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Cory Santos

Marina ... pretty agent for LHO?

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On 1/7/2019 at 7:46 PM, Pamela Brown said:

Hosty said to me that he had not spoken with LHO until after his arrest.  

I do agree that Marina is far more complex than most people understand.  I have a blog, Marina Enigma...http://marinaenigma.blogspot.com/#!

I just read your blog entry. I’m getting more interested in Marina as I read through this thread, and especially in light of the Salandria article that Steve Thomas linked on another thread called Multiple Plots. Have you read it? If not take a look. I’d link it here if I had a clue how. 

For decades I’ve dismissed the idea that Marina was a sleeper agent or KGB, primarily because I see Oswald as a patsy, not a killer. But now I’m rethinking this. If one just looks at the basic facts without reference to Oswald’s guilt, or his defector status, it seems rather obvious that there was more than met the eye. It doesn’t make sense that she met another defector, or that she found it so easy to leave the USSR, as simply a private Russian citizen. You’re surmise is most interesting, which is that she was somehow Oswald’s control agent. It’s also understandable that if she did have an Intelligence function at the time she would still be silent on that, and that she would now be professing his innocence.

i hope I’m not reading too much into your blog post. I’m fascinated by the idea that she was part of the operation that set Oswald up as the patsy. What would it imply if that was the case? Here I’m going to refer to Salandria’s article, in which he asks if it is “irrational to suggest that the Soviet and American Intelligences cooperated in the killing of the president?” He goes on to say “I don’t see the Cold War as authentic. Rather I view it as a cooperative effort to foist on both the American and Russian civilian populations an enormous military-Intelligence budget”. This idea does not seem strange to me at all. What Salandria doesn’t mention in his great article is the possibility that Angleton could be the lynchpin in all this, possibly because not enough was known at the time he wrote the article. That’s only conjecture on my part. 

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“I don’t see the Cold War as authentic. Rather I view it as a cooperative effort to foist on both the American and Russian civilian populations an enormous military-Intelligence budget”.

It's been suggested here on the Forum in the past, re: Salandria or or otherwise.  Usually people point upward to international finance as the creator of competing economic-philosophical systems.

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21 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

“I don’t see the Cold War as authentic. Rather I view it as a cooperative effort to foist on both the American and Russian civilian populations an enormous military-Intelligence budget”.

It's been suggested here on the Forum in the past, re: Salandria or or otherwise.  Usually people point upward to international finance as the creator of competing economic-philosophical systems.

"upward to international finance"  Rothchild's, Rockefeller's, DuPont's Bushes etc.? 

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10 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

"upward to international finance"  Rothchild's, Rockefeller's, DuPont's Bushes etc.? 

Like that.  The legend is that Marx was elevated to an econo-philosophical founding father at the interest of high profiteers who wanted competing systems to sell war materiel to.  Among the supposed deceived masses, Communism would have been seen as a way to achieve modern society and destroy feudalism in Europe.  No one counted on human weakness among the newly strengthened.  And this just in: the rising backlash of Euro-fascism, supposedly also funded by....

Remembering also the legend that one of the Rothschilds made his fortune by knowing the outcome of Waterloo before the London Exchange did.  Supposedly one messenger on fast horses and a fast Channel boat got to London ahead of the dispatches, allowing Rothschild an edge on other investor decisions.

Edited by David Andrews

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So then...could her marriage to Porter be considered almost a Counterintelligence play to some extent? Speculative reasoning but I couldn’t help but wonder given that amazing blog post (thanks Steve!)

Edited by B. A. Copeland

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I want to address what I now see as a possible contradiction in my first post where I stated my assumption that Marina might very well have wanted to come to America because of it's attraction as a materially wealthy and more glamorous society than the relatively more drab Soviet one.

I have been reading Marina's testimony to the HSCA in 1978.

Among Marina's answers to questions about her wanting to come to the U.S., she states if she knew Lee was wanting to come back to the U.S. she "would not have married him."  !!!

Marina states that coming to the U.S. was not the reason she married Lee.

She seems to indicate in her HSCA testimony she was ambivalent about coming to America.

Marina then makes a comment about "hating the U.S." which I really couldn't make out the context of.

I really should have done at least a minimum of further reading of Marina's testimonies in their entirety before expressing my assumptions about her feelings and motivations during her life here with Lee.

Marina becomes even more of a mystery when I do so.

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I’ve seen it stated here a couple times that LHO may have treated Marina badly (physical abuse, etc) whereas Robert Charles Dunne gave a very good (seemingly, in my mind anyway) defense against the popular claim that LHO abused Marina. I’d encourage anyone to take a look and analyze it for yourselves. I’m cautious to call LHO “abusive”, etc. K&K (kennedysandking) reproduced the post found here at the EF:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/was-oswald-a-serial-wife-batterer

Its a great (and pretty funny to me) yet powerful analysis of the abuse claims.

