Karl Kinaski Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 From the 2017 release of JFK Documents, discussed here several months ago ... the Belin-Rocca interview took place in the early 70ties, if I remember correctly ... 'EYES ONLY' SECRET CIA FILE #104-10268-10005: ANGLETON'S CIA RIGHT-HAND MAN RAYMOND ROCCA TELLS WARREN COMMISSION MEMBER BELIN THAT LEE OSWALD WAS IN MEXICO CITY BECAUSE HE WAS INVOLVED IN A PLOT TO KILL FIDEL CASTRO. (That's Judith Vary Baker told the public in 2010 in her book ME AND LEE in 2010 ... and have been telling us all since 1999). IN THIS DOCUMENT, WE LEARN THAT: 1. THE CIA KNEW LEE OSWALD WENT TO MEXICO CITY IN A PLOT TO KILL CASTRO. () kinAski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 That is interesting Karl. Since Rocca worked so closely with Jim A, I would have thought he leaned toward a KGB plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 42 minutes ago, Karl Kinaski said: From the 2017 release of JFK Documents, discussed here several months ago ... the Belin-Rocca interview took place in the early 70ties, if I remember correctly ... 'EYES ONLY' SECRET CIA FILE #104-10268-10005: ANGLETON'S CIA RIGHT-HAND MAN RAYMOND ROCCA TELLS WARREN COMMISSION MEMBER BELIN THAT LEE OSWALD WAS IN MEXICO CITY BECAUSE HE WAS INVOLVED IN A PLOT TO KILL FIDEL CASTRO. (That's Judith Vary Baker told the public in 2010 in her book ME AND LEE in 2010 ... and have been telling us all since 1999). IN THIS DOCUMENT, WE LEARN THAT: 1. THE CIA KNEW LEE OSWALD WENT TO MEXICO CITY IN A PLOT TO KILL CASTRO. () kinAski A copy of 104-10268-10005 can be found here: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=147162&search=104-10268-10005#relPageId=1&tab=page It runs to 157 pp. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=147162&search=104-10268-10005#relPageId=6&tab=page is a Memorandum of Conversation with David Belin April 1, 1975 pp. 6-7 I don't know if that is the conversation you had in mind. There is nothing in there about an Oswald plot to kill Castro. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 What KK is talking about is the BS Phillips/Alvarado story Despite all the activity and denials and lie detectors, etc... Phillips used an asset from Nicaragua... Helms explains... "D" = Alvarado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said: From the 2017 release of JFK Documents, discussed here several months ago ... the Belin-Rocca interview took place in the early 70ties, if I remember correctly ... 'EYES ONLY' SECRET CIA FILE #104-10268-10005: ANGLETON'S CIA RIGHT-HAND MAN RAYMOND ROCCA TELLS WARREN COMMISSION MEMBER BELIN THAT LEE OSWALD WAS IN MEXICO CITY BECAUSE HE WAS INVOLVED IN A PLOT TO KILL FIDEL CASTRO. (That's Judith Vary Baker told the public in 2010 in her book ME AND LEE in 2010 ... and have been telling us all since 1999). IN THIS DOCUMENT, WE LEARN THAT: 1. THE CIA KNEW LEE OSWALD WENT TO MEXICO CITY IN A PLOT TO KILL CASTRO. () kinAski I also wanted to add that AMMUG/1 worked inside the Cuban Embassy and was one of the most valuable of CIA assets... He, like LITAMIL/9 would be aware of any visits or subsequent talk of visits by Oswald to the Cuban Embassy... and like all the others, he does not know of OSWALD until after 11/22... Edited January 9, 2019 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Steve Thomas said: A copy of 104-10268-10005 can be found here: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=147162&search=104-10268-10005#relPageId=1&tab=page It runs to 157 pp. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=147162&search=104-10268-10005#relPageId=6&tab=page is a Memorandum of Conversation with David Belin April 1, 1975 pp. 6-7 I don't know if that is the conversation you had in mind. There is nothing in there about an Oswald plot to kill Castro. Steve Thomas Unfortunately I can't find the document. Maybe the file number is wrong. A summary of the Belin-Rocca conversation was posted on Facebook in 2017, by Judyth Baker. Thats the summary, quote: EYES ONLY' SECRET CIA FILE #104-10268-10005: (Wrong file Nummer?) Belin-Rocca-Conversation: 1.April 1975 ... 1. ANGLETON'S CIA RIGHT-HAND MAN RAYMOND ROCCA TELLS WARREN COMMISSION MEMBER BELIN THAT LEE OSWALD WAS IN MEXICO CITY BECAUSE HE WAS INVOLVED IN A PLOT TO KILL FIDEL CASTRO. (just as I (JVB)have been telling you since 1999). IN THIS DOCUMENT, WE LEARN THAT: 1. THE CIA KNEW LEE OSWALD WENT TO MEXICO CITY IN A PLOT TO KILL CASTRO. 