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2 hours ago, Derek Thibeault said:

Brian Doyle just ripped Jim D and Kathy Beckett on Facebook for being banned from here because he was arguing against the Prayer Man theory. Called Jim a fraud. I assume it was more than that since many people who don't agree are still here. That's what this forum is for the right to discuss issues with differing opinions. I believe in a lot of what Jim says but I still don't subscribe to the Prayer Man theory, of course with the right convincing I could.

Kathy Becket tore that nutcase Brian Doyle a new one recently at MacRae's forum for constantly insulting everyone who does not agree with his non-existent 'evidence'. And even after all these years he still does not have any skills when it comes to presenting his views, nor does he have a clue when it comes to photography. And let's not even begin to talk about his interviewing capabilities where he does nothing but lead the interviewee....and of course shooting himself into the foot when being presented with material going completely against his own pet theory. It is utterly laughable...and yet he maintains serious delusions of grandeur.

When his theories get, easily, destroyed he falls back on Harvey and Lee, one being in the Domino room and the other being inside the 2nd fl lunchroom......grotesque and unsupported dreck.

Doyle has been rightly banned from here,  and Deep Politics Forum, his posts on Amazon from three accounts were scrapped as well and even MacRae's patience has been tested time and again the past twelve months that even he has had enough and banned him for periods of time. So at this time he speaks from his padded cell the Prayer Woman page, and no one gives a toss about that deluded fantasist.

Enough already, otherwise let's bring Cinque back as well....

 

Edited by Bart Kamp

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On ‎1‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 2:38 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Ron:

It is easy to laugh people out but hard to do research along uncharted paths. Prayer Man's right and left leg were of equal lengths, of course. You can check it in the two snapshots from my recent work. The top image shows the doorway as represented in one of the sharpest frames of Darnell film. The bottom picture shows the full Prayer Man's figure in which you can check the lengths of both legs.

pm_090119_detail.png

legdetail_full.jpg

 

Now, if you are so knowledgeable that you can laugh at other people's work,  would you say how tall Prayer Man was and where exactly did he stand?  And how did you arrive at your results?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Late edit: adding an overlay of the 3D model and Darnell still to show the match between the modelled mannequin and Prayer Man.

overlay_pmlho.jpg?w=300&h=285

 

 

But Prayer Man is looking in the wrong direction.  Everyone else is looking down Elm street while Prayer Man is looking at Houston and Elm.

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On ‎1‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 8:48 PM, John Butler said:

The 2nd floor lunchroom story has been discredited by Roy Truly's early testimony of seeing someone on the 4th floor and not the second.

And, we never have learned who that was.

John,

That is very interesting because LHO was a HUGE fan of Dr. Pepper, not Coke.  The machine with the Dr. Peppers in them was on a different floor than the 2nd floor.  But every book I've ever read says LHO was seen on the second floor.  Do you have a link showing that this has been debunked?  If so, and if it's not too much trouble I would love to  review it.  Thanks.

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16 hours ago, John Butler said:

 

More Musings:

Let's see.  Marion Baker needs to be cut a little bit of slack in his story error of the 3rd or 4th floor meeting a man on the steps.  If he had said the 2nd or 3rd floor then one could cut slack for Baker but, not for that kind of error by an unindicted co-conspirator who changed his story to be similar to another man (Truly) who gave his story a day later.  It's a story to keep Oswald in the building when he was out on Elm Street taking pictures of the motorcade (Prayer Man) and after it passed he returned to the steps of the TSBD to be filmed by Couch (Darnell) and Weigman.  We call this fellow Prayer Man/Oswald.  And, Marion Baker passed him on his way into the building and that is clear in the film.

Echoes of James DiEugenio.  Jiminy Christmas!  Should I say case closed? 

The case is closed in my mind.  LHO is Prayer Man and was taking pictures of the motorcade.

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Derek:

I think you are new here.  I don't know how long you were a lurker.

I had  nothing to do with Doyle being ejected from this forum.  In fact, I did not even know he was gone.  Same thing at DPF.  The idea that a.) I have any kind of forceful influence with the moderators is simply untrue and b.) I have never even tried to do any such thing.  My only complaints I have ever made is one here and one there and it was about abusive language. And neither one was about Doyle.

I have always been of the persuasion that people have a right to voice their opinion no matter how stupid no matter how badly informed.  

Concerning Doyle, do I think he has gone around the bend on this?  Yes I do. And for the life of me I do not know why.  But to show you how bad he is on it, let me just mention two instances:

1.) He actually swallowed Duncan McRae's attempt to turn PM into PW.  Which Bart and two others have shown was simply a hoax.  

2.) He, through his agents, did not even want me to post Bart's critique of the second floor lunch room encounter at DPF.  Figure that one out.

As I said, I have no idea why he has become Captain Ahab with this whole issue.  I really do not.  It simply cannot be decided one way of the other until a better image is attained.  One would think that would be what Doyle would be trying to do.  I know that is what ROKC has tried to do.  Which should indicate something about the quality of the argument.

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Alan Dale asked Stephen Fagin about the Darnell film last Nov at the Lancer conf.

Fagin answered that they have a copy in 2K format ready for viewing in the reading room. Copies cannot be provided due to copyright reasons.

Stu Wexler had someone check the film and I got in touch with him, also I asked someone to check it out as well.

Neither could provide much info as viewing the film could only be done by stopping and starting it, slow motion and enlarging areas was not possible at such. Also neither had a trained eye for these type of things, nor would Doyle in case anyone is wondering.

