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Cory Santos

Marina ... pretty agent for LHO?

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4 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

If the man Marina married in Russia was not the American born Lee Harvey Oswald ...  what do we have here

 

Joe,

If you have not read the Furniture Mart episode in the WCR, you may find, after doing so, that there may have been a second, full, Oswald family, in the Dallas area in the fall of 63; of which Marina, the DPD LHO, or both, may not have been aware.

Michael

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Posted (edited)

FBI agent James Hosty, who was assigned to the Oswalds in Dallas,

writes in his book that he was more concerned about Marina than Lee because he thought she

might be KGB. Of course, Hosty may not have been telling the truth, since

he "bungled" the case so badly, and since Oswald was an FBI informant (Henry Wade

told me Oswald last spoke to the FBI a day or two before the assassination, and

it was reported he also spoke with them on November 16 and in the second week of November). We

know about Marina's uncle in Soviet intelligence and how she allegedly had been a "Red Sparrow" and had been kicked

out of Leningrad for prostitution. She may have been a sleeper KGB agent, at least in her initial assignment to go with Oswald to the US, but helped

Ruth Paine set up Oswald for the CIA, so she most likely turned before the assassination. In any case, under extreme pressure from the US government

after the assassination, Marina did whatever was needed to cooperate and stay in the country. Her actions in the next few years show

an attraction to American materialism, but she was probably disoriented and she remains an enigma today. All her changes of

heart don't add up to much of a coherent picture, in my view.

Edited by Joseph McBride

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In answer to Cory’s original question, I’d like to chime in that Marina was a Russian agent, in my opinion.  The Soviet’s would have never let her and “LHO” out of the country so easily had she not been.  Joe’s belief that this “Red Sparrow” may have been turned before the assassination sounds quite possible to me, though in the hall-of-mirrors world of spycraft , how can we ever be certain of things like this?

More evidence that Marina was involved in intelligence affairs is that she befriended not one but two American “defectors” in the Soviet Union in relatively quick succession: Robert Webster and Oswald.  Webster told American author Dick Russell that he and Marina spoke English in the USSR and that her English was good, although she had a heavy accent.

“Lee Harvey Oswald’s” Russian was amazing!  Even if we assume a one-and-only Lee Harvey Oswald had some sort of crash Russian-language training as part of his spy training, his love of reading classic Russian literature in Russian is hard to fathom.  John Armstrong interviewed a number of “Oswald’s” USMC fellow soldiers and was told there was simply no time for him to have seriously studied Russian.  And yet Marina tells us he loved Turgenev!

Consider this from George DeMohrenschildt’s manuscript I’m A Patsy! I'm A Patsy!
 

DeMohren_Russian.jpg

There are ample reasons to distrust DeMohrenschildt, but this pretty much confirms Marina's observation.  Reading Russian authors like Gorki, Dostoevski, Gogol, Tostoi, and Turgenieff in Russian as a leisure activity does not strike me as remotely compatible with the Lee Harvey Oswald we’ve been told about, who would surely be studying the Russian counterpart of Dick and Jane.

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12 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

FBI agent James Hosty, who was assigned to the Oswalds in Dallas,

writes in his book that he was more concerned about Marina than Lee because he thought she

might be KGB. Of course, Hosty may not have been telling the truth, since

he "bungled" the case so badly, and since Oswald was an FBI informant (Henry Wade

told me Oswald last spoke to the FBI a day or two before the assassination, and

it was reported he also spoke with them on November 16 and in the second week of November). We

know about Marina's uncle in Soviet intelligence and how she allegedly had been a "Red Sparrow" and had been kicked

out of Leningrad for prostitution. She may have been a sleeper KGB agent, at least in her initial assignment to go with Oswald to the US, but helped

Ruth Paine set up Oswald for the CIA, so she most likely turned before the assassination. In any case, under extreme pressure from the US government

after the assassination, Marina did whatever was needed to cooperate and stay in the country. Her actions in the next few years show

an attraction to American materialism, but she was probably disoriented and she remains an enigma today. All her changes of

heart don't add up to much of a coherent picture, in my view.

Marina tried her "honey trap" with two previous Americans who participated in the false defector program, but was unsuccessful.  However, she was very persistent with LHO and of course we know the results.

