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Jim Root

Edwin Walker

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David Talbot argues in his book, Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years, that Walker's indoctrination program had been endorsed by General Lyman Lemnitzer. Talbot quotes a letter from Lemnitzer to Walker saying that he found his efforts "interesting and useful."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwalker.htm

I believe there is much about Walker's discharge from the U.S. Military that has a certain hollow ring to it; Yes he was definitely prosecuted for treasonous activities while Bobby was AG. but he didn't just terminate every relationship with every military person he ever knew the day he was no longer an "active" member of the US military, I still get irritated when the old story [whether true or false] about Ruby and Oswald being arrested and released before the assassination is mentioned; either it happened or it didn't......Walker mentioned this incident 20 years after it happened, and I for one, still am in the dark as to whether it did or didn't happen.

The HSCA didn't seem to address the issue conclusively.....unless it is buried in one of the 500,000 documents that have been de-classified over the last couple of years. Until then....what a pathetic situation.....

The real problem with resolving the JFK assassination is that it takes a historian, researcher and somebody with a considerable amount of time and money to wade through the wheat and chaff of doc's allegations and theories, and even if you know what happened, unless you are a high profile person like an established writer or official, you will get the media treatment, but there are some very good researchers who will, I would estimate, never give up....

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David Talbot argues in his book, Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years, that Walker's indoctrination program had been endorsed by General Lyman Lemnitzer. Talbot quotes a letter from Lemnitzer to Walker saying that he found his efforts "interesting and useful."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwalker.htm

I believe there is much about Walker's discharge from the U.S. Military that has a certain hollow ring to it; Yes he was definitely prosecuted for treasonous activities while Bobby was AG. but he didn't just terminate every relationship with every military person he ever knew the day he was no longer an "active" member of the US military, I still get irritated when the old story [whether true or false] about Ruby and Oswald being arrested and released before the assassination is mentioned; either it happened or it didn't......Walker mentioned this incident 20 years after it happened, and I for one, still am in the dark as to whether it did or didn't happen.

The HSCA didn't seem to address the issue conclusively.....unless it is buried in one of the 500,000 documents that have been de-classified over the last couple of years. Until then....what a pathetic situation.....

The real problem with resolving the JFK assassination is that it takes a historian, researcher and somebody with a considerable amount of time and money to wade through the wheat and chaff of doc's allegations and theories, and even if you know what happened, unless you are a high profile person like an established writer or official, you will get the media treatment, but there are some very good researchers who will, I would estimate, never give up....David Talbot is one of them

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David Talbot argues in his book, Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years, that Walker's indoctrination program had been endorsed by General Lyman Lemnitzer. Talbot quotes a letter from Lemnitzer to Walker saying that he found his efforts "interesting and useful."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwalker.htm

I believe there is much about Walker's discharge from the U.S. Military that has a certain hollow ring to it; Yes he was definitely prosecuted for treasonous activities while Bobby was AG. but he didn't just terminate every relationship with every military person he ever knew the day he was no longer an "active" member of the US military, I still get irritated when the old story [whether true or false] about Ruby and Oswald being arrested and released before the assassination is mentioned; either it happened or it didn't......Walker mentioned this incident 20 years after it happened, and I for one, still am in the dark as to whether it did or didn't happen.

The HSCA didn't seem to address the issue conclusively.....unless it is buried in one of the 500,000 documents that have been de-classified over the last couple of years. Until then....what a pathetic situation.....

The real problem with resolving the JFK assassination is that it takes a historian, researcher and somebody with a considerable amount of time and money to wade through the wheat and chaff of doc's allegations and theories, and even if you know what happened, unless you are a high profile person like an established writer or official, you will get the media treatment, but there are some very good researchers who will, I would estimate, never give up....David Talbot is one of them

I wonder if there will be a second edition of "Brothers."

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John

Thank you for the Spartacus attachment.

One thing you left out about Walker's career is that between Korea and Arkansas was the First Straits of Taiwan incident. Walker was the lead US military advisor sent to Taiwan. He was selected for that position by Maxwell Taylor who would also hand pick Walker for the Arkansas assignment.

You do clearly point out that Walker took command of the 24th Infantry Div. in October of 1959......at the same time Oswald traveled to Helsinki on his way to the Soviet Union. Did Oswald get some help on his way to Helsinki? Oswald did show up at the Soviet Embassy, Itourist vouchers in hand as was suggested by Ambassador Hickerson in a classified note to the State Department sent exactly one day before Oswald arrived in Helsinki.

Is it possible that Walker could have passed information to Oswlad? With the help of Antti we have shown that it would have been possible for Oswald to have traveled to Hamburg, Germany on his way to Helsinki. Via this route he would have taken the same plane that Walker could have used to get to Augburg and Oswald would have arrived in Helsinki on the same airplane that the London to Helsinki passengers would have arrived via Stocholm. Both the Warren Commission and the HSCA are mum on how Oswlad traveled to Helsinki. Is it logical to suggest that someone else was on the same flight whose name would not only have been recognizable but would have cast a very dark. sinister shadow over the assassination story as we know it? Remember that Walker was hand picked by Taylor, his former mentor at West Point on two previous occassions for the most sensitive of jobs. I have also identified two assignments that Walker did that were of special importance to Assit. Sec. Of War John J. McCloy during WWII. Walker was well connected and was repeatedly called upon to provide assissitance for the most sensitve jobs.