Edited by B. A. Copeland

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On 1/17/2019 at 6:04 PM, B. A. Copeland said:

I’ve seen it stated here a couple times that LHO may have treated Marina badly (physical abuse, etc) whereas Robert Charles Dunne gave a very good (seemingly, in my mind anyway) defense against the popular claim that LHO abused Marina.

 

B.A.,

 

I have seriously looked at the possibility that it was Marina who ordered the rifle.

It goes back to the idea that Lee Oswald freely admitted that the Selective Service card in the name of Hidell was his, but denied that it was his signature on that card.

The logic of that escapes me, unless he was covering up for someone.

Marina admitted to signing the name “Hidell” to “two or three things” with the name “Hidell” that were not pamphlets.

CE 2726 p. 105 (26H105)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=141&tab=page

is a June 17, 1964 letter from Hoover to J. Lee Rankin concerning Marina's signature on the A.J. Hidell signature on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee membership card.
The FBI determined that Marina signed the FPCC membership card in the name of A.J. Hidell. Hoover says that Exhibits 404A, 408A, 409A and 420 are being returned to you. These are samples of Marina's handwriting.

image.png.a8407a6eb20bbd99679f3e1b5eceaf27.png

Marina's 1969 testimony at the Clay Shaw trial:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/marinash.htm

 

Q: Did you sign anything for him down here?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What did you sign?

A: Some kind of paper about something, but I don't remember what it was.

Q: Would you recall --

A: The name Hidell.

Q: Hidell?

A: Yes.

Q: You signed the name, Hidell?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And what was your purpose of doing that?

A: He asked me to do it and I refused, and then he forced me to do it.

Q: What do you mean, forced you?

A: He threatened me if I wouldn't do it he use, you know -- how shall I say?

Q: Physical threats?

A: Physical threats, yes, sir.

 

Why was it necessary to get the name "Hidell" just right? In what other instance was it important that the name "Hidell" look just right?

Now, you can either believe that Marina was practicing how to write the name Hidell because Lee threatened to beat her up if she didn't, or you can believe that this was a forger practicing her craft.

On at least three occasions in her testimony, Marina said they were living on Neely St. in January of 1963.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year.
I don't remember exactly.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.

 

For whatever reason, this can't be true. The Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12th.

Current Section: CE 1156 - FBI report dated February 18, 1964, of interview of Marina Oswald, Dallas, Tex. (CD 735, pp. 439-445).

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227

Marina told the FBI on February 17, 1964 that she saw Oswald practicing with the rifle at the Neely Street address at the beginning of January, 1963. 9(CE 1156 p. 197).

On February 18, 1964 she told the FBI that she was mistaken about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had taken place in March, 1963.

Here are the rifle order and the Hidell Selective Service card signatures:

403680051_rifleorderandHidellSScardsignatures.jpg.c0b586eb76c595894acea068783ff904.jpg

 

Steve Thomas

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6 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:



CE 2726 p. 105 (26H105)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=141&tab=page

is a June 17, 1964 letter from Hoover to J. Lee Rankin concerning Marina's signature on the A.J. Hidell signature on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee membership card.
The FBI determined that Marina signed the FPCC membership card in the name of A.J. Hidell. Hoover says that Exhibits 404A, 408A, 409A and 420 are being returned to you. These are samples of Marina's handwriting.

image.png.a8407a6eb20bbd99679f3e1b5eceaf27.png

 

FBI Agent Manning Clements did an inventory of Oswald's wallet on the evening of the 22nd. You can see it here:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=613.20

One of the items he listed was a Fair Play for Cuba Committee card signed by New Orleans Chapter President, A.J. Hidell.

Photos of the wallet contents can be found in Box 12 of the DPD Archives, running from Folders 11 - 20 or so.

Box 12, Folder# 23, Item# 1, Page 1 is a photocopy of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee card Hoover referenced in his letter to Rankin.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box12.htm

image.png.695af0c55b16e1a3983a70b056b459e5.png

To me, the Hidell signature on this card doesn't look similar to the others shown above.

 

Steve Thomas

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I have to remind myself when reading about and discussing Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina how young they were through all the craziness of the JFK event.

Oswald just turned 24 one month before 11,22,1963. He was 22 when he returned from Russia with Marina and Baby June.

Marina was just 20 when she came to America and 22 when JFK was killed.

I am so old now that I sometimes forget how naive, unsophisticated and unwise to the ways of the world I was at their ages back in the early 60's.

