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On 1/4/2019 at 3:50 PM, François Carlier said:

By the way, as always, you are losing sight of what is important. The only man who shot JFK in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963 was Lee Harvey Oswald. Period. So whatever you might find about Mexico City is not really important as far as looking for the answer to the question : "who killed Kennedy ?"
I'll tell you something. I am all ears. I am open-minded. I'll read all the "evidence" that you'll show here. If you prove to me that Oswald did not go to Mexico City, I will have absolutely no hesitation in admitting it. I don't really care one way or the other. That won't change the fact that on November 22, 1963, in Dallas, it was Lee Oswald who assassinated President Kennedy.
So, go ahead.
(Now, I am confident that you'll never be able to prove something that is wrong. Therefore, you won't be able to prove that Oswald was not where he actually was. But I'll be interested in reading)

Why do people waste time even talking to fc?  Stop sign people, stop sign.  

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On 1/4/2019 at 10:04 PM, David Von Pein said:
On 1/4/2019 at 9:41 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Meanwhile can you reply to the other nine points:

Why is there no photo?  At either embassy? Why is there no voice match? Why did both informants say he was not there? Twice. Why was there an alleged call on Saturday?  Why is there no indication of the calls on the newly decalcified CIA summary per month?  Why is it the wrong buses and wrong passport?

I can't answer all those questions, Jim. And neither can you (or any other CTer).

 

David,

You can't explain the mysteries of the Mexico City trip because you choose not to explain them. Instead you sweep them under the rug. In contrast, we CTer choose to explore possible explanations for  the trip. We hypothesize and then test our hypotheses.

Many CTers already have a good idea as to what the purpose of this alleged trip was. Unlike you (and even some CTers) I believe that we WILL figure out most of the important points of the "trip."

The Mexico City trip is not unlike many scientific mysteries that have been solved over the decades and centuries, even when limited evidence was available. For example, electricity. The only available hard evidence for electricity was the observance of electrostatic sparks and lightening. But by discovering and piecing together bits and pieces of circumstantial evidence, through the testing of scientific hypotheses the mystery of electricity was eventually solved. And now look at what we have.

I for one choose not to adopt your defeatist attitude.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 1/5/2019 at 1:41 AM, David Von Pein said:
On 1/4/2019 at 11:57 PM, James DiEugenio said:

And this is the difference.  You cannot answer why there are no photos.  Or why it's the wrong voice.  Or why the calls are not on the CIA monthly summary.  Etc etc.

Whereas I can answer yours very easily.

Sure, it's easy to just pretend all the various documents are fake and phony. And it's easy to label someone a l-i-a-r.

 

Yes, it is easy to label something as being phony. And nobody should be afraid of doing so when warranted.

When X completely contradicts Y, and one of those is backed by a great deal of evidence, then its only logical to declare the other one wrong. Even if it is an FBI document, a photograph, or a witness.

Doing this makes all the sense in the world. Sweeping it under the rug makes no sense at all.

 

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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If Lee Harvey Oswald (or an Oswald impersonator - I don't really care that much) was being used as bait in Mexico City; what, or who was the fish that the fisherman hoped to catch?

Was the fishing expedition tied to the use of the Harvey Lee Oswald name?

The earliest time I can find the name, Harvey Lee Oswald being used was in Russia in 1960.

I have not fleshed this out, but I have read in the past that there was a CIA file under the name Harvey Lee Oswald, and it ties back to the Mexico City incident and Angleton's mole hunt. This Harvey Lee Oswald file may indeed go back as far as Oswald's fake defection to Russia in 1960. As Dulles was the former Director of the CIA, he would more than likely have been aware of it.

Included in CE 985 is a Letter from the Department of State to the Commission, dated May 18, 1964, with attached documents. It says that 985 is a translated copy of a note submitted by Dobrynin on May 5, 1964.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&relPageId=111&search=Dobrynin_December%2011,%201963

p. 111.

In this letter, it says that Harvey Lee Oswald's request for USSR Citizenship was denied. It doesn't say when he applied for that citizenship, but the character reference memo from the Minsk Radio factory in CE 985, p. 433 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=447&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22 is dated December 11, 1961 and refers to “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald.

Documents submitted by Dobrynin on May 5, 1964:

CE 985 pp. 404+

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=418&tab=page

There is an application for an identity card, which was granted on January 4, 1960, 1961, and 1962, but no application for citizenship, and no correspondence from the Soviet Government denying such an application. So whose application for citizenship was denied?

