Warrior.  Of course he's a deep part of David Talbot's fine book The Devil's Chessboard.  Also Jeff Morley's Ghost.  These are but a few.  There are also at least 2 or 3 relevant articles on Kennedy's and King if you search Angleton's name on the site.

I personally think he's the invisible glue on the back of the stamp, if that makes sense.  The question is, who besides and above Dulles licked the stamp.

E.G., through ONI he could have coordinated the autopsy at Bethesda as it was Navy. 

Hi Ron,

I purchased Wilderness of Mirrors based on David's suggestion. I have only started reading it, but I'm already impressed. I've read The Devil's Chessboard, but not yet gotten Ghost or Cold Warrior.

It appears that John Newman, in the addendum to the 2008 edition of "Oswald And The CIA", used the process of elimination to determine that Angleton was the one most likely to have planted information about Oswald's supposed visit to Mexico City.

I agree with your "invisible glue" theory, and it does make sense. From my limited understanding of him, he certainly seems to fit the profile of someone who would have been a/the major cog in the assassination machine. From what I understand, things do seem to center around Angleton, Dulles, and Helms. I've read that Helms was not the type to initiate action though; apparently he was the sort that would only go through with something if it had been approved by a higher up. So your question is a good one: who would that higher up be?

[David G. Healy]

Here's a yardstick for ya, fantastic claims require fantastic evidence.... What DIA files? Cite please. And "According to records..." What records?