Marina ... pretty agent for LHO?

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 8:24 PM, Pamela Brown said:

It is not out of the question that she was.  

But determined of not much value to the KGB for future operations, expendable?   Assigned to LHO to both (initially), to provide intimate knowledge of his operations, and, ultimately to get him out of their hair so to speak?   As they knew he was a false defector for the CIA. 

[David Josephs]

7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

But determined of not much value to the KGB for future operations, expendable?   Assigned to LHO to both (initially), to provide intimate knowledge of his operations, and, ultimately to get him out of their hair so to speak?   As they knew he was a false defector for the CIA. 

Never, ever believe anything until officially denied...

Then you can take it to the bank....

[John Butler]

I changed my earlier statement on Marina to this is order to clarify what I was thinking:

• 
• Members
•  
• 619 posts
• Gender:Male

• Report post
•  

Posted Saturday at 10:26 AM (edited)

Marina Oswald- Soviet Agent  --------> Double Agent ------------> Triple Agent/Double Agent.

Soviet Agent-  Marry American in order to get to the US , doesn't matter who she marries (Webster?) but, ends up with Oswald(s)

Double Agent-  Go over to the US and support Oswald in Russia in the Project Oswald/defection/spy plan and have multiple Oswald husbands

Triple Agent/Double Agent-  On gaining access to the US revert to Soviet Agent Status to monitor Oswald and other agents.  After the assassination say whatever was needed to remain in the US and keep the Soviets out of it.

Was Marina a Soviet Agent willing to "prostitute" herself for the greater glories of the state and communism?  A good soldier?

This is what I think or speculate.

Edited January 8, 2019 by John Butler

[Pamela Brown]

21 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

But determined of not much value to the KGB for future operations, expendable?   Assigned to LHO to both (initially), to provide intimate knowledge of his operations, and, ultimately to get him out of their hair so to speak?   As they knew he was a false defector for the CIA. 

Not necessarily. To keep tabs on him and, in effect, control him, to make sure he would end up what LHO said he was...a patsy...

[Pamela Brown]

On 1/6/2019 at 1:23 AM, Joseph McBride said:

FBI agent James Hosty, who was assigned to the Oswalds in Dallas,

writes in his book that he was more concerned about Marina than Lee because he thought she

might be KGB. Of course, Hosty may not have been telling the truth, since

he "bungled" the case so badly, and since Oswald was an FBI informant (Henry Wade

told me Oswald last spoke to the FBI a day or two before the assassination, and

it was reported he also spoke with them on November 16 and in the second week of November). We

know about Marina's uncle in Soviet intelligence and how she allegedly had been a "Red Sparrow" and had been kicked

out of Leningrad for prostitution. She may have been a sleeper KGB agent, at least in her initial assignment to go with Oswald to the US, but helped

Ruth Paine set up Oswald for the CIA, so she most likely turned before the assassination. In any case, under extreme pressure from the US government

after the assassination, Marina did whatever was needed to cooperate and stay in the country. Her actions in the next few years show

an attraction to American materialism, but she was probably disoriented and she remains an enigma today. All her changes of

heart don't add up to much of a coherent picture, in my view.

Hosty said to me that he had not spoken with LHO until after his arrest.  

I do agree that Marina is far more complex than most people understand.  I have a blog, Marina Enigma...http://marinaenigma.blogspot.com/#!

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

Hosty said to me that he had not spoken with LHO until after his arrest.  

I do agree that Marina is far more complex than most people understand.  I have a blog, Marina Enigma...http://marinaenigma.blogspot.com/#!

Pamela,

 

In an earlier post, you wrote, " Not necessarily. To keep tabs on him and, in effect, control him, to make sure he would end up what LHO said he was...a patsy... "

I haven't read your blog yet, so my question might be presumptuous, but do you think it's possible that Marina was sent to the U.S. on a mission that had nothing to do with Oswald; that he was simply a means to an end - she was sent here to either give information to, or get information from someone?

