Jump to content
The Education Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Rich Pope

Oswald...Smart or Learning Disabled

Recommended Posts

I read that Oswald was considered very intelligent but had difficulty in school because of some learning disabilities.  Let me throw this question out.  If Oswald wasn't trying to kill JFK and he wasn't trying to Kill Governor Connally, could he possibly be thinking he was thwarting the assassination?  Just imagine...He's in the 6th floor window of the TSBD.  He has that crappy rifle with a misaligned scope but he doesn't care.  Why?  Because he's not going to shoot anyone.  His only goal is to shoot first, missing the motorcade completely and hoping it forces the driver of JFK's limo to speed-up and race from the scene, thus preventing the assassination.  Of course the driver did quite the opposite.  He slowed-down because he thought he was headed for an ambush.  But, Oswald was counting on him to follow his Secret Service training.  Then Oswald would emerge a hero for saving JFK.  What do you guys think? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Over the years I've heard several variations on that theme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Mark,

it makes total sense.  When Oswald was a kid, his favorite t.v. show was “I Led Three Lives”.  It was about a young man who went into deep cover pretending he was a Communist only to emerge a hero who saves the day.  Oswald was living - out this fantasy.  He pretended to be a Communist and managed to infiltrate the plot to assassinate JFK.  Only he didn’t really infiltrate anything because the CIA had been molding and shaping him into thinking he was undercover on a top-level assignment:  preventing the assassination of JFK.  Oswald dutifully followed his instructions.  He fired one time from the sniper’s nest in the TSBD, set the rifle aside and went to the second floor lunchroom.  Many people make a point that Oswald was standing next to a soda machine.  But he later walked over to where a telephone was and waited for a call.  A call that did not come.  At this point Oswald felt that sinking feeling in his stomach when he realized he had been duped.  He made his way home, changed clothes, grabbed his gun and headed for a pre-arranged meeting place; The Texas Theatre.  Along the way he ran into Dallas Police Officer JD Tippit.  Tippit got out of his car, Oswald panicked and gunned down Tippet in broad daylight.  After ducking into the theatre, Oswald made his way around the dark theatre trying to locate his contact but the few people he tried to converse with, didn’t know who he was and were confused.  Oswald then went and sat alone, contemplating his fate.  He knew this was the end.  Nearly 30 police cars arrived on the scene, Oswald was taken into custody and was gunned down two days later, never being able to face trial for a crime he never committed.

Edited by Rich Pope

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

Mark,

it makes total sense.  When Oswald was a kid, his favorite t.v. show was “I Led Three Lives”.  It was about a young man who went into deep cover pretending he was a Communist only to emerge a hero who saves the day.  Oswald was living - out this fantasy.  He pretended to be a Communist and managed to infiltrate the plot to assassinate JFK.  Only he didn’t really infiltrate anything because the CIA had been molding and shaping him into thinking he was undercover on a top-level assignment:  preventing the assassination of JFK.  Oswald dutifully followed his instructions.  He fired one time from the sniper’s nest in the TSBD, set the rifle aside and went to the second floor lunchroom.  Many people make a point that Oswald was standing next to a soda machine.  But he later walked over to where a telephone was and waited for a call.  A call that did not come.  At this point Oswald felt that sinking feeling in his stomach when he realized he had been duped.  He made his way home, changed clothes, grabbed his gun and headed for a pre-arranged meeting place; The Texas Theatre.  Along the way he ran into Dallas Police Officer JD Tippit.  Tippit got out of his car, Oswald panicked and gunned down Tippet in broad daylight.  After ducking into the theatre, Oswald made his way around the dark theatre trying to locate his contact but the few people he tried to converse with, didn’t know who he was and were confused.  Oswald then went and sat alone, contemplating his fate.  He knew this was the end.  Nearly 30 police cars arrived on the scene, Oswald was taken into custody and was gunned down two days later, never being able to face trial for a crime he never committed.

That show was on while Robert Oswald was stationed in the marines, so he probably made up the claim that that was OSwald's favorite show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

I read that Oswald was considered very intelligent but had difficulty in school because of some learning disabilities.  Let me throw this question out.  If Oswald wasn't trying to kill JFK and he wasn't trying to Kill Governor Connally, could he possibly be thinking he was thwarting the assassination?  Just imagine...He's in the 6th floor window of the TSBD.  He has that crappy rifle with a misaligned scope but he doesn't care.  Why?  Because he's not going to shoot anyone.  His only goal is to shoot first, missing the motorcade completely and hoping it forces the driver of JFK's limo to speed-up and race from the scene, thus preventing the assassination.  Of course the driver did quite the opposite.  He slowed-down because he thought he was headed for an ambush.  But, Oswald was counting on him to follow his Secret Service training.  Then Oswald would emerge a hero for saving JFK.  What do you guys think? 