2. [HISTORY: SINCE CIA'S ANGLETON HAD BEEN IN CHARGE OF LEE'S FAKE DEFECTION, ANGLETON'S "CLOSEST FRIEND", RAYMOND ROCCA, WANTS TO SEE HOW MUCH THE WARREN COMMISSION WAS TOLD ABOUT OSWALD.] 3. THE COMMISSION HAD SEALED UP SECRET RECORDS IT HAD RECEIVED FROM A DIFFERENT BRANCH OF THE CIA (ORIGINALLY FOR 75 YEARS). 4. ANGLETON WAS PARANOID AND DID NOT WANT ANY BLAME LAID ON HIS DEPARTMENT. 5. ROCCA WANTS TO GO ON RECORD THAT HIS DEPARTMENT WAS NOT MADE AWARE OF WHAT INFORMATION THE WARREN COMMISSION WAS GIVEN, OR HOW HIGH UP IT WENT. 6. ROCCA LEARNS THAT HELMS HIMSELF, HEAD OF THE CIA, FED THE WARREN COMMISSION THE CIA'S PUBLIC VERSION OF THINGS, NOT THE TRUTH. 7. HE TELLS BELIN HIS DEPARTMENT WAS NEVER MADE AWARE OF WHAT THE COMMISSION WAS TOLD. Close Quote IMO after the Cuban Missile Crisis the "higher circles" abandoned their plan to kill Castro- Kennedy had to go. For that reason, their agents (Dulles, Angleton, Rocca etc.) put Oswald in an "illusionary warfare" plot to kill Castro, to compromise him, when accused of killing Kennedy. In DPDs custody Oswald was caught in a trap. Not because he was part of the plot to kill Kennedy ( on the contrary, he was part of a team to save Kennedy), but of his deep involvement in a plot to kill Castro. That was the main reason, he was sent to MC: To make him believe, he was a key player in a plot to kill Castro, and to compromise him, when accused of the murder of Kennedy. TOPIC ON: Was Oswald in MC? IMO, yes. WHY? See my argument above. kinAski PS After Oswalds dead, the cover-up-team was working hard to make the world believe Oswalds MC episode was connected with the plot (his solitary plan) to kill Kennedy, while he was there as part of a plot to kill Castro. The "Oswald killed Kennedy" Cover was not only a protection for the real killers of Kennedy (and the US "higher circles" behind it), it was also a protection for a US-government plot to kill Castro with cancer ... IMO Edited January 10, 2019 by Karl Kinaski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 4 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said: Unfortunately I can't find the document. Maybe the file number is wrong. A summary of the Belin-Rocca conversation was posted on Facebook in 2017, by Judyth Baker. Thats the summary, quote: EYES ONLY' SECRET CIA FILE #104-10268-10005: (Wrong file Nummer?) Belin-Rocca-Conversation: 1.April 1975 ... 1. ANGLETON'S CIA RIGHT-HAND MAN RAYMOND ROCCA TELLS WARREN COMMISSION MEMBER BELIN THAT LEE OSWALD WAS IN MEXICO CITY BECAUSE HE WAS INVOLVED IN A PLOT TO KILL FIDEL CASTRO. (just as I (JVB)have been telling you since 1999). IN THIS DOCUMENT, WE LEARN THAT: 1. THE CIA KNEW LEE OSWALD WENT TO MEXICO CITY IN A PLOT TO KILL CASTRO. 2. [HISTORY: SINCE CIA'S ANGLETON HAD BEEN IN CHARGE OF LEE'S FAKE DEFECTION, ANGLETON'S "CLOSEST FRIEND", RAYMOND ROCCA, WANTS TO SEE HOW MUCH THE WARREN COMMISSION WAS TOLD ABOUT OSWALD.] 3. THE COMMISSION HAD SEALED UP SECRET RECORDS IT HAD RECEIVED FROM A DIFFERENT BRANCH OF THE CIA (ORIGINALLY FOR 75 YEARS). 4. ANGLETON WAS PARANOID AND DID NOT WANT ANY BLAME LAID ON HIS DEPARTMENT. 5. ROCCA WANTS TO GO ON RECORD THAT HIS DEPARTMENT WAS NOT MADE AWARE OF WHAT INFORMATION THE WARREN COMMISSION WAS GIVEN, OR HOW HIGH UP IT WENT. 6. ROCCA LEARNS THAT HELMS HIMSELF, HEAD OF THE CIA, FED THE WARREN COMMISSION THE CIA'S PUBLIC VERSION OF THINGS, NOT THE TRUTH. 7. HE TELLS BELIN HIS DEPARTMENT WAS NEVER MADE AWARE OF WHAT THE COMMISSION WAS TOLD. Close Quote IMO after the Cuban Missile Crisis the "higher circles" abandoned their plan to kill Castro- Kennedy had to go. For that reason, their agents (Dulles, Angleton, Rocca etc.) put Oswald in an "illusionary warfare" plot to kill Castro, to compromise him, when accused of killing Kennedy. In DPDs custody Oswald was caught in a trap. Not because he was part of the plot to kill Kennedy ( on the contrary, he was part of a team to save Kennedy), but of his deep involvement in a plot to kill Castro. That was the main reason, he was sent to MC: To make him believe, he was a key player in a plot to kill Castro, and to compromise him, when accused of the murder of Kennedy. TOPIC ON: Was Oswald in MC? IMO, yes. WHY? See my argument above. kinAski PS After Oswalds dead, the cover-up-team was working hard to make the world believe Oswalds MC episode was connected with the plot (his solitary plan) to kill Kennedy, while he was there as part of a plot to kill Castro. The "Oswald killed