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Photos of a Harlendale house meeting were posted... I tried to find Ozzie by process of elimination..

an Alpha 66 meeting...  at the back stood a man much like Oz stood.

If you look at a lot of Oz photos, the elbows are always bent significantly...

FWIW

edit.... plus wouldn’t his being at the competing ideological meetings be indicative of an FBI asset?

1587873159_IsthisOswaldattheAlpha66meeting.thumb.jpg.f5d832d9f048262f68f8cb9537b03a42.jpg

Edited by David Josephs

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Very interesting photos David, it does seem a standard Oswald position....and yes, Oswald routinely crossed lines with exile groups but also with multiple FBI targets...not to mention his letters of support and help to both SWP and CPUSA (bitter ideological rivals).

One interesting point in that is that while he definitely turned on Russia in his manuscript, harshly describing it as simply using communist parties for its own nationalistic goals, he appears to have sincerely admired Cuban socialism.  Which means he could probe and  provide information to the FBI on anti-Castro groups in good conscience. Sort of a risky business once they figure  you out though.

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13 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

5) I always believed that Hosty's comments about the FBI observing Oswald meeting with subversives related to the house on Harlendale. Am I wrong?

Nope, you are absolutely right on and I suspect Oswald was there and that the FBI had the place under surveillance..

 

Larry,

 

On March 6, 2016, in a post on Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro in the Education Forum, you wrote about the house on Harlendale,

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/22726-orcarberro/

“The house itself was rented by Jorge Salazar, Vice Sec. of Alpha 66. The burst of traffic in early Nov is what brought it to the attention of Walther's mother. At least one source document that Stu located stated that Veciana had been to the house multiple times on trips to and through Dallas...but we have not been able to corroborate that.

Several of the folks who either lived there or frequented the place - like Oswaldo Aurelio Pino - were either being investigated by the FBI or were FBI sources. There is some reason to believe that the FBI even put the place under at least part time surveillance in November.”

 

I believe that at least one or more of the people attending the bi-weekly meetings at the house were FBI informants, but have you guys learned anything new about FBI surveillance on the house?

 

Steve Thomas

 

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I wish we had Steve but not specifically about the house itself.  Walther's mother (I did have a chance to talk to Walther's some years ago) told him that there were new people down the street from the house who showed up during this time and left immediately after the Cubans did...that's suggestive but the real problem is that we never did obtain the FBI's subversive division files from Dallas...they were never turned over as JFK records nor did FOIA produce anything.  Most likely they were destroyed long ago.  The key agent (Heitman) did even write a book on his career but talked very little about Dallas, and his files are totally missing from the period we would be interested in examining - he was the one investigating exiles as possible subversives.  So - nope, dead end I'm afraid to this point.  We are turning up a few more suggestive things about the DRE visitors to Dallas but its all speculative at this point.  Interestingly I once talked for years with a DPD reserve officer who was in subversive assignments and he told me about his assignment on Nov 22...they were covering white radicals, black radicals etc but as far as he knew Cuban exiles were not even on their radar.  However given their weapons buying efforts, the Cubans definitely were for the FBI.

Edited by Larry Hancock

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6 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

  Interestingly I once talked for years with a DPD reserve officer who was in subversive assignments and he told me about his assignment on Nov 22...they were covering white radicals, black radicals etc but as far as he knew Cuban exiles were not even on their radar.  However given their weapons buying efforts, the Cubans definitely were for the FBI.

Larry,

 

On February 5, 1964, Lt. Jack Revill wrote Jesse Curry a memo detailing the groups that had been put under surveillance prior to JFK's visit.

You can find that list of nine organizations in the DPD Archives Box 13, Folder# 4, Item# 52, pages 1&2.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box13.htm

And yes, your reserve officer was right. There were no Cuban exile groups.

 

Steve Thomas

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Thanks Steve,  of course in some respect it makes sense - but only for DPD.  After all they had experienced right wing violence on several occasions, they even prepared a photo book to use briefing security staff at the TSBD.  The one group that had caused no violence and virtually no profile were the Cuba exiles whom most everyone was sympathetic towards.  However it would be a very different story for the FBI, who was all over the weapons buying efforts, particularly those folks connected to the efforts to buy though Masen (it was Nonte who had triggered first Army intel and then the FBI to develop that sting).   And it was most definitely the DRE that was the primary focus there....it should be noted that many DRE members were also Alpha 66 members and that guys from both factions were routinely visiting the House on Harlandale.