If Walker was the man who provided information to Oswald would that then perhaps provide a motive for Oswald to later attempt to assassinate Walker? If Walker had provided information to a "patsy" Oswald who was unknowingly being sent to the Soviet Union to confirm or provide information about the U-2 is it unreasonable that when Oswald began a process of returning to the US Walker would have to be discredited? The timming of the Overseas Weekly article that led to Walkers resignation does in fact coincide quite well with Oswald's first attempt to return to the United States. Remember that Walker was twice selected by Maxwell Taylor for two of the most sensitive jobs Taylor faced as Chief of Staff of the Army (Taiwan and Arkansas). Is it possible that Taylor turned to his old friend Walker to provide information to Oswald? If so Oswald's "defection" would have been a very special mission. Perhaps a mission instituted by John J. McCloy who did not want the Limited Test Ban Treaty signed at the Paris Summit in 1960 (note of the meeting of arms negotiators from Nov, 1959) Is it ironique that the Paris Summit was sabotaged with the downing of the first U-2 flight since Oswald had defected? Could this have been a "mission" so important that Oswald's role could never be acknowledged?

The Warren Commission is quick to point out and goes to great lengths to do prove that Oswald was very frugal with his money. But the one flaw in this frugality is that Oswald, when traveling to Russia, went from France to England before going to Helsinki. Oswald could have gone, with less expense, to Helsinki from Paris. If Oswald would have done this his flight would have left Paris and traveled to Hamburg then to Stockholm and on to Helsinki. This would have still placed Oswald on one of the two flights that he had to have arrived on in Helsinki, only he would have arrived before the information from Ambassador Hickerson would have been available to him! Why did the FRUGAL Oswald spend extra money traveling to England before going to Helsinki? I doubt if it was to site see. By the way, according to all the accounts that I can find, John B. Hurt was in France at the time that Oswald arrived in La Harve.

I do not believe that these events are random coincidences. The same players reappear in 1963.

Thoughts?

Jim Root

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John

Thank you for the Spartacus attachment.

One thing you left out about Walker's career is that between Korea and Arkansas was the First Straits of Taiwan incident. Walker was the lead US military advisor sent to Taiwan. He was selected for that position by Maxwell Taylor who would also hand pick Walker for the Arkansas assignment.

You do clearly point out that Walker took command of the 24th Infantry Div. in October of 1959......at the same time Oswald traveled to Helsinki on his way to the Soviet Union. Did Oswald get some help on his way to Helsinki? Oswald did show up at the Soviet Embassy, Itourist vouchers in hand as was suggested by Ambassador Hickerson in a classified note to the State Department sent exactly one day before Oswald arrived in Helsinki.

Is it possible that Walker could have passed information to Oswlad? With the help of Antti we have shown that it would have been possible for Oswald to have traveled to Hamburg, Germany on his way to Helsinki. Via this route he would have taken the same plane that Walker could have used to get to Augburg and Oswald would have arrived in Helsinki on the same airplane that the London to Helsinki passengers would have arrived via Stocholm. Both the Warren Commission and the HSCA are mum on how Oswlad traveled to Helsinki. Is it logical to suggest that someone else was on the same flight whose name would not only have been recognizable but would have cast a very dark. sinister shadow over the assassination story as we know it? Remember that Walker was hand picked by Taylor, his former mentor at West Point on two previous occassions for the most sensitive of jobs. I have also identified two assignments that Walker did that were of special importance to Assit. Sec. Of War John J. McCloy during WWII. Walker was well connected and was repeatedly called upon to provide assissitance for the most sensitve jobs.

If Walker was the man who provided information to Oswald would that then perhaps provide a motive for Oswald to later attempt to assassinate Walker? If Walker had provided information to a "patsy" Oswald who was unknowingly being sent to the Soviet Union to confirm or provide information about the U-2 is it unreasonable that when Oswald began a process of returning to the US Walker would have to be discredited? The timming of the Overseas Weekly article that led to Walkers resignation does in fact coincide quite well with Oswald's first attempt to return to the United States. Remember that Walker was twice selected by Maxwell Taylor for two of the most sensitive jobs Taylor faced as Chief of Staff of the Army (Taiwan and Arkansas). Is it possible that Taylor turned to his old friend Walker to provide information to Oswald? If so Oswald's "defection" would have been a very special mission. Perhaps a mission instituted by John J. McCloy who did not want the Limited Test Ban Treaty signed at the Paris Summit in 1960 (note of the meeting of arms negotiators from Nov, 1959) Is it ironique that the Paris Summit was sabotaged with the downing of the first U-2 flight since Oswald had defected? Could this have been a "mission" so important that Oswald's role could never be acknowledged?

The Warren Commission is quick to point out and goes to great lengths to do prove that Oswald was very frugal with his money. But the one flaw in this frugality is that Oswald, when traveling to Russia, went from France to England before going to Helsinki. Oswald could have gone, with less expense, to Helsinki from Paris. If Oswald would have done this his flight would have left Paris and traveled to Hamburg then to Stockholm and on to Helsinki. This would have still placed Oswald on one of the two flights that he had to have arrived on in Helsinki, only he would have arrived before the information from Ambassador Hickerson would have been available to him! Why did the FRUGAL Oswald spend extra money traveling to England before going to Helsinki? I doubt if it was to site see. By the way, according to all the accounts that I can find, John B. Hurt was in France at the time that Oswald arrived in La Harve.

I do not believe that these events are random coincidences. The same players reappear in 1963.

Thoughts?

Jim Root

I do not believe that these events are random coincidences. The same players reappear in 1963.

Thoughts?

Jim Root

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13150

At this point, I'm surprised that Mr. Purvis, with all his expertise regarding Carcano rifles, hasn't addressed my questions in this thread. I would think that, with hios inquisitive mind, he would've discovered other possible sources for the short rifle found in the TSBD, sources which might explain why LHO would leave a rifle there that would incriminate himself by its serial number, yet NOT be the exact rifle--with the shortened barrel--shipped to Hidell by Klein's. Surely even Mr. Purvis has a theory on how--and why--this occurred

"Specific Questions" will receive Specific Answers. Even though they be pure speculation.