I ask that because I get the impression she seemed to be anxious to put as much distance between her and Oswald as possible as soon as she got over here:

a) her living in various homes.

b) her indifference to where Oswald was living in the late fall of 1962.

c) her attempt to return to the USSR as early as January of 1963 - six months after getting here - was her mission completed?

There was that weird "vacation" she took alone in Russia just six months after she and Oswald were married. Was she getting her briefing?

 

Steve Thomas

[Pamela Brown]

On 1/8/2019 at 1:20 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Pamela,

 

In an earlier post, you wrote, " Not necessarily. To keep tabs on him and, in effect, control him, to make sure he would end up what LHO said he was...a patsy... "

I haven't read your blog yet, so my question might be presumptuous, but do you think it's possible that Marina was sent to the U.S. on a mission that had nothing to do with Oswald; that he was simply a means to an end - she was sent here to either give information to, or get information from someone?

I ask that because I get the impression she seemed to be anxious to put as much distance between her and Oswald as possible as soon as she got over here:

a) her living in various homes.

b) her indifference to where Oswald was living in the late fall of 1962.

c) her attempt to return to the USSR as early as January of 1963 - six months after getting here - was her mission completed?

There was that weird "vacation" she took alone in Russia just six months after she and Oswald were married. Was she getting her briefing?

 

Steve Thomas

Hi Steve,

I tend to see things the other way around -- that LHO originally thought Marina would give him credibility and would support him, but slowly began to realize there was something else going on that he was not supposed to be aware of.  Once they moved to NOLA, there were spans of time when Marina said she didn't know where Lee was.  He didn't tell her he was fired from Reily Coffee right away either.  Once they returned to Dallas, they lived separately.  LHO tried to get Marina to return to the USSR without him. When LHO was arrested, he called himself a "patsy".  I think he knew who set him up.  

[Pamela Brown]

On 1/7/2019 at 12:01 AM, Ron Bulman said:

But determined of not much value to the KGB for future operations, expendable?   Assigned to LHO to both (initially), to provide intimate knowledge of his operations, and, ultimately to get him out of their hair so to speak?   As they knew he was a false defector for the CIA. 

I am not giving any credibility to LHO being part of a 'false defector' group.  I think he was a self-made traitor, who promised to give up classified secrets in exchange for Soviet citizenship.  I do think that KGB saw LHO as someone who could be used to their advantage, and hence, Marina, the honey-pot, conveniently appeared.  I think he was being set up for possible use as a patsy, which was what he called himself after he was arrested. 

[Joe Bauer]

The entire Lee and Marina relationship, especially their time together back here in the States, is such a crazy poverty stricken and stressed enigma that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes would have a tough time figuring it out.

Much of Marina and Lee's time together here was so financially desperate and dependent on others and their personal relationship so strained and stressed and even chaotic.

And imagine a young wife being told by a sweating and harried husband late one evening he just took a rifle shot at a major political figure trying to kill him? 

How shook up, confused and scared would a normal young mother have been knowing her husband was that violence prone crazy?

She would rationally be fearing what would happen to her and their child if her husband were arrested for this most serious crime.  Throw in Lee's plan to hijack a plane to get to Cuba?

Marina was so depressed in her relationship with Lee she made an attempt to kill herself ( feeble as it may have been ) and which resulted in an angry Oswald chastising her and maybe even slapping her for this.

What other covert agenda Marina may have been assigned must have been very hard to implement for this young mother in a foreign land considering the chaos of her married life with Lee.

I believe Marina did not love Lee. Especially the more their times together became more and more stressed financially and personally. And the more she was interacting with the Dallas White Russians, the more she realized she had to eventually break from Lee.

I don't think Marina liked Ruth Paine either, but she had no other living arrangement options at the time.

And Lee's mother must have seemed even more unpleasant for her as well.

Wonder what would have happened to Marina if 11,22,1963 had never happened?