On page 433 of that CE Exhibit (CE 985), it says that “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald was hired as a regulator at the Minsk Radio Plant on January 13, 1960.

Peter Dale Scott before the ARRB: October 11, 1994.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145535&search=105-2137#relPageId=36&tab=page

p. 36.

I want to suggest to you that the FBI may have been tracking all of this in a file which I am quite sure has never been seen by the Warren Commission, never been seen by the House Committee, and never certainly by me or by the Archives today. I have found a reference to it in a cover sheet which I am going to leave with you. It is Mexico City File 105-2137, which is then struck out and replaced with a different file number with a different name, Lee Harvey Oswald. I hope you will pursue that original file. I predict that it will lead to some third agency which has been protected in here...”

Letter from Petr Dale Scott to John Newman

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2017/10/additional-missing-jfk-assassination.html

Dear John,

In fact, the cover sheet mentioning this file is available from the Mary Ferrell Foundation website. It is NARA RIF 124-10029-10270, FBI serial MX 105-3702-254. It is from “Wesley” [SA Howard D. Wesley], has the title “Information re Allegations re Oswald case,” and (apart from still classified cross-file references) contains only this reference: “105-2137, [corrected manually in ink to “3702”] (Harvy Lee Oswald).” (It makes no reference to “Lee Harvey Oswald.”)3.

3. At the time I did not know who Wesley was. But other FBI “Harvey Lee Oswald” records identify him as SA Howard D. Wesley, then at the FBI Mexican branch office in Monterrey.”

 

So, who, or what, was the fish the fisherman hoped to catch? Was the fish a conduit, a pipeline, for information being passed? Was the fisherman waiting to see where in Soviet circles Harvey Lee Oswald would turn up post-MC?

 

Steve Thomas


 


 

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6 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Was the fishing expedition tied to the use of the Harvey Lee Oswald name?

Think it had more to do with Lee HENRY.... than anything else....

That comes from HQ, not MX...  whoever created the tapes for transcribing (cough, Phillips, cough) controlled the Op.  Why Duran insists Oswald did not return Sat, Azcue claims someone did... and those calls made.... I think it only fair to mention Simpich’s State Secret... for more detail as to what MAY have been the mole hunt trap...  

The LIENVOY summary reports are only interested in English speaking Americans which is why contemporaneously we get no reporting of these calls... They did not occur....

yknow, like the FBI not noticing a rifle delivery to their fav little commie...

 

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David:

Did you not say at one time that the whole visa clipped application with Duran looked fishy to you also?

 

I think you gave two reasons.

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19 hours ago, François Carlier said:

Thank you, Ma'am.
Actually, I was just joking. I believe that Lee Oswald did go to Mexico City so in no way woud I think that he stayed in New Orleans with Judith Baker (whose story I don't endorse).

I do realize that, Francois.  

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15 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Think it had more to do with Lee HENRY.... than anything else....

That comes from HQ, not MX...  whoever created the tapes for transcribing (cough, Phillips, cough) controlled the Op.  Why Duran insists Oswald did not return Sat, Azcue claims someone did... and those calls made.... I think it only fair to mention Simpich’s State Secret... for more detail as to what MAY have been the mole hunt trap...  

The LIENVOY summary reports are only interested in English speaking Americans which is why contemporaneously we get no reporting of these calls... They did not occur....

yknow, like the FBI not noticing a rifle delivery to their fav little commie...

 

That's an interesting concept David.  Not to distract from the MC topic.  But the FBI, CIA, Byrd (?) senate investigation on weapons transport in the US at the time, and US Post Office, involved in that investigation at the time, would not notice the shipment or non receipt of the rifle or pistol to Oswald, that pinko commie defector.  Should have raised red flags for Hoover and Angleton both.  Why didn't it?

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7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

That's an interesting concept David.  Not to distract from the MC topic.  But the FBI, CIA, Byrd (?) senate investigation on weapons transport in the US at the time, and US Post Office, involved in that investigation at the time, would not notice the shipment or non receipt of the rifle or pistol to Oswald, that pinko commie defector.  Should have raised red flags for Hoover and Angleton both.  Why didn't it?

Cause it didn’t happen... the rifle was created as an item of evidence against Ozzie.  So there had to be paperwork related as well...

The Evidence IS the Conspiracy.

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16 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

David:

Did you not say at one time that the whole visa clipped application with Duran looked fishy to you also?

