Jump to content
The Education Forum

Recommended Posts

31 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Sandy:

you see that there is a prevailing number of testimonies saying that Shelley and Lovelady met Gloria Calvery not on the concrete island but while they both stood in the doorway.

 

Prevailing testimony? It's just two guys testifying for the WC and one guy's 50 year-old memory that contradicts what he had said 50 years prior.

And what you don't get is that those two guys -- Lovelady and Shelley -- were coached to say what they did for the WC in order to discredit Victoria Adams.

 

31 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

The visual evidence I analyse says the same. While there can be a shadow of doubt due to Shelley's DPD statement, prevailing data including the likely timing say that these two men were on the steps when the lady with dark headscarf came to the steps and shouted about Kennedy being killed.

 

Shelley's first-day statement doesn't contradict his being on the steps in Darnell.

 

31 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

There is a grain of uncertainty as there is this discrepancy in Shelley's statements, however, I hope you understand my reasons for placing Shelley and Lovelady on the steps in Darnell. Not mentioning the need to invent three-four persons (Shelley, Lovelady, Williams, Molina) who suddenly appeared in Darnell, 15-20 seconds after the shooting, had the same clothes which these people had in Altgens6 and Wiegman, were of the same body height, and occupied the spots which their "doubles" occupied in Altgens6 and Wiegman. 

Please, give one more look to Couch/Darnell.

Carl Jones in quite a fast trot reaches the concrete island and maybe steps on the lamp post, and he stood in the front line of depository spectators.

 

Carl Jones waited several seconds after the shooting before he crossed the street. He had to have, given that Woman in All White had traveled a much farther distance during the same period of time

 

31 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

All other occupants standing behind him, e.g. like Shelley who was on the top step, would come later than Jones - but the lady in dark already is at the steps of the Depository.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Carl Jones waited several seconds after the shooting before he crossed the street. He had to have, given that Woman in All White had traveled a much farther distance during the same period of time

I agree. He departed when Wiegman film finished, and we do not know how many seconds after Wiegman. When he left, Lovelady, who is seen descending in the final frames of Wiegman took Carl Jones's spot. Mrs. Reese, as she was short, stepped up few steps and took Lovelady's spot. A boy in a white shirt who is seen in few Dealey Plaza photographs lurking around the doorway stepped on the first step at the western wall in Darnell (He is not in the 3D model yet). Buell Frazier moved forward towards the edge of top landing in Darnell. That was the spot which Mrs. Stanton had in Altgens6. Mrs. Stanton is already behind Mr. Shelley in Darnell, her grey hair seen above dark Shelley's hair. The blob in the center of the top landing comprises three people which is difficult to recognise just by looking at the photograph: Mr. Williams, Mr. Shelley and Mrs. Stanton. To disentangle these three people, it is necessary to model the situation and check every solution against the original still. However, once done it is easy to understand: Mr. Williams has a white shirt and dark trousers, he is leaning towards his right and shields his eyes with his left arm. Then there is a clear white oval above him with a dark strip at the top of the oval - this is a face of someone who could measure 5'4'' - this is Shelley. A small piece of tie can be seen below the light oval. And then there is a light grey strip above the head of a person 5'4'', and it is at the height where Mrs. Stanton (5'5'' - 5'6'') would have her hair. The contours of the persons standing behind Mr. Williams merge, but the trunk of that "person" would be too wide to belong to only one person. We see a part of Shelley's upper body and Mrs. Stanton's upper body. If there would be only Mrs. Stanton on the top landing, Mr. Shelley gone,  we would see her in full which we do not. The face (light oval) would be too low to belong to the grey hair strip of Mrs. Stanton.