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On 1/5/2019 at 4:27 AM, Adam Johnson said:

What an open, warm and loving women Marina comes across in all her interviews. What a joy it must have been for Lee spending weekends with her and Ruth Paine. 

LHO may have grabbed a clue that there was a lot more to Marina than what she told him, as he seemed to grow more antagonistic to her and distant from her the longer they were in the US.

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On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 8:24 PM, Pamela Brown said:

It is not out of the question that she was.  

But determined of not much value to the KGB for future operations, expendable?   Assigned to LHO to both (initially), to provide intimate knowledge of his operations, and, ultimately to get him out of their hair so to speak?   As they knew he was a false defector for the CIA. 

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7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

But determined of not much value to the KGB for future operations, expendable?   Assigned to LHO to both (initially), to provide intimate knowledge of his operations, and, ultimately to get him out of their hair so to speak?   As they knew he was a false defector for the CIA. 

Never, ever believe anything until officially denied...

Then you can take it to the bank....

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Posted (edited)

I changed my earlier statement on Marina to this is order to clarify what I was thinking:

  • John Butler
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Marina Oswald- Soviet Agent  --------> Double Agent ------------> Triple Agent/Double Agent.

Soviet Agent-  Marry American in order to get to the US , doesn't matter who she marries (Webster?) but, ends up with Oswald(s)

Double Agent-  Go over to the US and support Oswald in Russia in the Project Oswald/defection/spy plan and have multiple Oswald husbands

Triple Agent/Double Agent-  On gaining access to the US revert to Soviet Agent Status to monitor Oswald and other agents.  After the assassination say whatever was needed to remain in the US and keep the Soviets out of it.

Was Marina a Soviet Agent willing to "prostitute" herself for the greater glories of the state and communism?  A good soldier?

This is what I think or speculate.

Edited by John Butler

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21 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

But determined of not much value to the KGB for future operations, expendable?   Assigned to LHO to both (initially), to provide intimate knowledge of his operations, and, ultimately to get him out of their hair so to speak?   As they knew he was a false defector for the CIA. 

Not necessarily. To keep tabs on him and, in effect, control him, to make sure he would end up what LHO said he was...a patsy...

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On 1/6/2019 at 1:23 AM, Joseph McBride said:

FBI agent James Hosty, who was assigned to the Oswalds in Dallas,

writes in his book that he was more concerned about Marina than Lee because he thought she

might be KGB. Of course, Hosty may not have been telling the truth, since

he "bungled" the case so badly, and since Oswald was an FBI informant (Henry Wade

told me Oswald last spoke to the FBI a day or two before the assassination, and

it was reported he also spoke with them on November 16 and in the second week of November). We

know about Marina's uncle in Soviet intelligence and how she allegedly had been a "Red Sparrow" and had been kicked

out of Leningrad for prostitution. She may have been a sleeper KGB agent, at least in her initial assignment to go with Oswald to the US, but helped

Ruth Paine set up Oswald for the CIA, so she most likely turned before the assassination. In any case, under extreme pressure from the US government

after the assassination, Marina did whatever was needed to cooperate and stay in the country. Her actions in the next few years show

an attraction to American materialism, but she was probably disoriented and she remains an enigma today. All her changes of

heart don't add up to much of a coherent picture, in my view.

Hosty said to me that he had not spoken with LHO until after his arrest.  

I do agree that Marina is far more complex than most people understand.  I have a blog, Marina Enigma...http://marinaenigma.blogspot.com/#!

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3 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

Hosty said to me that he had not spoken with LHO until after his arrest.  

I do agree that Marina is far more complex than most people understand.  I have a blog, Marina Enigma...http://marinaenigma.blogspot.com/#!

Pamela,

 

In an earlier post, you wrote, " Not necessarily. To keep tabs on him and, in effect, control him, to make sure he would end up what LHO said he was...a patsy... "

I haven't read your blog yet, so my question might be presumptuous, but do you think it's possible that Marina was sent to the U.S. on a mission that had nothing to do with Oswald; that he was simply a means to an end - she was sent here to either give information to, or get information from someone?

I ask that because I get the impression she seemed to be anxious to put as much distance between her and Oswald as possible as soon as she got over here:

a) her living in various homes.

b) her indifference to where Oswald was living in the late fall of 1962.

c) her attempt to return to the USSR as early as January of 1963 - six months after getting here - was her mission completed?

There was that weird "vacation" she took alone in Russia just six months after she and Oswald were married. Was she getting her briefing?