Which of course fits in with much of this forum!

1. Shooting (at) of General Walker:

a. Walker was a part of the overall scenario and it was purely a "diversionary" tactic.

b. Walker was found to be a "counter-intellgence" operative and his demise was necessitated.

c. Shooting of Walker was a "trial" run for LHO to verify that he could in fact take directives and thereafter, for absolutely no true motive, shoot someone.

d. Shooting of Walker was to be the "key" element in the plan to get LHO accepted into Cuba in order to gain access to his (original) true target.

e. Shooting of Walker was necessitated as he presented a completely "disruptive" influence which could have created changes in the Presidential visit plan. (ie; route change/cancellation of motorcade; extremely tighter security/quieten down the right-wing, etc; etc;.)

f. Shooting of Walker was done in order to persuade those such as Michael Paine, etc; that he (LHO) was against the "Right-Wing" and therefore no threat to JFK and his visit. Thusly diverting potential attention away from any planned assassination plot.

g. Shooting of Walker was necessitated as he had gotten wind/heard rumors of the planned assassination plot.

h. Shooting of Walker was necessitated due to:___________________(fill in the blank).*

*Although any of the above are potentially "partial" reason's for the shot at Walker, the best PRIMARY reason that I can think of, has yet to be presented.

Understanding of the Walker shooting and it's reason(s) is absolutly essential in the ultimate understanding of the primary conspiracy in which LHO was involved.

A Conspiracy that, whatever it's original intended purpose, ended with the shooting of JFK in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63, by a "Lone Gunman" shooting from the sixth floor of the TSDB with the found Carcano (Short Rifle) that was located there.

===============================================================================

Just something to think about. But it might explain how Walker "knew" that it was LHO who fired in his direction...something that, IMHO, has never been adequately explained.

[imagine the conversation went something like: "Why, with that rifle you couldn't hit me from right across the street!" And of course, he didn't, either.]

================================================================================

Imagine the conversation went something like: "Who put that crazy SOB up to shooting at me?"

===============================================================================

P.S. Anyone unfamiliar with Carcano ammunition could, and would most probably, initially confuse old Italian Carcano ammo as being "steel jacketed" as the cupro-nickle jacket almost favors some form of stainless steel.

Which of couse also makes it a harder jacket which is far less prone to severe deformation upon impact.

However, since the WCC Carcano ammo is a "pure" copper jacket, only someone who is completely color blind would confuse it with a "steel jacketed" bullet.

As well as the fact that the WCC bullet is generally far more lethal as it's soft copper jacket allows for severe deformation upon striking of any hard substance such as bone, etc;.

===============================================================================

And! Since Jim Root has more or less "specialized" in the Walker event, one should possible attempt to place all that knowledge in a single location as well.

One just may accidentally learning something new!

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Some comments on several of the items from this thread ....

It disappoints me that so many people are unwilling to deal with the Walker incident. It is as if researchers have closed the door on this topic in a misguided belief that if they accept the incident as real they will be embracing a part of the Warren Report.

Needless to say I have embraced it as true but feel that Walker, himself, is a window into a world of mirrors.

In most debates that I involve myself in on the subject of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, I find they are usually ended when the person across from me gets to the point of saying that the atempted assassination of Walker by Oswald cannot be proved or there is no evidence. If anything in this case had been "proved" we would not be here attempting to prove or disprove something!

From Epstein: The "Neutron Activation Analysis done in 1977 (by the HSCA) exactly matched the metallic elements found in the bullet that was recovered in Walker's home to the batch of Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition used in Oswald's rifle in the assassination of Kennedy.... The composition of traces from the bullet and fragments were thus compared to that of the unfired bullet found in the chamber of the Mannlicher-Carcano and found to exactly match."

"On April 10, 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to assassinate General Edwin Walker, a right-wing leader in Dallas with a high-powered rifle, after aborting a previous attempt on April 5th. ...

I've always felt that the attempt on Walker was nothing but a publicity stunt. This works with or without Oswald's involvement ... the whereabouts and travels of the rifle remain a mystery for much of the time... and I'm not convinced it was ever in Oswald's hands.
Edwin Walker's event was a put-on to help frame up the patsy. ... It looks more like a set up than an actual murder attempt. ....
... Believing that he may, in fact, be set up as a fall guy for the assassination because of his association with Oswald or because he knows (because of contact with Oswald) that Oswald is an agent of some sort, Walker is in fear for his own life. Walker recognizes that his work within the "right wing" will make him a suspect in the assassination conspiracy investigation. In panic he makes contact with a German newspaper that prints, based on an interview with General Walker, a story about Oswald shooting at Walker. ... To date, most conspiracy researchers do not want to accept any possible senario that suggests that Oswald shot at Walker. Perhaps we cannot see the forrest for the trees.
Two new tidbits of information that I have heard, seen or read in the past 72 hours while visiting the 6th Floor Museum.

1. The bullet recovered from Walker's home was called "steel" jacketed in the Walker incident police report. The bullets used in the Kennedy assassination were Copper.

2. The angle from which the bullet seems to have entered Walker's home does not appear to have been a straight shot: Window, past Walker, into wall directly accross from window. Instead you have window, Walker, then into a wall that is adjacent to the exterior wall where the window was. This means the angle from which the shot was taken was much more difficult that what I had previously thought.

I had the opportunity to see some news reel movies of the site taken the night of and the next day as the Walker incident happened (April 10 and 11, 1963). And yes Walker did show his wounds to the camaras the day after the incident occured.