I posted a figure few posts above with contours delineating the hair and body contours of these three people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I agree. He departed when Wiegman film finished, and we do not know how many seconds after Wiegman Yes we do, 15 seconds after he is already well on his way with Lovelady. Plus it can be seen in the final large shot of the steps people that Loveldady is moving directly dpwn the steps, not sideways as you would like to happen and Shelley is seen following him.. When he left, Lovelady, who is seen descending in the final frames of Wiegman took Carl Jones's spot. Wrong, he didn ot. Mrs. Reese, as she was short, stepped up few steps correct and took Lovelady's spot. A boy in a white shirt who is seen in few Dealey Plaza photographs lurking around the doorway stepped on the first step at the western wall in Darnell (He is not in the 3D model yet). Buell Frazier moved forward towards the edge of top landing in Darnell. That was the spot which Mrs. Stanton had in Altgens6. Mrs. Stanton is already behind Mr. Shelley in Darnell Wrong, her grey hair seen above dark Shelley's hair Wrong. The blob in the center of the top landing comprises three people which is difficult to recognise just by looking at the photograph: Mr. Williams, Mr. Shelley and Mrs. Stanton. To disentangle these three people, it is necessary to model the situation and check every solution against the original still. However, once done it is easy to understand: Mr. Williams has a white shirt and dark trousers, he is leaning towards his right and shields his eyes with his left arm. Then there is a clear white oval above him with a dark strip at the top of the oval - this is a face of someone who could measure 5'4'' - this is Shelley Wrong. There is only Joe Molina there no one else, wearing a  white shirt with a shadow on the left side of his torso and left arm. A small piece of tie can be seen below the light oval. And then there is a light grey strip above the head of a person 5'4'', and it is at the height where Mrs. Stanton (5'5'' - 5'6'') would have her hair. The contours of the persons standing behind Mr. Williams merge, but the trunk of that "person" would be too wide to belong to only one person Wrong, the image is too blurry and too small to make those type of judgement calls. If you are so sure about this then why sit on the fence when it comes to Oswald being PM, it just boggles the mind what you are trying to achieve here. If PM is Oswald it is a done deal. The case is cracked wde open. Shelley, Lovelady etc do not matter, your 3d drawing does not matter....we can all get ourselves a stiff drink and call it a day, but no.......We see a part of Shelley's upper body and Mrs. Stanton's upper body. If there would be only Mrs. Stanton on the top landing, Mr. Shelley gone,  we would see her in full which we do not. The face (light oval) would be too low to belong to the grey hair strip of Mrs. Stanton. Wrong Stanton went to the East and down to have a better view, period.

Pauline-Sanders-and-Sarah-Stanton-in-Dar

I posted a figure few posts above with contours delineating the hair and body contours of these three people.Fairy tale drawings.

I have a huge issue with these Fetzerian observations, like 'em or not, but you are all wrong over the Darnell film.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Dave Wiegman film is a puzzler.  Some elements of the film do not ring true.  I’m beginning to wonder if Robert Groden put together Dave Wiegman’s film segments in a different order or used another film with the Wiegman film.  Most of the videos you see of Dave Wiegman’s film is the NFV production of Robert Groden. 

In a telephone interview on 3-11-89 in Pictures of Pain pages Richard Trask pages 371-372 Says the following: (This is located at prayerman.com/Bart Kamp)

We were in that straight-a-way heading down to what I now know as the Book Depository, (Houston Street) and I heard the first report and I thought like everybody that it was a good size firecracker—a cherry bomb .Then when I heard the second one, the adrenaline really started pumping because there was a reaction in the motorcade, I was sitting on the edge of the (car door) frame, which I sometimes did. I keenly remember right after the incident that my feet were on the ground during one of the reports.
I don’t think I was fast enough to react to the second, but I think on the third one I was runningThe car had slowed down enough for me to jump out. I swung my leg over and jumped while the car was still moving, but it was very slow. I jumped and I remember running and I remember the third shot.

When I got out I knew I better get around the corner. The car was  stopping. I’d better run around there and see what was happening. I knew the reaction was to run forward. I’d done this before in other motorcades because a lot of times the President will stop and do something. He might just shake a hand. He might look at a sign. So you’re doing no good sitting in your car, and you can always retrieve your car as it goes by….It was a technique I’ve used and I’ve gotten some good pictures that way. That may have been built in to get out and run and get up there and see what the heck’s happening. The motorcade has stopped, plus you heard a report I don’t think I thought on the first or second ( shot ), but when the third one went off, I really thought I felt the compression on my face . I really thought I felt it. Then I thought “Somebody is shooting”.

The idea of turning on the camera, I don’t know where that came from. I’ve turned in some real sloppy work over the years that went into editing because I believed that sometimes you’re not photographing what’s happening as much as the moment. It’s a slice of time. And something told me, “hey look, what have I got to lose. I’ve got a full spring and just turn it on.” I can’t stop and plant my feet, so I put it against my chest because you can’t run with a Filmo up to your eyes. So I just slid it down under my chin and looked forward and ran as fast as I could and took in everything I could.”