Kennedy" Cover was not only a protection for the real killers of Kennedy (and the US "higher circles" behind it), it was also a protection for a US-government plot to kill Castro with cancer ... IMO Karl, "Maybe the file number is wrong" That's kind of what I thought. Like I said, there's nothing in that April 1, 1975 Memo about Oswald going to Cuba to kill Castro. I didn't read all 157 pages in that file.. Maybe that Memo is buried somewhere else in that file. "1. ANGLETON'S CIA RIGHT-HAND MAN RAYMOND ROCCA TELLS WARREN COMMISSION MEMBER BELIN... " "6. ROCCA LEARNS THAT HELMS HIMSELF, HEAD OF THE CIA, FED THE WARREN COMMISSION THE CIA'S PUBLIC VERSION OF THINGS, NOT THE TRUTH. 7. HE TELLS BELIN HIS DEPARTMENT WAS NEVER MADE AWARE OF WHAT THE COMMISSION WAS TOLD." So, Angleton's Department is out of the loop on what Helms is testifying to? "PS After Oswalds dead, the cover-up-team was working hard to make the world believe Oswalds MC episode was connected with the plot (his solitary plan) to kill Kennedy, while he was there as part of a plot to kill Castro." Do you think this fits in with the scenario that (I think it was Jack Anderson who first floated the idea) that Kennedy's killers were actually potential Castro killers who were turned? Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said: Karl, "Maybe the file number is wrong" That's kind of what I thought. Like I said, there's nothing in that April 1, 1975 Memo about Oswald going to Cuba to kill Castro. I didn't read all 157 pages in that file.. Maybe that Memo is buried somewhere else in that file. "1. ANGLETON'S CIA RIGHT-HAND MAN RAYMOND ROCCA TELLS WARREN COMMISSION MEMBER BELIN... " "6. ROCCA LEARNS THAT HELMS HIMSELF, HEAD OF THE CIA, FED THE WARREN COMMISSION THE CIA'S PUBLIC VERSION OF THINGS, NOT THE TRUTH. 7. HE TELLS BELIN HIS DEPARTMENT WAS NEVER MADE AWARE OF WHAT THE COMMISSION WAS TOLD." So, Angleton's Department is out of the loop on what Helms is testifying to? "PS After Oswalds dead, the cover-up-team was working hard to make the world believe Oswalds MC episode was connected with the plot (his solitary plan) to kill Kennedy, while he was there as part of a plot to kill Castro." Do you think this fits in with the scenario that (I think it was Jack Anderson who first floated the idea) that Kennedy's killers were actually potential Castro killers who were turned? Steve Thomas No. IMO these Operations (get Kennedy, get Castro plots) where completely separated. After the Cuban Missile Crisis IMO all Get Castro Plots fell in the category "illusionary warfare". To fool and soothe Cuban exiles and to fool low level agents like Oswald for purposes unknown to them. IMO the development of a bio-weapon in NOLA (aggressive cancer) was real. But it was not meant to kill Castro, but told so Ochsner, JVB., Shermann, Ferrie and Oswald to put them into a big trap after they smashed Oswald on Nov. 22.11.63 blaming him for a completely other thing, the killing of Kennedy. "Lone Nut Oswald" is the Cover for TWO plots: Castro/Cancer (illusionary warfare) ... Kennedy/Guns (the real thing ...) in other words. Oswald was involved in a US government plot to kill somebody, but it was Castro not Kennedy ... see Roccas statement on April 1. 1975 ? SECRET CIA FILE #104-10268-10005 ? (Wrong file number): ANGLETON'S CIA RIGHT-HAND MAN RAYMOND ROCCA TELLS WARREN COMMISSION MEMBER BELIN THAT LEE OSWALD WAS IN MEXICO CITY BECAUSE HE WAS INVOLVED IN A PLOT TO KILL FIDEL CASTRO kinAski Edited January 10, 2019 by Karl Kinaski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 5 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said: SECRET CIA FILE #104-10268-10005 ? (Wrong file number): ANGLETON'S CIA RIGHT-HAND MAN RAYMOND ROCCA TELLS WARREN COMMISSION MEMBER BELIN THAT LEE OSWALD WAS IN MEXICO CITY BECAUSE HE WAS INVOLVED IN A PLOT TO KILL FIDEL CASTRO Why again do you choose to accept what the CIA's Sr. Staff tells the WC about Oswald and Mexico... when they are the perpetrators of the crime? How can DURAN testify to this Oswald character NOT COMING BACK SATURDAY... when we have the CIA transcripts of the calls? "NOT WITHSTANDING THE HOILIDAY SCHEDULE..." TIRADO - No. I read yesterday, an article in the Reader's digest, and they say he was at the Consulate on three occasions. He was in Friday, Saturday, and Monday...That's not true, that's false. CORNWELL - All right. Let's try a different hypothetical. If the one in the Reader's Digest is definitely wrong, is