Working strictly from memory, it has always amazed me that the dual arguments have been put forth - often by the same people - that NAA provided an "exact match" to the MC ammo used in the assassination (although I think the words used were along the lines of "consistent with"), and that the same tests found that there was a wide disparity not only among the bullets of a particular batch of MC bullets, but even within a single bullet.

The wonderful duality here is that "inconsistency proves consistency." Hal Weisberg successfully sued for the release of the actual NAA tests and found that the measurements between the various samples were anything but "identical," hence the rise of the "explanation" of the inconsistency of composition. "They were different, which proves they were the same." Like DNA evidence where only "some" of the strands matched, but were "consistent with" a curly-haired man, such as the defendant.

That said, in considering the evidence of the bullet used in the Walker shooting as either "steel-jacketed" or "copper-jacketed," we must consider the evidence in the Tippit case as perhaps instructive. In this, we find a mismatch of shells and slugs, there being three (3) Winchester-Western slugs and one (1) Remington-Peters slug (only one of which was turned over to the FBI for several months), "coupled" with two (2) Winchester shells, and two (2) Remington shells.

We won't delve into the questions about markings on the shells found at the scene and all of that, but merely point out that evidence was handled cavalierly at best. See Cortlandt Cunningham testimony at 3H473 et seq., particularly his statement that

... it is my understanding the first bullet was turned over to the FBI office in Dallas by the Dallas Police Department. They reportedly said this was the only bullet that was recovered, or that they had. Later at the request of this Commission, we went back to the Dallas Police Department and found in their files that they actually had three other bullets.

If DPD didn't know what it had in terms of evidence in the murder of "one of their own" well enough to keep track of it, with what certainty can we state that anyone knew whether the bullet considered as "Walker evidence" was in fact the actual bullet that was fired at Turtle Creek? The officer who originally identified it at the scene held it in his hand, not looking at a photo; he was not just a traffic cop who happened to be driving by, but a trained investigator: can it be said that he "mistook" copper for steel? He was not asked to identify it for the record, so its pedigree is questionable at best.

Even if we stipulate that the bullet was fired from the C2766 rifle, who here - or anywhere - can put Lee Oswald behind it squeezing the trigger? These days - and in those, too - notables from around town are quoted and quizzed endlessly in the news, but rarely if ever does anyone refer to "Mavericks owner Mark Cuban, who lives at 1234 Anystreet," or to Ross Perot or Tom Hicks or Jerry Jones, any more than articles of the time were likely to have said "General Walker of 4011 Turtle Creek ...." How did Oswald supposedly even know where Walker lived?

If it was a setup of some sort, there was no actual need to have Oswald pulling the trigger, only a gun that could be associated with him. Given that there's some speculation that he might've been involved with the Senator Thomas Dodd investigation into mail-order weaponry, he was probably reporting to someone if so (not directly to Dodd), and may have given the rifle over to someone. Even still, until after November 22, it was a completely unrelated "crime" in which the evidence didn't match; afterward, it seems to have. (I'm recalling that the original report claimed a steel-jacketed, .30+ cal ammo, no? Tight fit in a .223 Carcano if so.)

The possibility of Walker (or one of his cohorts) alerting the German press to the "assassination attempt" against him "by Oswald" would certainly have taken some of the edge off of any perception of the right wing having been behind Kennedy's assassination, for it would make little sense that the Oswald would attempt to kill both the "leftist" President as well as his adversaries on the right: talk about biting the hand that feeds you! "See? He tried to kill me, too, which proves me and my people weren't behind it." QED.

As has been pointed out before over the years, JFK and Walker were political enemies and thus it is very unlikely that the same assassin would try to kill them both. It astonishes me that any JFK assassination researcher places the least bit of credibility in the ridiculous testimony of Marina Oswald. Didn't she claim that Lee had thrown the rifle in some bushes, to avoid being seen walking back home with it? Okay....he must have had to retrieve the rifle at some point, so wasn't he worried about carrying it in public then? Why didn't he just disassemble it and do his famous curtain rods bit? But then again, we must accept that the mannicher carcano did indeed belong to Oswald in order to begin to believe this story. I don't think it has been proven at all that the rifle did belong to Oswald, and I certainly don't place any credence in the fanciful and forced testimony of his understandably frightened wife.
As someone brought up in the Soviet Union, where people disappeared to the sounds of footsteps in the night and filled with anti-American propaganda that painted the USA with the same brush as we painted the USSR (albeit with greater justification), how would this twenty-something girl who spoke only broken English know that the FBI was any different than the KGB? Was she not spirited away "for her own protection" when her husband was "hurt," held incommunicado in accomodations that were certainly better than Lubyanka, but every bit short of torture as intimidating as a brief stay there? Federal agents taking custody of you are, when all is said and done, federal agents taking custody of you. Wherein lies the difference in this young girl's mind?

If she were more aware of her surroundings, she'd have known that she couldn't have been compelled to give any evidence against her husband; instead, she was advised of the benefit of "cooperating" with the investigation (shades of Mother Russia! It really is no different here, just like they told us back home!). Did she think she could return home to a ticker-tape parade after defecting to the USA? If she were deported (as the FBI intimated ... and one hardly imagines J. Edgar Hoover being soft on "the little Communist bitch" and being overly concerned about her rights), where exactly would she go? As the "wife of the assassin," who could she look to to support her if she were sent home?

I have to agree about being able to put any credence on the "fanciful and forced testimony of his understandably frightened wife. (It's a nicely alliterate turn of phrase, too!)

