Joe Bauer Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 I want to address what I now see as a possible contradiction in my first post where I stated my assumption that Marina might very well have wanted to come to America because of it's attraction as a materially wealthy and more glamorous society than the relatively more drab Soviet one. I have been reading Marina's testimony to the HSCA in 1978. Among Marina's answers to questions about her wanting to come to the U.S., she states if she knew Lee was wanting to come back to the U.S. she "would not have married him." !!! Marina states that coming to the U.S. was not the reason she married Lee. She seems to indicate in her HSCA testimony she was ambivalent about coming to America. Marina then makes a comment about "hating the U.S." which I really couldn't make out the context of. I really should have done at least a minimum of further reading of Marina's testimonies in their entirety before expressing my assumptions about her feelings and motivations during her life here with Lee. Marina becomes even more of a mystery when I do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. A. Copeland Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 (edited) I’ve seen it stated here a couple times that LHO may have treated Marina badly (physical abuse, etc) whereas Robert Charles Dunne gave a very good (seemingly, in my mind anyway) defense against the popular claim that LHO abused Marina. I’d encourage anyone to take a look and analyze it for yourselves. I’m cautious to call LHO “abusive”, etc. K&K (kennedysandking) reproduced the post found here at the EF: https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/was-oswald-a-serial-wife-batterer Its a great (and pretty funny to me) yet powerful analysis of the abuse claims. Edited January 18, 2019 by B. A. Copeland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 On 1/17/2019 at 6:04 PM, B. A. Copeland said: I’ve seen it stated here a couple times that LHO may have treated Marina badly (physical abuse, etc) whereas Robert Charles Dunne gave a very good (seemingly, in my mind anyway) defense against the popular claim that LHO abused Marina. B.A., I have seriously looked at the possibility that it was Marina who ordered the rifle. It goes back to the idea that Lee Oswald freely admitted that the Selective Service card in the name of Hidell was his, but denied that it was his signature on that card. The logic of that escapes me, unless he was covering up for someone. Marina admitted to signing the name “Hidell” to “two or three things” with the name “Hidell” that were not pamphlets. CE 2726 p. 105 (26H105) https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=141&tab=page is a June 17, 1964 letter from Hoover to J. Lee Rankin concerning Marina's signature on the A.J. Hidell signature on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee membership card. The FBI determined that Marina signed the FPCC membership card in the name of A.J. Hidell. Hoover says that Exhibits 404A, 408A, 409A and 420 are being returned to you. These are samples of Marina's handwriting. Marina's 1969 testimony at the Clay Shaw trial: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/marinash.htm Q: Did you sign anything for him down here? A: Yes, sir. Q: What did you sign? A: Some kind of paper about something, but I don't remember what it was. Q: Would you recall -- A: The name Hidell. Q: Hidell? A: Yes. Q: You signed the name, Hidell? A: Yes, sir. Q: And what was your purpose of doing that? A: He asked me to do it and I refused, and then he forced me to do it. Q: What do you mean, forced you? A: He threatened me if I wouldn't do it he use, you know -- how shall I say? Q: Physical threats? A: Physical threats, yes, sir. Why was it necessary to get the name "Hidell" just right? In what other instance was it important that the name "Hidell" look just right? Now, you can either believe that Marina was practicing how to write the name Hidell because Lee threatened to beat her up if she didn't, or you can believe that this was a forger practicing her craft. On at least three occasions in her testimony, Marina said they were living on Neely St. in January of 1963. Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment? Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly. Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle? Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February. For whatever reason, this can't be true. The Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12th. Current Section: CE 1156 - FBI report dated February 18, 1964, of interview of Marina Oswald, Dallas, Tex. (CD 735, pp. 439-445). http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227 Marina told the FBI on February 17, 1964 that she saw Oswald practicing with the rifle at the Neely Street address at the beginning of January, 1963. 