 

Steve Thomas

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On 1/8/2019 at 1:20 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Pamela,

 

In an earlier post, you wrote, " Not necessarily. To keep tabs on him and, in effect, control him, to make sure he would end up what LHO said he was...a patsy... "

I haven't read your blog yet, so my question might be presumptuous, but do you think it's possible that Marina was sent to the U.S. on a mission that had nothing to do with Oswald; that he was simply a means to an end - she was sent here to either give information to, or get information from someone?

I ask that because I get the impression she seemed to be anxious to put as much distance between her and Oswald as possible as soon as she got over here:

a) her living in various homes.

b) her indifference to where Oswald was living in the late fall of 1962.

c) her attempt to return to the USSR as early as January of 1963 - six months after getting here - was her mission completed?

There was that weird "vacation" she took alone in Russia just six months after she and Oswald were married. Was she getting her briefing?

 

Steve Thomas

Hi Steve,

I tend to see things the other way around -- that LHO originally thought Marina would give him credibility and would support him, but slowly began to realize there was something else going on that he was not supposed to be aware of.  Once they moved to NOLA, there were spans of time when Marina said she didn't know where Lee was.  He didn't tell her he was fired from Reily Coffee right away either.  Once they returned to Dallas, they lived separately.  LHO tried to get Marina to return to the USSR without him. When LHO was arrested, he called himself a "patsy".  I think he knew who set him up.  

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On 1/7/2019 at 12:01 AM, Ron Bulman said:

But determined of not much value to the KGB for future operations, expendable?   Assigned to LHO to both (initially), to provide intimate knowledge of his operations, and, ultimately to get him out of their hair so to speak?   As they knew he was a false defector for the CIA. 

I am not giving any credibility to LHO being part of a 'false defector' group.  I think he was a self-made traitor, who promised to give up classified secrets in exchange for Soviet citizenship.  I do think that KGB saw LHO as someone who could be used to their advantage, and hence, Marina, the honey-pot, conveniently appeared.  I think he was being set up for possible use as a patsy, which was what he called himself after he was arrested. 

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On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 9:55 PM, Pamela Brown said:

LHO may have grabbed a clue that there was a lot more to Marina than what she told him, as he seemed to grow more antagonistic to her and distant from her the longer they were in the US.

No, I think their rocky relationship had to do with money problems.  My former cello teacher, Lev Aronson was part of the Dallas Russian speaking community and they didn't like Lee at all and how he treated Marina.  Marina had her own issues.  She was very self-conscious about having bad teeth and was frustrated that Lee didn't have the money to fix them.  Marina was opportunistic and thought coming to the United States with Lee would solve a lot of her problems.  She not only faced culture shock but also reality clash.

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The entire Lee and Marina relationship, especially their time together back here in the States, is such a crazy poverty stricken and stressed enigma that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes would have a tough time figuring it out.

Much of Marina and Lee's time together here was so financially desperate and dependent on others and their personal relationship so strained and stressed and even chaotic.

And imagine a young wife being told by a sweating and harried husband late one evening he just took a rifle shot at a major political figure trying to kill him? 

How shook up, confused and scared would a normal young mother have been knowing her husband was that violence prone crazy?

She would rationally be fearing what would happen to her and their child if her husband were arrested for this most serious crime.  Throw in Lee's plan to hijack a plane to get to Cuba?

Marina was so depressed in her relationship with Lee she made an attempt to kill herself ( feeble as it may have been ) and which resulted in an angry Oswald chastising her and maybe even slapping her for this.

What other covert agenda Marina may have been assigned must have been very hard to implement for this young mother in a foreign land considering the chaos of her married life with Lee.

I believe Marina did not love Lee. Especially the more their times together became more and more stressed financially and personally. And the more she was interacting with the Dallas White Russians, the more she realized she had to eventually break from Lee.

I don't think Marina liked Ruth Paine either, but she had no other living arrangement options at the time.

And Lee's mother must have seemed even more unpleasant for her as well.

Wonder what would have happened to Marina if 11,22,1963 had never happened?

As it was, incredibly, she came into significant financial gain and a very good life relative to the chaos of her life with Lee.

Marina was further manipulated by P.J. McMillan which just adds another crazy aspect to this incredible story.

Who was Marina Prusakova Oswald Porter?

She is a true mystery.

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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