All in all, while I agree that there is "something" to the Walker shooting, I don't necessarily agree that it had anything to do with Lee Oswald until long after the fact, when it became "convenient" to deflect attention and suspicion away from the "Radical Right," of which Walker was a member, if only unofficially. Given DPD's questionable handling of evidence and the many members of the force who were either supporters or members of right-wing organizations, it isn't entirely inconceivable that "proof" was "manufactured" in the course of collecting evidence in the assassination investigation.

...One just may accidentally learning something new!
Once in a while, you can get shown the light ...!

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notables from around town are quoted and quizzed endlessly in the news, but rarely if ever does anyone refer to "Mavericks owner Mark Cuban, who lives at 1234 Anystreet," or to Ross Perot or Tom Hicks or Jerry Jones, any more than articles of the time were likely to have said "General Walker of 4011 Turtle Creek ...." How did Oswald supposedly even know where Walker lived?

Actually Duke, reading through old papers, it is apparent that addresses were routinely added for those under discussion in the news. Then there is the white pages... or yellow pages if his printing business was done from his residence. Not a major issue, in my mind at least.

Even still, until after November 22, it was a completely unrelated "crime" in which the evidence didn't match; afterward, it seems to have. (I'm recalling that the original report claimed a steel-jacketed, .30+ cal ammo, no? Tight fit in a .223 Carcano if so.)

Afterwards, they also tried to fix the problem of "not related" by claiming Oswald had been arrested, but released on orders of RFK. This seems to be an adaption of an actual event from Sept, '63 involving a leftist in another Texas city under both federal and state investigation.

The possibility of Walker (or one of his cohorts) alerting the German press to the "assassination attempt" against him "by Oswald" would certainly have taken some of the edge off of any perception of the right wing having been behind Kennedy's assassination

The friendly German press entered the picture for one reason: the likes of the DMN and other even more r-w publications knew they risked libel action if they printed an allegation that RFK got Oswald released for the Walker shooting (and thereby bore some responsibility for the assassination). Especially since there was not a scintilla of evidence to back it up. But -- they could not be sued for merely reprinting what had been published already in Germany.

As someone brought up in the Soviet Union, where people disappeared to the sounds of footsteps in the night

If such ever touched the life of Marina, I'm sure it would have made its way into "Marina & Lee" and/or "Oswald's Tale".

And just who was Marina's father? Why was that such a big family secret?

Some people have a way of cracking jokes to subtly let you know that they know or strongly suspect they know - some special piece of knowledge.

George DeM was such a person and I cite his "joke" about Oswald taking a potshot at Walker as a classic example. In a similar vein, DeM used to "joke" about how much June looked like Khrushchev. Niki was visiting the city (from memory, Leningrad) where Marina was conceived, at around the time of the conception. In those days, he actually cut a dashing figure, and had the rep of being a ladies' man...

Marina was smart... as indicated by her occupation. Whatever the case, there is more to her than doe-eyed innocent being threatened by either Communism and its KGB enforcers, or the Corporate Socialist State and its array of government and private enforcers.

Edited by Greg Parker

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Some comments on several of the items from this thread ....
It disappoints me that so many people are unwilling to deal with the Walker incident. It is as if researchers have closed the door on this topic in a misguided belief that if they accept the incident as real they will be embracing a part of the Warren Report.

Needless to say I have embraced it as true but feel that Walker, himself, is a window into a world of mirrors.

In most debates that I involve myself in on the subject of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, I find they are usually ended when the person across from me gets to the point of saying that the atempted assassination of Walker by Oswald cannot be proved or there is no evidence. If anything in this case had been "proved" we would not be here attempting to prove or disprove something!

From Epstein: The "Neutron Activation Analysis done in 1977 (by the HSCA) exactly matched the metallic elements found in the bullet that was recovered in Walker's home to the batch of Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition used in Oswald's rifle in the assassination of Kennedy.... The composition of traces from the bullet and fragments were thus compared to that of the unfired bullet found in the chamber of the Mannlicher-Carcano and found to exactly match."

"On April 10, 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to assassinate General Edwin Walker, a right-wing leader in Dallas with a high-powered rifle, after aborting a previous attempt on April 5th. ...

I've always felt that the attempt on Walker was nothing but a publicity stunt. This works with or without Oswald's involvement ... the whereabouts and travels of the rifle remain a mystery for much of the time... and I'm not convinced it was ever in Oswald's hands.
Edwin Walker's event was a put-on to help frame up the patsy. ... It looks more like a set up than an actual murder attempt. ....
... Believing that he may, in fact, be set up as a fall guy for the assassination because of his association with Oswald or because he knows (because of contact with Oswald) that Oswald is an agent of some sort, Walker is in fear for his own life. Walker recognizes that his work within the "right wing" will make him a suspect in the assassination conspiracy investigation. In panic he makes contact with a German newspaper that prints, based on an interview with General Walker, a story about Oswald shooting at Walker. ... To date, most conspiracy researchers do not want to accept any possible senario that suggests that Oswald shot at Walker. Perhaps we cannot see the forrest for the trees.
Two new tidbits of information that I have heard, seen or read in the past 72 hours while visiting the 6th Floor Museum.

1. The bullet recovered from Walker's home was called "steel" jacketed in the Walker incident police report. The bullets used in the Kennedy assassination were Copper.

2. The angle from which the bullet seems to have entered Walker's home does not appear to have been a straight shot: Window, past Walker, into wall directly accross from window. Instead you have window, Walker, then into a wall that is adjacent to the exterior wall where the window was. This means the angle from which the shot was taken was much more difficult that what I had previously thought.

I had the opportunity to see some news reel movies of the site taken the night of and the next day as the Walker incident happened (April 10 and 11, 1963). And yes Walker did show his wounds to the camaras the day after the incident occured.