9(CE 1156 p. 197). On February 18, 1964 she told the FBI that she was mistaken about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had taken place in March, 1963. Here are the rifle order and the Hidell Selective Service card signatures: Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 (edited) On 1/19/2019 at 7:21 AM, Steve Thomas said: CE 2726 p. 105 (26H105) https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=141&tab=page is a June 17, 1964 letter from Hoover to J. Lee Rankin concerning Marina's signature on the A.J. Hidell signature on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee membership card. The FBI determined that Marina signed the FPCC membership card in the name of A.J. Hidell. Hoover says that Exhibits 404A, 408A, 409A and 420 are being returned to you. These are samples of Marina's handwriting. Deleted Steve Thomas Edited March 3, 2023 by Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 I have to remind myself when reading about and discussing Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina how young they were through all the craziness of the JFK event. Oswald just turned 24 one month before 11,22,1963. He was 22 when he returned from Russia with Marina and Baby June. Marina was just 20 when she came to America and 22 when JFK was killed. I am so old now that I sometimes forget how naive, unsophisticated and unwise to the ways of the world I was at their ages back in the early 60's. I was also very poor with no education or family support and only qualified for minimum wage jobs myself until I was closer to 25 to 30. It was all I could do to barely pay rent on cheap apartments and drive the cheapest junk cars. It was a fairly deprived and at times depressing existence. My young age and decent youthful health and energy carried me with hope for the future. However, if I had fathered a child and had a stay-at-home wife with baby to support during those hard times...I simply couldn't have made it. I purposely avoided marriage and kids until I got at least to a level of providing that would allow my family to live in safer areas versus the poorest. This financially struggling everyday life reality of Lee Oswald and Marina ( which I experienced myself ) and their very young ages at the time ( when I think about it ) does weigh on my speculations regards L.O. and Marina in at least a few areas of suspicion about their supposed secret and nefarious behavior and roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. A. Copeland Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 On 1/19/2019 at 5:21 AM, Steve Thomas said: B.A., I have seriously looked at the possibility that it was Marina who ordered the rifle. It goes back to the idea that Lee Oswald freely admitted that the Selective Service card in the name of Hidell was his, but denied that it was his signature on that card. The logic of that escapes me, unless he was covering up for someone. Marina admitted to signing the name “Hidell” to “two or three things” with the name “Hidell” that were not pamphlets. CE 2726 p. 105 (26H105) https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=141&tab=page is a June 17, 1964 letter from Hoover to J. Lee Rankin concerning Marina's signature on the A.J. Hidell signature on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee membership card. The FBI determined that Marina signed the FPCC membership card in the name of A.J. Hidell. Hoover says that Exhibits 404A, 408A, 409A and 420 are being returned to you. These are samples of Marina's handwriting. Marina's 1969 testimony at the Clay Shaw trial: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/marinash.htm Q: Did you sign anything for him down here? A: Yes, sir. Q: What did you sign? A: Some kind of paper about something, but I don't remember what it was. Q: Would you recall -- A: The name Hidell. Q: Hidell? A: Yes. Q: You signed the name, Hidell? A: Yes, sir. Q: And what was your purpose of doing that? A: He asked me to do it and I refused, and then he forced me to do it. Q: What do you mean, forced you? A: He threatened me if I wouldn't do it he use, you know -- how shall I say? Q: Physical threats? A: Physical threats, yes, sir. Why was it necessary to get the name "Hidell" just right? In what other instance was it important that the name "Hidell" look just right? Now, you can either believe that Marina was practicing how to write the name Hidell because Lee threatened to beat her up if she didn't, or you can believe that this was a forger practicing her craft. On at least three occasions in her testimony, Marina said they were living on Neely St. in January of 1963. Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment? Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly. Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle? Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February. For whatever reason, this can't be true. The Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12th. Current Section: CE 1156 - FBI report dated February 18, 1964, of interview of Marina Oswald, Dallas, Tex. (CD 735, pp. 439-445). http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227 Marina told the FBI on February 17, 1964 that she saw Oswald practicing with the rifle at the Neely Street address at the beginning of January, 1963. 