it possible that he first came on like a Thursday, and then came back on a Friday?TIRADO - No, because I am positively sure about it. That he came in the same day. CORNWELL - During this period was your normal work week, did it include Saturdays? Tirado - Yes.Cornwell - Is it possible that, in addition to his visits on Friday, he also came back the following day on Saturday mourning?TIRADO - No.CORNWELL - How can you be sure of that?TIRADO - Because, uh, I told you before, that it was easy to remember, because not all the Americans that came there were married with a Russian woman, they have live(d) in Russian and uh, we didn't used to fight with those people because if you, they came for going to Cuba, so apparently they were friends, no? So we were nice to them with this man we fight, I mean we had a hard discussion so we didn't want to have anything to do with him.CORNWELL - Okay. I understand that but I don't understand how that really answers the question. In other words, the question is, what is it about the events that makes you sure that he did not come back on Saturday, and have another conversation with you?TIRADO - Because I remember the fight. So if he (come) back, I would have remembered. This CIA report states Oswald and DURAN are at the Cuban Embassy on Sat the 28th, despite testimony to the contrary, despite all the signs pointing to it not being possible that Oswald was there... you still want to use RAY ROCCA as your unimpeachable source? What about the ALVARADO situation do you not "get" Karl.... the faked plot to kill Castro involves false flag stories FROM a CIA asset... Maybe you've heard of George Joannides and the activities of the mid 70's regarding the CIA, the lies they told the WC and the disappearing of witnesses as the HSCA gets into full swing? George Efythron Joannides was a Central Intelligence Agency officer who in 1963 was the chief of the Psychological Warfare branch of the agency's JMWAVE station in Miami, and in 1978 was the agency's liaison to the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) David is demonstrating why Duran was so dangerous to the official story. I think this is why she was arrested so soon after the murder. I also think that this is why Echeverria was not going to let the WC interview her in MC. He basically blew them off when they asked to talk to her. It has taken all these years, and all these declassifications to even get the broad outline of what happened in Mexico into some kind of defined portrait. But finally it appears that the CIA turned over the job of manufacturing a phony LHO trail to Ochoa and Echeverria. It was a trail so diaphanous that the FBI could not touch it since that would have meant upsetting the whole apple cart. Edited January 10, 2019 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 Let me also add, as bad as David has shown to be Oswald's alleged ride down to Mexico City, the journey back is, in my view, even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Let me also add, as bad as David has shown to be Oswald's alleged ride down to Mexico City, the journey back is, in my view, even worse. Oswald had access to planes. The pilots which flew him, wherever his handlers want him to be, were Alexander Rorke jr. who disappeared with his plane in Sep. 1963, Hugh Ward who died in a plane-crash in the summer of 1964, and David Ferrie who died in February 1967 under suspicious circumstances. Acc. to Judyth Baker Oswald traveled to Mexico City by bus (first leg of his journey, where he was seen on that bus), and then by plane:, (that's why nobody saw him on the second leg. The Odio incident (in Dallas) at the time of Oswalds Mexico-Trip, is possible, considering a plane ... Again: Oswald had access to planes ... in other words: to explain Oswalds movements one must add the third dimension. ✈️ kinAski Edited January 11, 2019 by Karl Kinaski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. A. Copeland Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 On 1/4/2019 at 5:25 PM, François Carlier said: Hello everybody, Please tell David Josephs not to watch this documentary. It would be too hard for him to bear… Starting at 1:02:30, they talk about Oswald's trip to Mexico City. They have witnesses who remember. That's funny, really : David Josephs was not in the bus, but he thinks that he knows better than the people who were in the bus ; He was not at the Cuban embassy, but he thinks that he knows better