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1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

Thanks Steve,  of course in some respect it makes sense - but only for DPD.  After all they had experienced right wing violence on several occasions, they even prepared a photo book to use briefing security staff at the TSBD.  The one group that had caused no violence and virtually no profile were the Cuba exiles whom most everyone was sympathetic towards.  However it would be a very different story for the FBI, who was all over the weapons buying efforts, particularly those folks connected to the efforts to buy though Masen (it was Nonte who had triggered first Army intel and then the FBI to develop that sting).   And it was most definitely the DRE that was the primary focus there....it should be noted that many DRE members were also Alpha 66 members and that guys from both factions were routinely visiting the House on Harlandale.

Larry,

 

I've come to believe that, for whatever reason,  the Cuban exile situation in Dallas was simply just not on the radar of the DPD's Criminal Intelligence Division.

I've looked at this memo we are discussing and the fact that I believe, with two exceptions; none of the people who were on the list of TSBD employees were in the DPD Intelligence files - including Oswald.

That is also the reason I don't believe that Crichton's 100 men in the 488th included members of the DPD.

However, there were members of the DPD who were in military intelligence, and why they didn't share their knowledge with the Dallas's CID is something I can't explain.

 

Steve Thomas

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Steve, the best I can offer is that officially, the regional Army intelligence unit that did have a routine information exchange with Dallas was the 112th MIG.  We do know that the regional MIG's were tasked with monitoring possible illegal travel to and from Cuba - especially in regard to American students and even FPCC members.  However I suspect their focus in Texas would have been on the port cities, not the interior.  And the 112th's responsibility was broader than Texas, you will recall that it was a 112th unit in New Orleans that collected the leaflet and reported Oswald's first appearance on the docks there...docks which did support Navy ships.

And the 112th did become very much involved with the FBI in regard to Nonte and Masen, participating in the weapons sales sting run against Masen and the DRE. However from an investigative standpoint, they left it to the FBI to carry the ball in that.  I go through all that extensively in SWHT.  I think the point is probably that the illegal activities in question would have been Federal - illegal travel or weapons sales - so the FBI would have been the law enforcement group looking at the exiles.  As far as DPD was concerned, all that was outside their jurisdiction - and pretty much everybody will tell you that if the FBI wants local help they will ask for it but that voluntary information sharing with local law enforcement is not historically much of a priority for them.

All of which leads me back to Hosty and speculation that it was the FBI observing the exiles and the house on Harlandale....they kept that to themselves before the assassination and apparently afterwards as well, regardless of what Hosty remarked to the Secret Service agent. 

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18 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Larry,

 

I've come to believe that, for whatever reason,  the Cuban exile situation in Dallas was simply just not on the radar of the DPD's Criminal Intelligence Division.

I've looked at this memo we are discussing and the fact that I believe, with two exceptions; none of the people who were on the list of TSBD employees were in the DPD Intelligence files - including Oswald.

That is also the reason I don't believe that Crichton's 100 men in the 488th included members of the DPD.

However, there were members of the DPD who were in military intelligence, and why they didn't share their knowledge with the Dallas's CID is something I can't explain.

 

Steve Thomas

Steve - who in DPD do you think were Military Intelligence? If there were some, why not the 488th?

Alpha 66 was being run by Army Intelligence. Veciana was connected to ACSI, as Newman has proved. At least one member of the 488th was a direct agent of ACSI - Brandstetter. 

Since you keep deflecting away from the 488th, and since you’ve stated the reservations you have about the evidence for its existence, what do you think it was? Are you saying it just didn’t exist? 

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If Army Intelligence is running Alpha 66, rather than ‘monitoring them, it might explain why Dallas Police criminal intelligence was not informed, and would explain why Cuban exiles were not on DPD radar as a threat to the President. 

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11 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Steve - who in DPD do you think were Military Intelligence? If there were some, why not the 488th?