Telephone interview Wiegman, 3/11/89. Pictures Of The Pain by Richard Trask pages 371-372.

His statements in bold are the problem.  He says he got out of Camera Car #1 on Houston Street.  And, then noted that the car was stopping.  While running he heard the third shot. Next, he ran around the corner of the intersection and began filming on Elm Street.

Here’s the problem.  At 17 seconds into the film some one is filming the payment.  This gives one the notion that Wiegman is still in the vehicle.  If it wasn’t Wiegman then who was it doing the filming?  I screen captured the entire Power DVD display in order to show the time, 17 seconds.  Thanks to Robin Unger for pointed out the usefulness of Power DVD.

Weigman17-secs.jpg

Wiegman claims he got out on Houston Street.  Is this from Weigman’s film?  Or, is it part of another film we don’t know about?  Or, is this segment out of sequence in the film?  It does not ring true with his statements in Pictures of Pain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Roy:

I managed to do some basic analysis for the possibility that a person  6'4'', someone like Jack Dougherty, could stand there at the western wall and pose as Prayer Man. The first image shows the tall Prayer Man with a measuring stick crossing his head. It shows 6'4''. You can see also the 5'9'' Prayer Man in the shadow, also with a measuring stick. 

dougherty_sticks.jpg

 

The next picture shows the doorway scene with the tall Prayer Man with his right foot on the third riser. This is the same pose which the preferred 5'9'' Prayer Man assumed. 

dougherty_topview.jpg

 

And now, let us view this tall Prayer Man from Darnell's perspective:

doughery_darnellperspec.jpg

This picture shows the main problem: Prayer Man would be lit by the sunlight almost completely, certainly his whole front body. Further problems appear when the overlay of the model and Darnell is inspected:

dougherty_overlay.jpg

 

It is especially the giant man's right forearm which, in spite of the 6'4'' body height securing that his head reaches to where Prayer Man's head does, would be below Prayer Man's forearm. Recall, two people, one 5'2'' and another 5'9'', with the taller man standing 7'' below the smaller man will not show their arms at the same height - the shorter man would have his arms about 2 inches higher than the tall man. The forearm problem seen here is the same: the 5'9'' man standing on the second step will his arms higher than the man 6'4'' standing one step below. 

I hope this analysis can convince you that it is not likely that a man 6'4'' standing with his right foot on the third riser could be Prayer Man. He would be exposed to the sunlight more than Prayer Man in Darnell, and his arms would appear to be too low compared to Darnell's Prayer Man.

Thank you for raising this interesting problem. There was a rumor last November that Mr. Frazier would suggest Jack Dougherty as Prayer Man. Well, this would not be possible, and I hope that anyone being able to speak with Mr. Frazier will be aware of this analysis.

 

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Andrej and Bart,

Wow, you're knocking me out with all these good trials from the Darnell and Wiegman stills and films.  Just even that you guys are considering my propositions....  I especially like Bart's end of the film above that shows all the movement.

OK, to brass tacks.  Andrej, in your first anime (correct name?) above, PM is too straight up, too forward from the wall.  In the second anime, the angle of shade is not enough, just judging from the shadows at that time in the photos.  What we call the South wall of TSBD is actually canted a little to the east, WAG 10 to 15 degrees.  And the time was a little after Real Noon, so the sun had (barely) passed the S meridian.  So I think the angle of shade off the masonry of that entrance on PM's right side was a good 16 to 20 degrees.

Andrej, you note the giant forearm of PM.  YES.  It shows a man over six feet.  One thing about Jack Dougherty is that he had proportionally narrow shoulders from the rest of his frame.  This can be seen in his early teen pictures, even more so as he aged.  I figure it was poor diet (probably ate a family-size bag of chips for many a meal), genetics and a lack of physical activity.  It's striking, esp. when you compare him to the broad-shouldered Wes Frazier, who didn't have an ounce of fat on him at that time.   I think PM's proportionally narrow shoulders have led researchers to assume he's a smaller man than he really is.

I tell you guys, LG Zambanini's collection of JED photos tells a story.  There's one that is especially painful to me.  Jack is standing in FRONT of his fifth grade mates (he had probably been kept back at least one grade), and he's twice as tall as some of them.  Why the photog didn't get this giant to stand in the back and not block several of the class, ouch, it hurts.  And you can see he has grown freakishly tall recently; you can feel the growing pains.