Working strictly from memory, it has always amazed me that the dual arguments have been put forth - often by the same people - that NAA provided an "exact match" to the MC ammo used in the assassination (although I think the words used were along the lines of "consistent with"), and that the same tests found that there was a wide disparity not only among the bullets of a particular batch of MC bullets, but even within a single bullet.

The wonderful duality here is that "inconsistency proves consistency." Hal Weisberg successfully sued for the release of the actual NAA tests and found that the measurements between the various samples were anything but "identical," hence the rise of the "explanation" of the inconsistency of composition. "They were different, which proves they were the same." Like DNA evidence where only "some" of the strands matched, but were "consistent with" a curly-haired man, such as the defendant.

That said, in considering the evidence of the bullet used in the Walker shooting as either "steel-jacketed" or "copper-jacketed," we must consider the evidence in the Tippit case as perhaps instructive. In this, we find a mismatch of shells and slugs, there being three (3) Winchester-Western slugs and one (1) Remington-Peters slug (only one of which was turned over to the FBI for several months), "coupled" with two (2) Winchester shells, and two (2) Remington shells.

We won't delve into the questions about markings on the shells found at the scene and all of that, but merely point out that evidence was handled cavalierly at best. See Cortlandt Cunningham testimony at 3H473 et seq., particularly his statement that

... it is my understanding the first bullet was turned over to the FBI office in Dallas by the Dallas Police Department. They reportedly said this was the only bullet that was recovered, or that they had. Later at the request of this Commission, we went back to the Dallas Police Department and found in their files that they actually had three other bullets.

If DPD didn't know what it had in terms of evidence in the murder of "one of their own" well enough to keep track of it, with what certainty can we state that anyone knew whether the bullet considered as "Walker evidence" was in fact the actual bullet that was fired at Turtle Creek? The officer who originally identified it at the scene held it in his hand, not looking at a photo; he was not just a traffic cop who happened to be driving by, but a trained investigator: can it be said that he "mistook" copper for steel? He was not asked to identify it for the record, so its pedigree is questionable at best.

Even if we stipulate that the bullet was fired from the C2766 rifle, who here - or anywhere - can put Lee Oswald behind it squeezing the trigger? These days - and in those, too - notables from around town are quoted and quizzed endlessly in the news, but rarely if ever does anyone refer to "Mavericks owner Mark Cuban, who lives at 1234 Anystreet," or to Ross Perot or Tom Hicks or Jerry Jones, any more than articles of the time were likely to have said "General Walker of 4011 Turtle Creek ...." How did Oswald supposedly even know where Walker lived?

If it was a setup of some sort, there was no actual need to have Oswald pulling the trigger, only a gun that could be associated with him. Given that there's some speculation that he might've been involved with the Senator Thomas Dodd investigation into mail-order weaponry, he was probably reporting to someone if so (not directly to Dodd), and may have given the rifle over to someone. Even still, until after November 22, it was a completely unrelated "crime" in which the evidence didn't match; afterward, it seems to have. (I'm recalling that the original report claimed a steel-jacketed, .30+ cal ammo, no? Tight fit in a .223 Carcano if so.)

The possibility of Walker (or one of his cohorts) alerting the German press to the "assassination attempt" against him "by Oswald" would certainly have taken some of the edge off of any perception of the right wing having been behind Kennedy's assassination, for it would make little sense that the Oswald would attempt to kill both the "leftist" President as well as his adversaries on the right: talk about biting the hand that feeds you! "See? He tried to kill me, too, which proves me and my people weren't behind it." QED.

As has been pointed out before over the years, JFK and Walker were political enemies and thus it is very unlikely that the same assassin would try to kill them both. It astonishes me that any JFK assassination researcher places the least bit of credibility in the ridiculous testimony of Marina Oswald. Didn't she claim that Lee had thrown the rifle in some bushes, to avoid being seen walking back home with it? Okay....he must have had to retrieve the rifle at some point, so wasn't he worried about carrying it in public then? Why didn't he just disassemble it and do his famous curtain rods bit? But then again, we must accept that the mannicher carcano did indeed belong to Oswald in order to begin to believe this story. I don't think it has been proven at all that the rifle did belong to Oswald, and I certainly don't place any credence in the fanciful and forced testimony of his understandably frightened wife.
As someone brought up in the Soviet Union, where people disappeared to the sounds of footsteps in the night and filled with anti-American propaganda that painted the USA with the same brush as we painted the USSR (albeit with greater justification), how would this twenty-something girl who spoke only broken English know that the FBI was any different than the KGB? Was she not spirited away "for her own protection" when her husband was "hurt," held incommunicado in accomodations that were certainly better than Lubyanka, but every bit short of torture as intimidating as a brief stay there? Federal agents taking custody of you are, when all is said and done, federal agents taking custody of you. Wherein lies the difference in this young girl's mind?

If she were more aware of her surroundings, she'd have known that she couldn't have been compelled to give any evidence against her husband; instead, she was advised of the benefit of "cooperating" with the investigation (shades of Mother Russia! It really is no different here, just like they told us back home!). Did she think she could return home to a ticker-tape parade after defecting to the USA? If she were deported (as the FBI intimated ... and one hardly imagines J. Edgar Hoover being soft on "the little Communist bitch" and being overly concerned about her rights), where exactly would she go? As the "wife of the assassin," who could she look to to support her if she were sent home?

I have to agree about being able to put any credence on the "fanciful and forced testimony of his understandably frightened wife. (It's a nicely alliterate turn of phrase, too!)

All in all, while I agree that there is "something" to the Walker shooting, I don't necessarily agree that it had anything to do with Lee Oswald until long after the fact, when it became "convenient" to deflect attention and suspicion away from the "Radical Right," of which Walker was a member, if only unofficially. Given DPD's questionable handling of evidence and the many members of the force who were either supporters or members of right-wing organizations, it isn't entirely inconceivable that "proof" was "manufactured" in the course of collecting evidence in the assassination investigation.

