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No Chris, that segment is after.

The lady in the black skirt and top with the sun glasses is sitting down already.

Look at the Hesters, one down and one getting up. And eventually moving inside the pergola

Only one person who filmed that.

The colour photograph inside your collage is also way later after he shot them it has no bearing.

Edited by Bart Kamp

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After what?

Hopefully you can see Mr. Hester in Bell at the colannade.

Wiegmans the guy in Bell, near the steps starting to rise.

What is not known is the time it takes Wiegman to rise after filming the Hesters to where we see him running in Couch from behind the RL Thorton sign

Add in whatever amount of time you think it takes for Charles Hester to return back to his wife after Wiegman stops filming and begins his sprint down the knoll.

If your Couch frame is before Bell, where are Z and Sitz in Couch?

Who do you think is running down the knoll in Couch, eventually filming the Newman's, then turning to the street and filming the motorcade approaching?

The same person appearing in Rickersby near the lamp-post (previously supplied).

That's Wiegman.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RnuKN83jMGuIHMFbd4boTdvmPO2v_Jw1/view?usp=sharing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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After he filmed the Hesters. You seem to mix things up.

He ran down and filmed them first, even before the Newmans, Elm St and the follow up cam car(s) and so forth.

Your pictures are from after he shot the Hesters

 

The timing is to be considered from the second he left the car and he films The Hesters which is caught in Couch.

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There are two films that show Charles Hester(by himself) run into the colannade.

Bell and Wiegman.

That is your sync point.

Once you confirm you see Charles Hester run  into the colannade in Bell, you can then work forwards and backwards in terms of time.

It's the best time syncing available, as there are no other common events that occur within these films which enable a sync.

If somebody comes up with one, I'm all ears.

The time it takes for Wiegman panning back to the TSBD after the head shot, until the Hester sync = 21seconds.

Bell films Wiegman filming the Hesters. The sync point between Bell and Wiegman is Hester stepping up onto the Colonade.

Bell continuously films afterwards for 1.3 seconds and  picks up Wiegman starting to rise for his  run down the knoll.

Gerda’s dual-sync of Couch/Darnell shows both Wiegman and Baker in there respective runs.

There is 3.5 seconds of missing footage from the Wiegman sequence.

Take those 3.5 seconds and apply that to Wiegman after we see him start to rise in Bell and to
Baker before we see him in Gerda’s dual-sync.

Baker’s run to the curb equals 4 seconds.

This total = approx 29.8 seconds.

Choose what you may in terms of missing time between Wiegman's film stop(after filming Charles Hesters in the colannade) and Couch's start.

 

 

 

 

 

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No wrong, dead wrong.

You do not need Bell or all the other crap, and it sure as hell is not 30 seconds after the final shot when Baker started to make his dash.

What a terrible way to come to that conclusion.

It is dead simple as I have stated multiple times.

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Until you show us, I'll leave the rest of the forum with Hester (by himself) entering the colannade.

If he's difficult to find, just look to the top of the lightpost that the cop is standing next to.

The same cop we see in Couch who has not left either when we initially see him.

You can also see lonely Beatrice Hester starting to rise.

I'm on to other items of more interest.

Bell_1.gif

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Chris,

I have finally seen what you are showing.  It may be questionable.  Later the Hesters are seen moving into the area.  Maybe?

You really can't trust this Bell sequence.  It was probably taken by someone else.  The camera angles are wrong for Bell.  Someone filmed from Main Street directly across from the scene.

Here's the angle from Bell:

bell-hesters-wrong-place.jpg

Here is an extreme example:

Bell-camera-angles-compare.jpg

These kind of maps are drawn by taking the center of the picture and moving backward from there.  This suggests Main St. as the area of the film taker.

But, I really wanted to ask about this:

"The time it takes for Wiegman panning back to the TSBD after the head shot, until the Hester sync = 21seconds."

Do you mean the Kennedy head shot?  Wiegman says he was on Houston Street running with the 3rd shot.  He hadn't reached the corner of Elm yet.  Are you implying there is a scene showing a Kennedy head shot?

and,

"This total = approx 29.8 seconds."

With adjustments for missing film and errors that gets closer to 37 seconds.  I may be wrong and 29.8 seconds is the answer or somewhere between 29.8 and 37 is the answer.

Bell has many alteration problems.  It needs to be looked at closely in any scene before and specially after the motorcade leaves the Plaza.

 

 

Edited by John Butler

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Marion Baker's run to the TSBD as seen in Couch-Darnell.

Most folks think that this happened about 15 seconds after the assassination as viewed in the difference in timing between the Wiegman film and the Couch-Darnell film.  Why do we believe this other than film evidence?  Is it because Marion Baker said he did that when he left the motorcade as soon as he heard shooting and saw pigeons flying from the roof of the TSBD.  Why should we believe that when we do not believe other parts of this statements on 11-22-63 as versus what he and Roy Truly said later.  The second floor encounter with Oswald can be accounted as a fantasy.  Prayer Man is Oswald and Baker passed him on the steps going into the TSBD.