As it was, incredibly, she came into significant financial gain and a very good life relative to the chaos of her life with Lee.

Marina was further manipulated by P.J. McMillan which just adds another crazy aspect to this incredible story.

Who was Marina Prusakova Oswald Porter?

She is a true mystery.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[David Andrews]

How did Marina support herself and her daughters during the years after the Porter marriage?

[Paul Brancato]

On 1/7/2019 at 7:46 PM, Pamela Brown said:

Hosty said to me that he had not spoken with LHO until after his arrest.  

I do agree that Marina is far more complex than most people understand.  I have a blog, Marina Enigma...http://marinaenigma.blogspot.com/#!

I just read your blog entry. I’m getting more interested in Marina as I read through this thread, and especially in light of the Salandria article that Steve Thomas linked on another thread called Multiple Plots. Have you read it? If not take a look. I’d link it here if I had a clue how. 

For decades I’ve dismissed the idea that Marina was a sleeper agent or KGB, primarily because I see Oswald as a patsy, not a killer. But now I’m rethinking this. If one just looks at the basic facts without reference to Oswald’s guilt, or his defector status, it seems rather obvious that there was more than met the eye. It doesn’t make sense that she met another defector, or that she found it so easy to leave the USSR, as simply a private Russian citizen. You’re surmise is most interesting, which is that she was somehow Oswald’s control agent. It’s also understandable that if she did have an Intelligence function at the time she would still be silent on that, and that she would now be professing his innocence.

i hope I’m not reading too much into your blog post. I’m fascinated by the idea that she was part of the operation that set Oswald up as the patsy. What would it imply if that was the case? Here I’m going to refer to Salandria’s article, in which he asks if it is “irrational to suggest that the Soviet and American Intelligences cooperated in the killing of the president?” He goes on to say “I don’t see the Cold War as authentic. Rather I view it as a cooperative effort to foist on both the American and Russian civilian populations an enormous military-Intelligence budget”. This idea does not seem strange to me at all. What Salandria doesn’t mention in his great article is the possibility that Angleton could be the lynchpin in all this, possibly because not enough was known at the time he wrote the article. That’s only conjecture on my part. 

[David Andrews]

“I don’t see the Cold War as authentic. Rather I view it as a cooperative effort to foist on both the American and Russian civilian populations an enormous military-Intelligence budget”.

It's been suggested here on the Forum in the past, re: Salandria or or otherwise.  Usually people point upward to international finance as the creator of competing economic-philosophical systems.

[Ron Bulman]

21 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

“I don’t see the Cold War as authentic. Rather I view it as a cooperative effort to foist on both the American and Russian civilian populations an enormous military-Intelligence budget”.

It's been suggested here on the Forum in the past, re: Salandria or or otherwise.  Usually people point upward to international finance as the creator of competing economic-philosophical systems.

"upward to international finance"  Rothchild's, Rockefeller's, DuPont's Bushes etc.? 

[David Andrews]

10 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

"upward to international finance"  Rothchild's, Rockefeller's, DuPont's Bushes etc.? 

Like that.  The legend is that Marx was elevated to an econo-philosophical founding father at the interest of high profiteers who wanted competing systems to sell war materiel to.  Among the supposed deceived masses, Communism would have been seen as a way to achieve modern society and destroy feudalism in Europe.  No one counted on human weakness among the newly strengthened.  And this just in: the rising backlash of Euro-fascism, supposedly also funded by....

Remembering also the legend that one of the Rothschilds made his fortune by knowing the outcome of Waterloo before the London Exchange did.  Supposedly one messenger on fast horses and a fast Channel boat got to London ahead of the dispatches, allowing Rothschild an edge on other investor decisions.

Edited January 14, 2019 by David Andrews

[B. A. Copeland]

So then...could her marriage to Porter be considered almost a Counterintelligence play to some extent? Speculative reasoning but I couldn’t help but wonder given that amazing blog post (thanks Steve!)

Edited January 15, 2019 by B. A. Copeland