...One just may accidentally learning something new!
Once in a while, you can get shown the light ...!

If DPD didn't know what it had in terms of evidence in the murder of "one of their own" well enough to keep track of it, with what certainty can we state that anyone knew whether the bullet considered as "Walker evidence" was in fact the actual bullet that was fired at Turtle Creek? The officer who originally identified it at the scene held it in his hand, not looking at a photo; he was not just a traffic cop who happened to be driving by, but a trained investigator: can it be said that he "mistook" copper for steel? He was not asked to identify it for the record, so its pedigree is questionable at best.

What we see presented by the WC as being the "Walker" bullet is most assuredly, without any question, a copper jacketed bullet.

Therefore, for someone to erroneously state that it was a "steel jacketed" bullet would mean that the person was completely ignorant of metalurgy; color blind; or at minimum "color-dumb".

And, with their record of manipulation of evidence, the FBI, to include the DPD, absolutely can not be trusted to have presented us with the actual bullet recovered from the Walker shooting.

Even if we stipulate that the bullet was fired from the C2766 rifle, who here - or anywhere - can put Lee Oswald behind it squeezing the trigger?

Correct!

And, even though LHO purportedly told Marina that he was the one who shot at Walker, the simple fact remains that his participation in this event could have ranged from having been the one who actually took the shot; to being present with another party who actually did the shooting;, to not even being there and attempting to impress by claiming responsibility.

With that stated, I nevertheless believe that LHO was directly involved in the shooting attempt on Walker.

Either as the actual shooter, or as an accomplice who accompanied the actual shooter.

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...reading through old papers, it is apparent that addresses were routinely added for those under discussion in the news. Then there is the white pages... or yellow pages if his printing business was done from his residence. Not a major issue, in my mind at least. (Greg Parker)

Greg,

You are right, addresses were regularly given in newspaper stories of the day. Also, given this image below, it wouldn't have been too difficult to figure out where the General lived. :rolleyes:

James

Edited by James Richards

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...reading through old papers, it is apparent that addresses were routinely added for those under discussion in the news. Then there is the white pages... or yellow pages if his printing business was done from his residence. Not a major issue, in my mind at least. (Greg Parker)

Greg,

You are right, addresses were regularly given in newspaper stories of the day. Also, given this image below, it wouldn't have been too difficult to figure out where the General lived. :ph34r:

James

:rolleyes:

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Dick Russell includes some interesting information about Edwin Walker in this article for High Times Magazine (August 1996)

After the October 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis brought the USA and USSR to the brink of nuclear war, Kennedy's agreement with the Soviets officially barred further U.S. attempts to overthrow Castro or invade Cuba, and U.S.-Soviet relations began to thaw. Even though the CIA continued to plot Castro's assassination, the Kennedy Administration quietly began seeking a rapprochement with Cuba, says Escalante. But before long, wind of the President's efforts got to the CIA and its Miami-based Cuban-exile minions.

Exile militant Felipe Vidal Santiago, arrested on a 1964 sabotage mission into Cuba, told his captors that in Washington, D.C. in December 1962 he'd met with a lawyer/lobbyist connected to a "Citizen's Committee to Free Cuba." This lawyer informed Vidal Santiago of a conversation he'd had with Republican Henry Cabot Lodge, soon to be U.S. ambassador to South Vietnam, who said he'd heard from Kennedy aide Walt Rostow of "a plan to open a dialogue with Cuba."

"Vidal told us he was very surprised," says Escalante. In fact Vidal, infuriated and betrayed, had alerted his exile cohorts, as well as a CIA contact, Colonel William Bishop. "It was almost like a bomb, an intentional message against Kennedy." Vidal was also an information conduit for General Edwin Walker, the ultra-right Texan paramilitary leader at whom Oswald had allegedly taken a shot in April 1963. And FBI files call Vidal a "very close friend" of Miami mobster John Martino, who intimated to family and associates that he had foreknowledge of the JFK assassination...

Felipe Vidal Santiago told Cuban intelligence that on the weekend before the assassination, he was invited to a meeting in Dallas by the CIA's Colonel William Bishop. "It was supposed to be a meeting with a few wealthy people to talk about financing anti-Castro operations," says Escalante. Bishop left on his own "for interviews" numerous times during their stay in Dallas. After approximately four days they returned to Miami.

Not long before his death in 1993, Colonel Bishop confirmed to this writer that he'd had knowledge of the JFK plot. The Cubans indicate that the Vidal-Bishop Dallas trip concerned plans for re-taking the island once Castro's people had been implicated in the assassination.

Escalante surmises: "Oswald was an intelligence agent of the U.S.-CIA, FBI, military, or all of these, we don't know. He was manipulated, told he was penetrating a group of Cuban agents that wanted to kill Kennedy. But from the very beginning, he was to be the element to blame Cuba."

"Not less than 15 persons took part in the assassination," Escalante theorizes. "At the same time, knowing a little about CIA operations, we see how they used the principle of decentralized operations-independent parties with a specific role, to guarantee compartmentalization and to keep it simple."