 

13 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

Mark,

it makes total sense.  When Oswald was a kid, his favorite t.v. show was “I Led Three Lives”.  It was about a young man who went into deep cover pretending he was a Communist only to emerge a hero who saves the day.  Oswald was living - out this fantasy.  He pretended to be a Communist and managed to infiltrate the plot to assassinate JFK.  Only he didn’t really infiltrate anything because the CIA had been molding and shaping him into thinking he was undercover on a top-level assignment:  preventing the assassination of JFK.  Oswald dutifully followed his instructions.  He fired one time from the sniper’s nest in the TSBD, set the rifle aside and went to the second floor lunchroom.  Many people make a point that Oswald was standing next to a soda machine.  But he later walked over to where a telephone was and waited for a call.  A call that did not come.  At this point Oswald felt that sinking feeling in his stomach when he realized he had been duped.  He made his way home, changed clothes, grabbed his gun and headed for a pre-arranged meeting place; The Texas Theatre.  Along the way he ran into Dallas Police Officer JD Tippit.  Tippit got out of his car, Oswald panicked and gunned down Tippet in broad daylight.  After ducking into the theatre, Oswald made his way around the dark theatre trying to locate his contact but the few people he tried to converse with, didn’t know who he was and were confused.  Oswald then went and sat alone, contemplating his fate.  He knew this was the end.  Nearly 30 police cars arrived on the scene, Oswald was taken into custody and was gunned down two days later, never being able to face trial for a crime he never committed.

I don't think Oswald was in the sixth floor window during the assassination.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/B Disk/Bronson Charles/Item 27.pdf

Quote

Was Oswald In The Window?
By Earl Golz
Dallas Morning News
November 26, 1978

Was Lee Harvey Oswald one of two images filmed moving in the 6th floor window about six minutes before President John F. Kennedy was shot?

Or was Oswald up in the sniper’s nest at all?

Two witnesses have said Oswald was in or near the 2nd-floor lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository just before and after the shooting. He would have been pressed for time to run up four flights of stairs, take aim, score two direct hits and run back downstairs.
A third witness told the FBI she saw two men – one with a gun – in the double window of an upper floor of the depository about the time Charles L. Bronson’s movie camera filmed two images moving in the 6th-floor window. She said the FBI tried to dissuade her by suggesting she saw only “boxes.”

Mrs. Carolyn Johnston of Stephenville, Texas, told The News last week that she saw Oswald in the 2nd-floor lunchroom as she was on her way out of the depository to watch the presidential motorcade Nov. 22, 1963.

She left the building at 12:25 p.m., she said, or five minutes before the assassination. This was at the approximate time Bronson was filming two images in the 6th-floor window.

The Warren Commission said no depository employee saw Oswald after 11:55 a.m.

Policeman Marrion Baker and depository manager Roy Truly met Oswald in the doorway of the same 2nd-floor lunchroom at 12:32 p.m., only two minutes after the assassination. The question arises whether Oswald ever left the lunchroom.

Mrs. Johnston, then Mrs. Carolyn Arnold, was secretary to depository vice president O.V. Campbell. She said she never had read the FBI reports of two interviews with her. She was surprised to learn they made no mention of her sighting of Oswald in the lunchroom.
Mrs. Johnson said she “would have thought” she told the FBI during both interviews of her encounter with Oswald in the lunchroom because “that’s the only time I remember having seen him” on the day of the assassination.

“I do not recall that he (Oswald) was doing anything,” Mrs. Johnston said. “I just recall that he was sitting there… in one of the booth seats on the right-hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly.”

She knew Oswald because he would come to her desk on the second floor and ask for change, never accepting pennies but only nickels and dimes.

The FBI report of her first interview four days after the assassination stated that after she left the depository and stood about 30 feet in front of the building to watch the motorcade, she “thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of Lee Harvey Oswald standing in the hallway” on the first floor.

“That is completely foreign to me,” Mrs. Johnston told The News. “It would have forced me to have been turning back around to the building when, in fact, I was trying to watch the parade. Why would I be looking back inside the building? That doesn’t make any sense to me.”

Another witness, Arnold Rowland, said he saw a man standing in a 6th-floor window holding a rifle across his chest at 12:15 p.m. He said he also saw, from his vantage point on Houston Street less than a block east of the depository, another man on the same floor but in another window.

Rowland said he spotted both men when no depository employee was supposed to be on the sixth floor. This indicates Rowland saw the two men before Mrs. Johnston saw Oswald four floors below.

His time was accurate because he recalled he saw the men just as a nearby police radio delivered the message that the motorcade was at a Cedar Springs location. The police radio log shows the presidential car passed that point between 12:15 and 12:16 p.m.