You notice in all the PM pics, Frazier is the smart one.  His face is shaded so he can see well, and his body is in the sun, keeping warm and collecting all that good vitamin D.  Wes was a working man, knew about being outside.  JED not a working man, but he'd seen enough of it to shade himself with the available sun-blockers.  Only his right arm and coffee cup stick out into the sun at times.

One more thing -- from looking at all the pictures of PM, it seems to me he is sort of "sagging" back against some support.  I believe his right calf at least is leaning against that solid block that bookends the steps.  That makes someone look shorter, when he's leaning and sagging, not holding himself up by his own posture, as Wes Frazier is obviously doing, though it looks like WF leans forward sometimes into the top of the handrail in the center of the steps.

Edited by Roy Wieselquist

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Roy:

thanks for your comments. The giant Prayer Man needs to be forward if he stands with his right foot on the third riser - this has to do with the landmark we need to follow: the vertical edge of the aluminum doorframe crossing Prayer Man' head. If I push him closer to the wall, more into the shadow, his head will be to the left of the aluminum door frame.

The shadow plane in my model is not chosen by me. It is set by Google Earth which is linked with Sketchup program. The angle of the shadow cast by the western front edge of the doorway in this model has been checked against independent readings from different programs on some thread on this Forum about a year ago.

I hope this helps.

Edited by Andrej Stancak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another problem is that people believe there is 15 seconds between the Dave Wiegman and Couch-Darnell scenes of the TSBD steps.  There is something close to 37 seconds difference shown in the frame below which has the Camera Cars making the turn onto Elm Street from Houston Street at 38 seconds of the Wiegman film.

Weigman-38-secs-weigman-not-in-camera-ca

This montage is of 3 frames at 17,18 and 38 seconds.  The frame at 38 seconds shows that Weigman was not in the vehicle and could not have taken the frame at 17 seconds and the frame at 18 seconds:

Wiegman-montage-17-18-secs.jpg

This backs up Dave Wiegman’s Pictures of Pain statements on pages 371 and 372 which Trask later ignores.  The frame at 38 seconds was taken 20 seconds after the frames at 17 and 18 seconds.  Weigman is not in the vehicle.  So, who took the film?  Who took the film 20 seconds earlier? 

Trask in Pictures of Pain totally ignores Wiegman’s statements of pages 371 and 372.  He goes on to give a different version of events on page 373 in which Richard Sprague and Gary Mack give a version that is one that can be said to be compatible with the official story of the WC of the shooting to the president down by the Grassy Knoll.

Nowhere in the Wiegman film do you see anything like the assassination occurring on Elm Street.  It is after the presidential party has cleared the Plaza.

The Wiegman frame at 17 seconds into the film on Elm Street is supposed to have happened on Houston Street according to Weigman.  Who is following the National Press Pool Car when the Camera Cars are still on Houston Street as shown by the 38 second frame showing the Camera Cars turning the corner onto Elm Street 20 seconds later?

Who is the best witness on this?  Sprague and Mack or the witness, Dave Wiegman who took the film.  Why does Trask ignore what Wiegman says? 

One question is answered.  There is now 37 seconds approximately between Wiegman scene of the TSBD steps and Couch-Darnell’s scene of the TSBD steps.

OBTW, Marion Baker makes his run approximately 37 seconds after Weigman as seen in the Couch-Darnell film.  It still gives him about 1 minute to get to the 2nd floor break room.  Unfortunately, he passed Oswald / Prayer Man on the TSBD steps and that is why the didn’t report the 2nd Floor encounter in his 11-22-63 statement.  Who was the employee met on the 3rd or 4th floor steps?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How Prayer Man (Oswald) stands is not much of an issue, only to determine his height. Which is not easy since his feet are covered and obscured at all times

Then again a clearer film will make this a side issue as well once the face is 100% recognised. The height issue will be obsolete. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Another problem is that people believe there is 15 seconds between the Dave Wiegman and Couch-Darnell scenes of the TSBD steps.  There is something close to 37 seconds difference shown in the frame below which has the Camera Cars making the turn onto Elm Street from Houston Street at 38 seconds of the Wiegman film.