 

I think you gave two reasons.

CORNWELL - So, from all the circumstances, did it appear to your that he just went somewhere locally and had the pictures made?
TIRADO - Yeah. I think that I already explained (to) him where he could take the photographs.
CORNWELL - You told him some locations in town where ge could go? Were there some right in the neighborhood of the Consulate there?
TIRADO - That I don't remember.

5a610f1b3f20a_Photo_hsca_ex_194CubanConsualteVisaapplicationphotoandCE2788-VERYHIGHQUALimageofsamephoto.thumb.jpg.911409da1b9cd7effbe047de96b2e7d8.jpg

 

CORNWELL - Just one. The ... I believe I asked you this, but just to be sure, although the application was typed with a carbon to make two copies with one typing, did he have to sign both independently? Or did you allow them to use a carbon to sign the paper?
TIRADO - No, no. It was the original.
CORNWELL - Two original signatures. All right.
TIRADO - Yes.

5a0ca6017f4c0_2oswaldsignaturesonthe2Cubanconsulateapplicationdontmatch.jpg.948d690eb55387cb65be8a5c10b3cd36.jpg

 

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19 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

CORNWELL - So, from all the circumstances, did it appear to your that he just went somewhere locally and had the pictures made?
TIRADO - Yeah. I think that I already explained (to) him where he could take the photographs.
CORNWELL - You told him some locations in town where ge could go? Were there some right in the neighborhood of the Consulate there?
TIRADO - That I don't remember.

5a610f1b3f20a_Photo_hsca_ex_194CubanConsualteVisaapplicationphotoandCE2788-VERYHIGHQUALimageofsamephoto.thumb.jpg.911409da1b9cd7effbe047de96b2e7d8.jpg

 

CORNWELL - Just one. The ... I believe I asked you this, but just to be sure, although the application was typed with a carbon to make two copies with one typing, did he have to sign both independently? Or did you allow them to use a carbon to sign the paper?
TIRADO - No, no. It was the original.
CORNWELL - Two original signatures. All right.
TIRADO - Yes.

5a0ca6017f4c0_2oswaldsignaturesonthe2Cubanconsulateapplicationdontmatch.jpg.948d690eb55387cb65be8a5c10b3cd36.jpg

 

 

David,

I wish you would annotate better the images that you post.

Is there a point to be made regarding the top image showing the photo of Oswald in three places?

Regarding the image with the two signatures, I take it that those are supposed to be Oswald's signature, one on the visa application and the other on the carbon copy of the application. I assume your point is that the two signatures are way different from each other.

I've looked at numerous examples of Oswald's signatures and they vary from one to the other considerably. Have you checked to see if each of these two signatures look similar to any of his other signatures? Regardless of that, it is certainly odd that the two signatures are so different from each other. It seems likely to me that the signatures were really made on two different occasions. And/or by two different people.

BTW, my hat's off to you for the fine work you've done on this very important subject. I believe it will prove to be instrumental in solving the case.

 

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On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 8:31 PM, David Von Pein said:

All the more reason to know your make-believe Oswald Patsy Framers must have all been total morons! Because only a complete idiot would want to have a blond guy who was 5-feet-5 try to impersonate a guy who had dark hair and was 5-9.

Just how stupid were your Mexico City plotters in 1963, Jim?

Once again Dave...

We do not buy into YOUR explanation for Mexico... so providing REASONS for your own misconceptions is a waste of time...

If you weren't choking so hard on government pabulum maybe you'd have time to come up for air and see what this was all about...

Image result for baby pabulum

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On the second one, that does not look like an original signature to me, and it does not look like the same guy signed them.

 

One last thing David, did you not say once that there was also something about the way the application was stored and stapled that was also odd?

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1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

On the second one, that does not look like an original signature to me, and it does not look like the same guy signed them.

 

One last thing David, did you not say once that there was also something about the way the application was stored and stapled that was also odd?

Digging around in the minutia...  Azcue puts him there a few days earlier...

Duran%20says%20she%20stapled%20bith%20ph

 

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Posted (edited)

To me this about does it.

Does anyone really think those two signatures were signed at the same time?

And can anyone think it was on the  25th?  With the new evidence from Father McChann in the Jackson book, which K and K will be reviewing soon, this all but guarantees there was an imposter.  Because he swears that the visit to Odio's was on the 27th due to a definite time landmark.

 

David, where are the staples?  I don't even see any staple holes.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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