Rowland first publicly told his story about seeing a second man on the sixth floor more than three months after the assassination. Testifying before the Warren Commission, he was asked why he hadn’t told the same story to the FBI in several interviews.

He said he had.

“At the time I told them I did see the Negro man there and they (FBI) told me it didn’t have any bearing or such on the case right then,” Rowland said. “In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it now … they didn’t seem interested at all. They didn’t pursue the point. They didn’t take it down in the notation as such.”

Rowland’s gunman was white and was standing in a partially open window at the southwest corner of the building. The Negro man was at the opposite end of the floor, in the southeast window filmed by Bronson nine minutes later.

Mrs. Carolyn Walter of Dallas was standing along Houston Street near Rowland when she saw two men, one of them holding a gun, in an upper floor double window of the depository at about the time Bronson was filming images in the 6th-floor window.

One of the windows was partially open and she said she thought it was on either the fourth or fifth floor directly below window noted in Bronson’s photos. Bronson’s film, however, shows that none of the windows was up and down the southeast corner of the building were open at 12:24 p.m. – except the one in which the images were filmed.

“He (the man with the gun) seemed very casual,” Mrs. Walter said. “That’s why it didn’t scare men, I guess. The gun was angled downward toward Houston Street. He was holding it with both hands and, like I say, casually. Not like he was actually aiming or pointing.”

The motorcade at that point was about six minutes late and should have been coming down Houston Street toward the depository building.

Both Mrs. Walter and Rowland said they weren’t alarmed at seeing a man with a gun because they thought he was either a Secret Service agent guarding the president or a security guard.

Rowland said his gunman wore a light-colored shirt, which could fit the description of the white T-shirt Oswald was believed to be wearing at the time. Mrs. Walter, however, said her gunman was wearing a dark brown suit and the other man in the window had on a light-colored shirt or jacket.

“They (FBI) tried to make me think that what I saw were boxes,” Mrs. Walter said. “Now the boxes are much lighter colored. And this was definitely the shape of a person or part of a person.

“I never read their report. I talked to them and it seemed like they weren’t very interested. They were going to set out to prove me a xxxx and I had no intention of arguing with them and being harassed. I felt like I had told them all I knew. And I had relieved myself of the burden of it. And if they didn’t want to believe it or had some reason not to, well, then, that was all right with me.”

Neither Rowland nor Mrs. Walter could identify either of the men in the window as Oswald. Neither saw the shots being fired.

If Oswald was on the second floor at 12:25 pm as Johnston says he was, then it appears that Oswald couldn't have been one of the men reportedly seen by Rowland or Walter or filmed by Bronson. If Oswald was a shooter, he should have been in position before that time, because according to the article, the motorcade was six minutes behind schedule. It should have passed the TSBD at 12:24 pm.

Also the rifle found that day was a Mauser, not the rifle alleged to have been Oswald's. The shooter didn't just "set the rifle aside" and go to the second floor lunchroom. If it was Oswald, he would have had to run at top speed from the southeast corner to the northwest corner, through a maze of boxes of books, and then quickly stuff the rifle deep between some other stacks of boxes before running down four flights of stairs at top speed, all in two minutes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok.  Well, there goes my theory that Oswald was trying to prevent the assassination of JFK.  It was an interesting idea while it lasted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't want to sound too critical, Rich. I definitely support your efforts in coming up with a theory.

It is possible that Oswald was there thinking he was part of a team to foil an assassination.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Denny Zartman said:

I don't want to sound too critical, Rich. I definitely support your efforts in coming up with a theory.

It is possible that Oswald was there thinking he was part of a team to foil an assassination.

Denny,

I don’t think you sound too critical.  I thought that Judith Baker said in an interview that Oswald was trying to prevent the assassination.  Maybe my memory is poor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

Ok.  Well, there goes my theory that Oswald was trying to prevent the assassination of JFK.  It was an interesting idea while it lasted.

Your not the first to suggest such.  It's been discussed before.  Nor is it impossible that is what he was Told he was doing. Or that he was part of a "security test" as Vince Palamara refers to in Survivor's Guilt. Or even some type of protest.  My point is, he was following orders.  When the deal actually really went down he realize he was a screwed pooch, could trust no one other than hopefully a potential contact at the Texas Theater, and , it was time to get the hell out of Dodge (Dallas).

Regarding the thread title.  He was smart enough to get his GED while in the Marines, become a radar operator with a security clearance monitoring the CIA's super secret U2's overflights of Russia, and, be taught the difficult Russian language at a young age (no, he didn't learn it on his own by himself studying it in his spare time).