Alpha 66 was being run by Army Intelligence. Veciana was connected to ACSI, as Newman has proved. At least one member of the 488th was a direct agent of ACSI - Brandstetter. 

Since you keep deflecting away from the 488th, and since you’ve stated the reservations you have about the evidence for its existence, what do you think it was? Are you saying it just didn’t exist? 

Paul,

 

For sure, George Lumpkin was one. Go back to the Revolt of the Colonels thread:

Headquarters

Department of the Army

26 July 1967

General Orders No. 33

https://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/go6733.pdf

Page 5

(Go to: Publications, Army General Orders, Pub/Form Number DAGO 1967-33, Click download.)

V. Legion of Merit. By direction of the President...for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service is awarded to...

Colonel George L. Lumpkin. Intelligence and Security, United States Army, July, 1960 – June, 1967

 

https://newspaperarchive.com/tags/george-lumpkin/?pc=24581&psi=94&pci=7&pt=23960&ob=1/

image.png.ad62bc5215e151a0392a02d0e06d792d.png

 

There was a real 488th MID, but aside from Brandstetter's books, and Crichton's oral history interview, has anyone ever seen a piece of paper, a file, a document, a budget request, expenditure report, personnel roster, monthly fitness report, requisition for toilet paper with Crichton's 488th name on it? Which part of the U.S. Army's organizational structure did it belong to? You ask anybody who's ever served in the military; there's a chain of command (and God forbid you ever go outside of it :-)).

In his HSCA testimony, Robert E. Jones said, "I directed the operations for seven regions and reported through my Group Commander, to the Security Division of Fourth Army, Deputy Chief of Staff, Intelligence".

Who was Crichton's Group Commander?

 

Steve Thomas

 

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5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

 

For sure, George Lumpkin was one. Go back to the Revolt of the Colonels thread:

Headquarters

Department of the Army

26 July 1967

General Orders No. 33

https://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/go6733.pdf

Page 5

(Go to: Publications, Army General Orders, Pub/Form Number DAGO 1967-33, Click download.)

V. Legion of Merit. By direction of the President...for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service is awarded to...

Colonel George L. Lumpkin. Intelligence and Security, United States Army, July, 1960 – June, 1967

 

https://newspaperarchive.com/tags/george-lumpkin/?pc=24581&psi=94&pci=7&pt=23960&ob=1/

image.png.ad62bc5215e151a0392a02d0e06d792d.png

 

There was a real 488th MID, but aside from Brandstetter's books, and Crichton's oral history interview, has anyone ever seen a piece of paper, a file, a document, a budget request, expenditure report, personnel roster, monthly fitness report, requisition for toilet paper with Crichton's 488th name on it? Which part of the U.S. Army's organizational structure did it belong to? You ask anybody who's ever served in the military; there's a chain of command (and God forbid you ever go outside of it :-)).

In his HSCA testimony, Robert E. Jones said, "I directed the operations for seven regions and reported through my Group Commander, to the Security Division of Fourth Army, Deputy Chief of Staff, Intelligence".

Who was Crichton's Group Commander?

 

Steve Thomas

 

Steve - all good questions, none of which I can answer. But it was real. Remember Jones lied, straight out, to the WC, and they let him get away with it. He had just come on board at the 112th straight from Germany. We discovered that more or less together. 

The history of the 488th has clearly been obscured. It definitely came under the purview of ACSI. It was definitely part of the Continuity of Government bunker under the Dallas fairgrounds. Crichton and Brandstetter are well known figures. 

Heres my point. You keep asking where’s the record in military files, as if that confirms or denies its existence. I keep asking why no records. Because once we conclude it was real the lack of details in military records becomes a red flag, not a reason to doubt. 

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On 1/23/2019 at 2:42 PM, David Josephs said:

Pam, Jeff Woosley of INS was a contact for Hosty...  they all knew the CIA was lying very early on....

if you’ve seen any of my MX stuff you know all of Nov was spent trying to find him

58caec6690c0c_63-10-22FBIMexi105-3702-not1980-124-10230-10424-OCTOBER22-INSWoosleygivestheScottOct16infotoFBI.thumb.jpg.8afcc873809856e222958fb017f21378.jpg

 

So your position is that CIA was deliberately lying to FBI about this?  Why?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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