I was also very poor with no education or family support and only qualified for minimum wage jobs myself until I was closer to 25 to 30.

It was all I could do to barely pay rent on cheap apartments and drive the cheapest junk cars.

It was a fairly deprived and at times depressing existence.  My young age and decent youthful health and energy carried me with hope for the future.

However, if I had fathered a child and had a stay-at-home wife with baby to support during those hard times...I simply couldn't have made it.

I purposely avoided marriage and kids until I got at least to a level of providing that would allow my family to live in safer areas versus the poorest. 

This financially struggling everyday life reality of Lee Oswald and Marina ( which I experienced myself ) and their very young ages at the time ( when I think about it ) does weigh on my speculations regards L.O. and Marina in at least a few areas of suspicion about their supposed secret and nefarious behavior and roles.

 

 

 

 

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On 1/19/2019 at 5:21 AM, Steve Thomas said:

B.A.,

 

I have seriously looked at the possibility that it was Marina who ordered the rifle.

It goes back to the idea that Lee Oswald freely admitted that the Selective Service card in the name of Hidell was his, but denied that it was his signature on that card.

The logic of that escapes me, unless he was covering up for someone.

Marina admitted to signing the name “Hidell” to “two or three things” with the name “Hidell” that were not pamphlets.

CE 2726 p. 105 (26H105)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=141&tab=page

is a June 17, 1964 letter from Hoover to J. Lee Rankin concerning Marina's signature on the A.J. Hidell signature on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee membership card.
The FBI determined that Marina signed the FPCC membership card in the name of A.J. Hidell. Hoover says that Exhibits 404A, 408A, 409A and 420 are being returned to you. These are samples of Marina's handwriting.

image.png.a8407a6eb20bbd99679f3e1b5eceaf27.png

Marina's 1969 testimony at the Clay Shaw trial:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/marinash.htm

 

Q: Did you sign anything for him down here?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What did you sign?

A: Some kind of paper about something, but I don't remember what it was.

Q: Would you recall --

A: The name Hidell.

Q: Hidell?

A: Yes.

Q: You signed the name, Hidell?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And what was your purpose of doing that?

A: He asked me to do it and I refused, and then he forced me to do it.

Q: What do you mean, forced you?

A: He threatened me if I wouldn't do it he use, you know -- how shall I say?

Q: Physical threats?

A: Physical threats, yes, sir.

 

Why was it necessary to get the name "Hidell" just right? In what other instance was it important that the name "Hidell" look just right?

Now, you can either believe that Marina was practicing how to write the name Hidell because Lee threatened to beat her up if she didn't, or you can believe that this was a forger practicing her craft.

On at least three occasions in her testimony, Marina said they were living on Neely St. in January of 1963.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year.
I don't remember exactly.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.

 

For whatever reason, this can't be true. The Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12th.

Current Section: CE 1156 - FBI report dated February 18, 1964, of interview of Marina Oswald, Dallas, Tex. (CD 735, pp. 439-445).

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227

Marina told the FBI on February 17, 1964 that she saw Oswald practicing with the rifle at the Neely Street address at the beginning of January, 1963. 9(CE 1156 p. 197).

On February 18, 1964 she told the FBI that she was mistaken about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had taken place in March, 1963.

Here are the rifle order and the Hidell Selective Service card signatures:

403680051_rifleorderandHidellSScardsignatures.jpg.c0b586eb76c595894acea068783ff904.jpg

 

Steve Thomas

That is deeply fascinating Steve, thank you.

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On 1/17/2019 at 6:04 PM, B. A. Copeland said:

I’ve seen it stated here a couple times that LHO may have treated Marina badly (physical abuse, etc) whereas Robert Charles Dunne gave a very good (seemingly, in my mind anyway) defense against the popular claim that LHO abused Marina. I’d encourage anyone to take a look and analyze it for yourselves. I’m cautious to call LHO “abusive”, etc. K&K (kennedysandking) reproduced the post found here at the EF:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/was-oswald-a-serial-wife-batterer

Its a great (and pretty funny to me) yet powerful analysis of the abuse claims.

Lee struck his wife on several occasions.  He not only physically abused her, he emotionally abused her as well.  Anyone who says anything different is just wrong.

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On 1/24/2019 at 4:23 PM, B. A. Copeland said:

That is deeply fascinating Steve, thank you.

Steve,

That handwriting is the handwriting of a female.  Handwriting analysis is a very interesting topic and I agree with you, Marina did forge Lee's name on several important documents.  

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Why would Marina forge Lee's real name or alias signature on any documents at all?

Was she asked or pressured to this by Lee? If so, why would he do this?

If not, why would Marina do this?

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