He knew something was up or he wouldn't have visited Marina and his daughters on Thursday night, as he had never done before.  But not that he was going to be made a Patsy of the next day.  Or that Kennedy would be killed the next day, or that certainly not that, if he was, he would be blamed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could not have said it better.  I did read in a recent book that Oswald had a learning disability but the author did not specify what it was.  The author did say Oswald was considered by many to be intelligent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Your not the first to suggest such.  It's been discussed before.  Nor is it impossible that is what he was Told he was doing. Or that he was part of a "security test" as Vince Palamara refers to in Survivor's Guilt. Or even some type of protest.  My point is, he was following orders.  When the deal actually really went down he realized he was a screwed pooch, could trust no one other than hopefully a potential contact at the Texas Theater, and , it was time to get the hell out of Dodge (Dallas).

Regarding the thread title.  He was smart enough to get his GED while in the Marines, become a radar operator with a security clearance monitoring the CIA's super secret U2's overflights of Russia, and, be taught the difficult Russian language at a young age (no, he didn't learn it on his own by himself studying it in his spare time).

He knew something was up or he wouldn't have visited Marina and his daughters on Thursday night, as he had never done before.  But not that he was going to be made a Patsy of the next day.  Or that Kennedy would be killed the next day, or that certainly not that, if he did (know), he would be blamed.

BTW, I do wonder if O might have been slightly dyslexic.  I'm no  W. Niederhut or a linguist but for example at one point he said "I axed (asked) for..."  I think there were other examples. 

Edited by Ron Bulman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If memory serves, Oswald's IQ was in the top 10%, which means he was smarter than the vast majority of know-it-alls to investigate him, or write about him.

As far as his saying "axed" instead of "asked"...this has nothing to do with dyslexia, and everything to do with his being a poorly educated person from the south.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pat,

People with high IQ's can be hindered by learning disabilities.  Take chess genius Bobby Fischer.  In 1958, when Fischer took the Stanford-Binet test at the age of 15, his score was 180-187(much higher than Albert Einstein's) did horribly in school (he left at age 16), yet managed to teach himself several foreign languages.  And taking a swipe at the intelligences of the "vast majority" of "know-it-alls" is pretty rude for a moderator.  In fact, if you actually read the posts, everyone is in agreement that Oswald was very intelligent.  I don't ever reading anyone saying anything different.  Now the "dyslexia" comment, I cannot verify.  In fact, I actually said I'm not sure what learning disability he might have had, only that I had read it in a book at some point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rich Pope said:

Pat,

People with high IQ's can be hindered by learning disabilities.  Take chess genius Bobby Fischer.  In 1958, when Fischer took the Stanford-Binet test at the age of 15, his score was 180-187(much higher than Albert Einstein's) did horribly in school (he left at age 16), yet managed to teach himself several foreign languages.  And taking a swipe at the intelligences of the "vast majority" of "know-it-alls" is pretty rude for a moderator.  In fact, if you actually read the posts, everyone is in agreement that Oswald was very intelligent.  I don't ever reading anyone saying anything different.  Now the "dyslexia" comment, I cannot verify.  In fact, I actually said I'm not sure what learning disability he might have had, only that I had read it in a book at some point.

The "know-it-alls" was not a dig at anyone on this forum, but at the many LN writers to build their impressions on the misguided belief Oswald was a mouth-breathing wife-beater, and far dumber than those determined to convict him, i.e., the Warren Commission, its staff, and the writers to follow in their footsteps.

The fact is, Oswald was smarter than many of these men. including, quite possibly, Warren, Dulles, Ford, Specter, Manchester, Posner, Mailer, Bugliosi and King. The man is an enigma. But he was no dummy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

People are very different in their ability or propensity to adapt or acquire languages accents and dialects. I have been going to the same Italian-American barber, who talks too much, for 25 years. 25 years ago, I could could understand about 30% about what he was talking about. Now I can understand about 20% af what he says. He clearly has no ability (or desire, to be fair) to pick up or adapt to another language. I, for all my inability to better understand my barber after all these years, very readily pick up accents, and dialects and word usage depending on where Iive. I have discovered this ability ( or propensity.through my changes of residence throughout NY and New England, as well as during during college when I was taking a Chaucer course and found myself dreaming in Middle English.

I think I am like Oswald in that sense. Anyone here (lance) who says Russian is easy or as easy to pick—up as some western Eauropean languages is being disingenuous, at best, and probably would also claims that the purported 3 shots from the TSBD were child’s play.

Autism has been given such a wide range of presentations in recent years that it has become less useful to talk about in many circumstances; but I believe, in concurrence with Greg Parker, that the Dallas Police Station and  NOLA interviewed LHO had a particular autistic gift for language adaptation, and this is the only thing that would recommend him for his service in the Navy and transposition into intelligence. And, barring further, solid evidence for his specific specialty as an RF radar operator/technician ( I am an RF Technician) I suspect that LHO was more of a signals-intercepts kind of guy. This would better explain any “miraculous” uptake of the Russia language than is often offered.

Cheers,

Michael

 

 

Edited by Michael Clark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×