than the woman who was there ; He was not at the Soviet embassy, but he thinks that he knows better than the men who were there. They all say that they saw Oswald ? To Josephs, it means that Oswald was not there… Go figure ! It’s been proven (moreso than its negation) that LHO was impersonated on the phone and that is evidence that *must* be dealt with and understood. David Josephs and countless other competent researchers believes the FBI when they said “that wasn’t Oswald’s voice on the phone” do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) First of all, this was not a 2013 Frontline documentary FC. It was a repeat of the 1993 PBS documentary Who was Lee Harvey Oswald? This documentary was produced by its two lead consultants, Gus Russo and Dale Myers. And if that is not enough, how about this: Dale Myers always said that they did not go into this with a point of view. They were going to let the chips fall where they may. HA HA HA! Well when the Frontline producer Mike Sullivan died, Myers noted his death and finally spilled the beans on his own BS. He said Sullivan had decided at the start that Oswald was the chief and only suspect and that is what they would use as their investigative guideline. So how can one trust a guy like that, plus Mr. Single Bullet fact Dale Myers, and Russo? The only thing this show really did for the good is that it showed the photo of LHO and Ferrie at the CAP cookout. The picture that Ferrie was frantically looking for in the days after the assassination. So he could lie his head off to the FBI about not knowing Oswald. But Russo and Myers and Sullivan left all that out. This show marked two milestones. First, that PBS was now in the pocket of the Power Elite, at least on the JFK case. If you recall, PBS later went on to do that horrendous Cold Case Nova program. Which tells us about their funding problems ever since the Reagan years. And second, with it, Russo and Myers now proved they could be trusted by the MSM as cover up artists and they went on to future employment for anniversary specials e.g. Peter Jennings and Tom Brokaw. I mean c'mon, a jerk like Epstein who says that Oswald joined the Marines so he could get a gun? I mean, when you are getting your butt hand to you, you get desperate right FC? Edited January 11, 2019 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. A. Copeland Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 55 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said: First of all, this was not a 2013 Frontline documentary FC. It was a repeat of the 1993 PBS documentary Who was Lee Harvey Oswald? This documentary was produced by its two lead consultants, Gus Russo and Dale Myers. And if that is not enough, how about this: Dale Myers always said that they did not go into this with a point of view. They were going to let the chips fall where they may. HA HA HA! Well when the Frontline producer Mike Sullivan died, Myers noted his death and finally spilled the beans on his own BS. He said Sullivan had decided at the start that Oswald was the chief and only suspect and that is what they would use as their investigative guideline. So how can one trust a guy like that, plus Mr. Single Bullet fact Dale Myers, and Russo? The only thing this show really did for the good is that it showed the photo of LHO and Ferrie at the CAP cookout. The picture that Ferrie was frantically looking for in the days after the assassination. So he could lie his head off to the FBI about not knowing Oswald. But Russo and Myers and Sullivan left all that out. This show marked two milestones. First, that PBS was now in the pocket of the Power Elite, at least on the JFK case. If you recall, PBS later went on to do that horrendous Cold Case Nova program. Which tells us about their funding problems ever since the Reagan years. And second, with it, Russo and Myers now proved they could be trusted by the MSM as cover up artists and they went on to future employment for anniversary specials e.g. Peter Jennings and Tom Brokaw. I mean c'mon, a jerk like Epstein who says that Oswald joined the Marines so he could get a gun? I mean, when you are getting your butt hand to you, you get desperate right FC? Well said Jim. I'm curious, is there absolutely any way I can view or listen to that seminar Dr Aguilar gave? I would love to if possible. Thanks for all you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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