Weigman-38-secs-weigman-not-in-camera-ca

This montage is of 3 frames at 17,18 and 38 seconds.  The frame at 38 seconds shows that Weigman was not in the vehicle and could not have taken the frame at 17 seconds and the frame at 18 seconds:

Wiegman-montage-17-18-secs.jpg

This backs up Dave Wiegman’s Pictures of Pain statements on pages 371 and 372 which Trask later ignores.  The frame at 38 seconds was taken 20 seconds after the frames at 17 and 18 seconds.  Weigman is not in the vehicle.  So, who took the film?  Who took the film 20 seconds earlier? 

Trask in Pictures of Pain totally ignores Wiegman’s statements of pages 371 and 372.  He goes on to give a different version of events on page 373 in which Richard Sprague and Gary Mack give a version that is one that can be said to be compatible with the official story of the WC of the shooting to the president down by the Grassy Knoll.

Nowhere in the Wiegman film do you see anything like the assassination occurring on Elm Street.  It is after the presidential party has cleared the Plaza.

The Wiegman frame at 17 seconds into the film on Elm Street is supposed to have happened on Houston Street according to Weigman.  Who is following the National Press Pool Car when the Camera Cars are still on Houston Street as shown by the 38 second frame showing the Camera Cars turning the corner onto Elm Street 20 seconds later?

Who is the best witness on this?  Sprague and Mack or the witness, Dave Wiegman who took the film.  Why does Trask ignore what Wiegman says? 

One question is answered.  There is now 37 seconds approximately between Wiegman scene of the TSBD steps and Couch-Darnell’s scene of the TSBD steps.

OBTW, Marion Baker makes his run approximately 37 seconds after Weigman as seen in the Couch-Darnell film.  It still gives him about 1 minute to get to the 2nd floor break room.  Unfortunately, he passed Oswald / Prayer Man on the TSBD steps and that is why the didn’t report the 2nd Floor encounter in his 11-22-63 statement.  Who was the employee met on the 3rd or 4th floor steps?  

Nope, wrong.

See Wiegman filming the Hesters in Couch and count your seconds from Cam Car 1 departure until the filming part.

Approx 15 seconds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Bart Kamp,

“Nope, wrong.

See Wiegman filming the Hesters in Couch and count your seconds from Cam Car 1 departure until the filming part.

Approx 15 seconds.”

***

I fail to see any much of anything in the Couch film concerning the Hesters.  As close as I can get is this:

Couch-7-sec-no-mayor-or-national-press-1

Why if there?  The next scene is at 11 seconds:

couch-11-secs-no-hesters-1.jpg

This presents a problem because Wiegman started filming the Hesters at 23 seconds into his film.

wiegman-hesters-23-secs.jpg

The filming of the Hesters goes on until 32 seconds in the film:

weigman-hesters-32-sec.jpg

Then the Wiegman film switches to the Newmans and ends at 41 seconds.

At 37 seconds into the Wiegman film the Camera Cars are released.  At 11 seconds into the Couch film we have a seen where Hesters are not there. 

This is why I said the Wiegman film is a puzzler and now the Couch film is also.  Don’t know what to make of this in regards to Bart’s 15 seconds.  Bart’s suggestion could be correct by there being 37 seconds noted in Wiegman for the Camera Cars to be released and 7 seconds for the vague image of the Hesters in Couch.  That’s about 11 seconds and throw in extras for errors and you have 15 seconds.

However, that doesn’t count for the longer period of time, 37 seconds, between Weigman’s on foot film of the TSBD steps and the vehicle filming of Couch of the TSBD steps as they were released into the intersection.  Weigman’s film shows the Mayor’s Car and the National Press Pool Car turning in front of the TSBD and proceeding down Elm Street.  Couch’s film doesn’t.  And, the reason it doesn’t is that they filmed the TSBD later.  Hence, you have this:

Weigman-couch-compare.jpg

I have a Gumpian ending.  That's all I got to say about that.

Edited by John Butler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bart,

That is not Wiegman with which you have the red arrow pointing towards, near the Stemmons sign.

Wiegman is on his run down the knoll and is just to the left of the RL Thorton sign.

John,

Wiegman is exactly where his film says he is.

After he films the Newmans, he turns towards the street and films the approaching motorcade.

I suggest looking for my previous sync posting using Bell and Wiegman as the key films for a common event.

We've been through this before.

46041526434_b42aa61a43_o.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×