I didn't realize this controversy when working on the timing differences between the Wiegman and Couch-Darnell film.  Marion Baker's run at 15 seconds after the assassination, or 25 seconds as shown in several Utube films, or Chris' estimate of 29.8 seconds, or mine at 37 seconds needs to be determined which is correct.  My estimate may be a bit long since the Camera Cars may have been released a couple of seconds before the scene in Wiegman at 38 seconds.  The Wiegman scene at 37 seconds is not as clear as the one at 38 seconds.

The 30 or 37 seconds after the assassination calls into question Marion Baker's story.  15 seconds more or less confirms Baker's story.

There has to be more time between the TSBD scene in Wiegman and the Couch-Darnell TSBD scene than 15 seconds.  In the following scene in Wiegman shows the crowd lined up on Elm.  The scene in Couch-Darnell shows the crowd disbursed with many returning to the TSBD landing.  The cast of characters on the landing in the Wiegman scene is different to that shown in Couch-Darnell.  There must be more than 15 seconds for this to occur.

Weigman-couch-compare.jpg  

   

 

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On 1/16/2019 at 1:41 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Roy:

thanks for your comments. The giant Prayer Man needs to be forward if he stands with his right foot on the third riser - this has to do with the landmark we need to follow: the vertical edge of the aluminum doorframe crossing Prayer Man' head. If I push him closer to the wall, more into the shadow, his head will be to the left of the aluminum door frame.  RW: Sorry, I don't see why that is necessarily true.

The shadow plane in my model is not chosen by me. It is set by Google Earth which is linked with Sketchup program. The angle of the shadow cast by the western front edge of the doorway in this model has been checked against independent readings from different programs on some thread on this Forum about a year ago.  RW:  The more I look at the orientation of TSBD and the shadows of the people out front during Wiegman and Darnell, the more I think that angle of shade is at least 20 degrees.  So PM near the top of the steps would be mostly in the shade since he's against the left, west, side of those steps.

I hope this helps.

Andrej:

It has been about a year since you proved to my satisfaction that PM is 5' 9" IF he is effectively standing on the first tread down from the landing.  Within a quarter inch either way.

Therefore if he's effectively standing on the second tread from the top, he's almost 6' 4", that extra riser adding almost 7" to his real height.  You figured out sometime fairly recently that the risers varied between 6 3/4" and 6 7/8" if I remember right. Just call it 7" because of course Aristotle said, "Round numbers are best."

I'll always be grateful for all your work on this.

SO --- PM is at most 6' 4", maybe closer to 6' 3".

If PM is Jack Dougherty, it opens many cans of worms.  From the plotters' perspectives, the smelliest can to keep a lid on is this, IMO: if JED's many, many movements were to become known, it would be obvious that he was operating under the direction of others.  No way would he have been floating all over AND keeping an eye on the elevators that were minutely controlled, ALL on his OWN.  Those others giving JED his Big Event assignments DID NOT want to be known.  If any of them are still living, they DO NOT want to be known.

They told Jack, IMHO, "Keep it simple.  That way you won't mess up."  But he still messed up.

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Roy:

Jack Dougherty's movements during the before, during and after the shooting raise many questions. Therefore, I am grateful you brought the possibility of him being Prayer Man here. Mr. Frazier was supposed to take questions at a Dallas CAPA JFK conference last November and although he was not able to attend due to health issues, there was a rumor that he would suggest Jack Dougherty as Prayer Man.

The witness testimonies can be often contradictory and if we would just blindly follow them, there would not be any possibility to reconstruct the events on that fateful Friday. This applies more to the testimonies that would be relevant in understanding Oswald's movements than to testimonies addressing some other aspects of the assassination. Some witnesses did not remember where they had stood in the doorway, a simple thing to remember one would say. For instance, Billy Lovelady told the Warren Commission he stood on the first step (top landing), however, he actually did not - even in Altgens6 he stood on the seconds step.

The decision of where Prayer Man stood and how tall he was are connected as space and time in the Universe. For instance, should he stand on the top landing, he could only measure 5'2''. 

From the three possibilities: top landing - 5'2'', first step - 5'9'', seconds step - 6'4'', only the middle one fits with what we see in Darnell. I have shown it in an overlay that the 5'9'' (second step) would neatly fit Prayer Man's figure, and will soon prepare a more detailed overlay with a GIF or a brief video. The short Prayer Man (5'2'', top landing) would be too inward in the doorway and this would mostly manifest in his right elbow being too far from the head of the man standing on the lowers step (their distance is actually some 2 feet, however, se speak about the 2D projection of their relative locations). This has to do with the fact that a short person has all body parts comparatively high even if the top of his head is matched with Prayer Man's head. I have shown an analysis explaining this point earlier in this thread.

The tall Prayer Man, if you checked my reconstruction, would: 1) have his front body lit by sunlight, 2. would have his arms lower than Darnell's Prayer Man, 3. would have his right elbow burried in the head of the man standing below him (in this 2D projection of the doorway in Darnell film). Thus, the big Prayer Man 6'4'' would not fare well, which eliminates Jack Dougherty, a very tall man, as Prayer Man.

While I do not believe that Jack Dougherty could be Prayer Man (none part of his confused testimony suggests that he was outside the building that soon), I appreciate your detailed, almost psychological knowledge of Jack Dougherty. He clearly could have been used by the plotters or be an unwilling witness to something he was later very concerned about.

 

 

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