The Nassau gathering marked the inception of what is anticipated will be an ongoing exchange between Cuban and U.S. researchers into the assassination. The hope is that access to Cuban documentation might be provided in the future-such as Tony Cuesta's written "declaration." The fact that former Cuban intelligence officials are willing to share their knowledge signifies a momentous watershed in the ongoing effort to unravel the haunting mystery of who really killed JFK.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwalker.htm

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David Talbot argues in his book, Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years, that Walker's indoctrination program had been endorsed by General Lyman Lemnitzer. Talbot quotes a letter from Lemnitzer to Walker saying that he found his efforts "interesting and useful."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwalker.htm

I believe there is much about Walker's discharge from the U.S. Military that has a certain hollow ring to it; Yes he was definitely prosecuted for treasonous activities while Bobby was AG. but he didn't just terminate every relationship with every military person he ever knew the day he was no longer an "active" member of the US military, I still get irritated when the old story [whether true or false] about Ruby and Oswald being arrested and released before the assassination is mentioned; either it happened or it didn't......Walker mentioned this incident 20 years after it happened, and I for one, still am in the dark as to whether it did or didn't happen.

The HSCA didn't seem to address the issue conclusively.....unless it is buried in one of the 500,000 documents that have been de-classified over the last couple of years. Until then....what a pathetic situation.....

The real problem with resolving the JFK assassination is that it takes a historian, researcher and somebody with a considerable amount of time and money to wade through the wheat and chaff of doc's allegations and theories, and even if you know what happened, unless you are a high profile person like an established writer or official, you will get the media treatment, but there are some very good researchers who will, I would estimate, never give up....David Talbot is one of them

Some might find this of interest. Not sure if I have posted this before on this forum:

http://coverthistory.blogspot.com/2005/07/...allegation.html

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David Talbot argues in his book, Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years, that Walker's indoctrination program had been endorsed by General Lyman Lemnitzer. Talbot quotes a letter from Lemnitzer to Walker saying that he found his efforts "interesting and useful."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwalker.htm

I believe there is much about Walker's discharge from the U.S. Military that has a certain hollow ring to it; Yes he was definitely prosecuted for treasonous activities while Bobby was AG. but he didn't just terminate every relationship with every military person he ever knew the day he was no longer an "active" member of the US military, I still get irritated when the old story [whether true or false] about Ruby and Oswald being arrested and released before the assassination is mentioned; either it happened or it didn't......Walker mentioned this incident 20 years after it happened, and I for one, still am in the dark as to whether it did or didn't happen.

The HSCA didn't seem to address the issue conclusively.....unless it is buried in one of the 500,000 documents that have been de-classified over the last couple of years. Until then....what a pathetic situation.....

The real problem with resolving the JFK assassination is that it takes a historian, researcher and somebody with a considerable amount of time and money to wade through the wheat and chaff of doc's allegations and theories, and even if you know what happened, unless you are a high profile person like an established writer or official, you will get the media treatment, but there are some very good researchers who will, I would estimate, never give up....David Talbot is one of them

Some might find this of interest. Not sure if I have posted this before on this forum:

http://coverthistory.blogspot.com/2005/07/...allegation.html

Regarding the article at coverthistory.blogspot, it is all very fascinating, no sarcasm intended, but some information, such as citing sources would help even more......Otherwise it's just another allegation.

Regarding Oswald and Ruby being arrested; yes Walker repeated that story practically until he died, but he never could prove it happened. I think Jim Marrs and Jack White discovered a document attesting to the fact that the two were arrested together, only to discover that allegedly the document had been forged by members of the Dallas Police Department.......Which, as Bill Kelly has pointed out, is quite illegal.

My opinion is that if Oswald and Ruby had been arrested together before the assassination, somebody would have come forward at some point, and said "yes, they were brought into the Dallas Police Department."

But that is only an opinion.

On the other hand, according to mary ferrell's website. Moon's wife worked for NATO in France....

BUCHANAN, JUANITA (MRS. R. L.)

Sources: CD 104, p. 185; CD 105, p. 48; CD 205, p. 304; CD 355, p. 118

Mary's

Comments: Owned and operated El Dorado Lounge. Had worked for Ruby. Knew Duff and Andre Angeles (AKA Don Moon). Had worked as bookkeeper for Jack Ruby for three or four months in 1961, under name "Juanita Sparks."

MOON, DON (ALIAS OF ANDRE ANGELES)

Sources: WC Vol 26, p. 477

Mary's

Comments: (See Andre Angeles and Juanita Buchanan at El Dorado Bar)

MOON, DON BLAKE

Sources: CD 199, pp. 1-5

Mary's

Comments: "Never heard of Andre Angeles." Born Don Blake LYONS but adopted by stepfather, Hiram Moon in 1954. Had tried to contact Reid Pipin, a Dallas artist, through Buchanans at El Dorado Bar in Dallas for purpose of obtaining commercial artist's job in D.C. Don Moon's wife is with NATO in France. Moon had worked for Tommy Tucker Plastics in Dallas.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...ult&id=6670

Edited by Robert Howard

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Email on General Walker:

I lived Central Arkansas as a child, I am now 57 years old. My father is over ninty years old and has had strokes. I have only recently begin to become interested in trying to find out why General Walker frequently visited our home when I was about twelve years old.

I have only recently learned of Walkers background. When he visited our home I thought he was just another Fort Roots VA patient that my father had met while in one of his stays in this facility.

My mother had told me after his first visit to our home that Mr. Walker had been in charge of the Troops in Little Rock During the school crisis.

I am beginning to remember bits and pieces of his visits and I am now left with many questions, especially since this time frame for Mr. Walker seems to be so important with regard to important historical events.

My father tells me that he has little recollection of Mr. Walker except that he says he did not like him much.

The Kennedy assassination seemed a million miles away from me at the time, and in retrospect it now seems closer to home after I realized that Mr. Walker was in our home shortly after an attempt was made on his life.

Mr. Walker and my father took my brother and I squirrel hunting, which now seems very odd to me, that is after learning more about his life during that time.

I's not sure if any of this has any bearing on anything, but it has certainly peaked my curious nature.

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