9(CE 1156 p. 197). On February 18, 1964 she told the FBI that she was mistaken about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had taken place in March, 1963. Here are the rifle order and the Hidell Selective Service card signatures: Steve Thomas That is deeply fascinating Steve, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Why would Marina forge Lee's real name or alias signature on any documents at all? Was she asked or pressured to this by Lee? If so, why would he do this? If not, why would Marina do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. A. Copeland Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 On 1/25/2019 at 3:32 PM, Rich Pope said: Lee struck his wife on several occasions. He not only physically abused her, he emotionally abused her as well. Anyone who says anything different is just wrong. Again Rich, we should deal with what Dunne presented and be cautious of those claims. I'm open that Lee did it but Dunne presented a good evidence-based argument against those popular LHO abuse claims as well is all I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Krome Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 On 1/5/2019 at 6:27 PM, Adam Johnson said: What an open, warm and loving women Marina comes across in all her interviews. Marina ... She says she knew Lee had a rifle and that he used it in an attempted murder She says she knew the rifle was lying about in the Paine garage She says she knew the rifle was wrapped in a blanket that her daughter loved to play with Mrs. OSWALD. This is still from Russia. June loved to play with that blanket. Mr. RANKIN. Was that the blanket that your husband used to cover up the rifle? Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We didn't use this blanket as a cover. He used it for the rifle. She says she knew the children played near the rifle Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else close to the rifle that you recall? Mrs. OSWALD. Next to it there were some next to the rifle there were some suitcases and Ruth had some paper barrels in the garage where the kids used to play. Was the rifle loaded? Who knows, I doubt Marina knew either How easy would it have been for June or any child to access that rifle? Two scenarios here ... 1. Irresponsible and clueless mother 2. No rifle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 3 hours ago, Tony Krome said: Marina ... She says she knew the rifle was wrapped in a blanket that her daughter loved to play with Tony, Ask Marina where the rifle was when they lived on Neely. If I have this straight, Marina first saw the rifle in February, before it had even been purchased. She first told the FBI that she saw Lee cleaning the rifle in January, but then later told them that she was mistaken and that the cleaning had taken place in March. It was kept out in the open, but maybe he kept it outside. Or maybe he kept it in a disassembled state on a shelf in the closet. She never actually saw him take the rifle away from the apartment and never talks about seeing him bring it back. Lee took the rifle on Sunday, but the shooting wasn't until Wednesday. Where was the rifle in the meantime? She said that Lee had told her her buried the rifle after the shooting. When did he go back and dig it up? When she saw the rifle, it didn't have a scope on it, but knew it had a scope because she recognized it. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Here is the translation of CE993, Marina's Narrative of life with Lee: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=610&tab=page I started reading this narrative, and was immediately struck by how similar it is in linguistic style to Oswald's Daily Diary. Read his entry for October 21st, when he attempts "suicide" to the sound of violins playing. https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_24.pdf Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Krome Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said: Tony, Ask Marina where the rifle was when they lived on Neely. If I have this straight, Marina first saw the rifle in February, before it had even been purchased. She first told the FBI that she saw Lee cleaning the rifle in January, but then later told them that she was mistaken and that the cleaning had taken place in March. It was kept out in the open, but maybe he kept it outside. Or maybe he kept it in a disassembled state on a shelf in the closet. She never actually saw him take the rifle away from the apartment and never talks about seeing him bring it back. Lee took the rifle on Sunday, but the shooting wasn't until Wednesday. Where was the rifle in the meantime? She said that Lee had told her her buried the rifle after the shooting. When did he go back and dig it up? When she saw the rifle, it didn't have a scope on it, but knew it had a scope because she recognized it. Steve Thomas Hey Steve, would yourself or anyone be able to refresh my memory on who said something along the lines of "by the time they got that rifle thing sorted out" or similar. It was in reference to the confusion regarding the rifle types that extended into the weekend after the 22nd. I thought it was Ruby or maybe Fritz?? Edited January 29, 2019 by Tony Krome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 2 hours ago, Tony Krome said: Marina first saw the rifle in February, before it had even been purchased. She first told the FBI that she saw Lee cleaning the rifle in January, Tony - I ask that you examine one quite obvious question about Marina's reliability when it comes to her testimony... Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with the rifle and the pistol?Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I took any pictures.I don't know how to take pictures. He gave me a camera and asked me someone should ask me how to photograph, I don't know. .....At the time' that I was questioned, I had even forgotten that I had taken two photographs. I thought there was only one. I thought that there were two identical pictures, but they turned out to be two different poses. Mr. McDONALD. Did you use a tripod at all? Mrs. PORTER. Did I use what? Mr. McDONALD. A tripod. In other words, was the camera attached to a stand? Mrs. PORTER. No. Mr. McDONALD. OK. You held it in your hands. Mrs. PORTER. Yes. Q. How many pictures did you take? A. I think I took two. Q. When you took the first picture you held it up to your eye? A. Yes; that is what I recall. Q. What did you do next? A. I believe he did something with it and told me to push it again. Q. Are these the only two pictures you ever took in your life at least up to that time? A. Yes. So I would ask simply how anyone including Marina, could use this type of camera which requires the user to place the camera about chest high and look down into a viewfinder which shows the image upside-down FOR THE FIRST AND ONLY TIME IN HER LIFE TO THAT POINT, and not make a single mention of the image, the difficulty in even taking such a photo and the fact that despite supposedly moving and adjusting between photos, gets the images to show virtually identical backgrounds....? I would also ask anyone to reconcile how - if a rifle is sent to OSWALD in March 1963, how the FBI nor the USPS makes any mention of it? We have detailed reports of the mail to and from Oswald all thru 1963, especially in Feb/March/April/May as he is moving all over the place.... Why isn't the FBI or the USPS aware of a 5 foot carton from KLEIN SPORTING GOODS delivered to Oswald's PO BOX for HIDELL ? And just to come full circle... "CE137 is 2 items: a camera and a case... CE138 is supposedly a single item, a flash attachment. Can you say "Minox"? Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 137 is a camera in a leather case.Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen that camera before?Mrs. OSWALD. No.Mr. DULLES. Is that a Russian camera?Mrs. OSWALD. No.(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 137 for identification.) Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 138 is a flash attachment for some type of camera. It is an Ansco flash attachment.Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen it.(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit' No. 138 for identification.) So Tony, Had you ever noticed that CE137 and 138 do not exist? + 511 CE 136 - Camera. + 512 CE 139 - Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, serial No. C2766 (this rifle will subsequently be referred to as "the C2766" rifle). + 512 CE 140 - Green and brown blanket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 1 hour ago, David Josephs said: And just to come full circle... "CE137 is 2 items: a camera and a case... CE138 is supposedly a single item, a flash attachment. Can you say "Minox"? Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 137 is a camera in a leather case.(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 137 for identification.) Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 138 is a flash attachment for some type of camera. It is an Ansco flash attachment.Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen it.(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit' No. 138 for identification.) So Tony, Had you ever noticed that CE137 and 138 do not exist? + 511 CE 136 - Camera. + 512 CE 139 - Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, serial No. C2766 (this rifle will subsequently be referred to as "the C2766" rifle). + 512 CE 140 - Green and brown blanket. David, I like this one: TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 6, 1964 Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 135. The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted. (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 135, and received in evidence.) Mr. RANKIN. I call the Commission's attention to the fact that this is the coupon under which it appears the rifle was ordered, showing an enclosed $10 notation--"Check for $29.95, A. G. Hidell, age 28, post office box 2915, Dallas, Texas" And it is marked, "One quantity. Point 38 ST. W. 2 inch barrel, 29.95." and underlined is 29.95, and an arrow at that point. Exhibit 135 is an order form for the pistol, not the rifle. CE 773 was the Klein's Order Form for the Rifle CE 788 was the Postal Money Order for the Rifle Marina is not shown either the Hidell Selective Service card or the rifle order form. (Those would have been necessary in order to ask if that was her signature on those forms) Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said: Point 38 ST. W. 2 inch barrel, 29.95. Couple things Steve... First - REA never collects the shipping - a freebie I guess And what they claimed to have shipped was a $39.95 .38 S&W Spec What's a .38 St. W Spec?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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