2K is not a great resolution, it is only 3x larger than the DVD film that has been shown until recently. But it is still better than nothing.

However I am of the opinion that the Darnell film will not give a conclusive 'it''s him' answer due to the motion blur, but it can be very useful regarding other people in that segment.

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Rich,

A good place to go for the debunking of Baker/Truly 2nd floor myth is Bart Kamp's Prayer Man web site.  He also has very relevant info on Prayer Man.

I had a memory lapse on Roy Truly and it should have been Marion Baker.  My notions are not novel, others were there long before me.  Only when it comes to the John Martin film and Prayer Man being on Elm Street as the motorcade came through have I added anything to the discussion.

There was a huge thread on Prayer Man on the forum.  Everyone got a chance to voice their thoughts.  I even got to add a little to the discussion.

Andrej Stancak has done impressive work on Prayer Man.  Being on the steps means Oswald was not on the 2nd Floor.  Being on the steps means Marion Baker passed him on his way into the building.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

2K is not a great resolution, it is only 3x larger than the DVD film that has been shown until recently. But it is still better than nothing.

Bart: 

do you think the Sixth Floor has the original Darnell and could potentially digitise at e.g.,  4K? However, even 2K would be excellent for analysis. More research, more waves, and maybe the copyright would eventually give way to the truth...

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On 1/8/2019 at 5:31 PM, David Von Pein said:

No. ....

REPORTER -- "Did you shoot the President?"

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "I work in that building."

REPORTER -- "Were you in the building at the time?"

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir."

Play-Audio-Logo.png

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/09/"Prayer Man" (And Other Assorted Topics)

 

Yes....

LHO:

"I didn't shoot anyone, no sir"

"...I emphatically deny these charges!"

Take a deep long look at LHO's face when that reporter famously tells him that he's been charged with murdering the President.......you tell me that isn't the face of a young man who's just realized he has been literally conned in the biggest way imaginable....I'm sorry but being honest, it is a sad yet powerful realization captured on film, not of a murderer, but of a man who probably realized that he was regrettably caught up (and possibly played some role even) in a most complex plot....

Is Prayer Man LHO? I'd bet money that it most likely is which is why we cannot get the original audiovisual material. Prayer has a reasonable and pretty strong argument, not to mention the evidence has explanatory scope and power. No argument has been as successful for any other candidate other than LHO.

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3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Derek:

I think you are new here.  I don't know how long you were a lurker.

I had  nothing to do with Doyle being ejected from this forum.  In fact, I did not even know he was gone.  Same thing at DPF.  The idea that a.) I have any kind of forceful influence with the moderators is simply untrue and b.) I have never even tried to do any such thing.  My only complaints I have ever made is one here and one there and it was about abusive language. And neither one was about Doyle.

I have always been of the persuasion that people have a right to voice their opinion no matter how stupid no matter how badly informed.  

Concerning Doyle, do I think he has gone around the bend on this?  Yes I do. And for the life of me I do not know why.  But to show you how bad he is on it, let me just mention two instances:

1.) He actually swallowed Duncan McRae's attempt to turn PM into PW.  Which Bart and two others have shown was simply a hoax.  

2.) He, through his agents, did not even want me to post Bart's critique of the second floor lunch room encounter at DPF.  Figure that one out.

As I said, I have no idea why he has become Captain Ahab with this whole issue.  I really do not.  It simply cannot be decided one way of the other until a better image is attained.  One would think that would be what Doyle would be trying to do.  I know that is what ROKC has tried to do.  Which should indicate something about the quality of the argument.

 

Thanks Jim. Yes I am brand new to the site. I was just letting you know what he was doing. I tend to believe your work in the line of the 3rd generation researchers. I grew up on Marrs and Hurt. I'm glad we can disagree on here and discuss facts and proof. I dont know Brian at all. Still dont believe Oswald was Prayer Man. Lol.

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10 hours ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Take a deep long look at LHO's face when that reporter famously tells him that he's been charged with murdering the President.......you tell me that isn't the face of a young man who's just realized he has been literally conned in the biggest way imaginable.

Oswald's facial expression at that moment is (and always will be) a subjective thing. CTers see shock and surprise. I see disgust and annoyance.

Who's to say who is right?

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/01/oswald-midnight-press-conference.html

Edited by David Von Pein

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13 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

However I am of the opinion that the Darnell film will not give a conclusive 'it''s him' answer due to the motion blur, but it can be very useful regarding other people in that segment.

 

Bart,

If you can get a high-resolution photo or scan of a Darnell frame, one that is has good contrast (i.e. not saturated at either the bright or dark ends of the range), then it is possible to remove both motion blur and defocus blur with a computer program. The process is call deconvolution, which essentially means the program does the opposite to the photo what the blurring did, thereby undoing it.

There is a free program that does this called SmartDeblur 1.27. Later, more advanced versions of the program cost US $50 to $100. But if I were actually paying for software, I'd consider buying the more popular program Focus Magic for US $65.


Before:

3ca5ceda07d41d58574075ddea1a73ad.jpg

 

After:

4f07dd2f275dab113d7230f14e8acda0.jpg


An image that is heavily unfocused will end up with artifacts, like what you see here. But at least you can make out the image.

Motion blur doesn't have that problem:


Before:

50778b66dbdc2a976de4ac9cf42672a9.png

 

After:

add01b36458841cd0df4ab213cd18410.png

 

BTW, by "high resolution" I mean a resolution typical of today's photographs. A VCR copy won't cut it, as you probably suspect.

NOTE: I don't think the free version will automatically determine how much of the blur is due to motion and how much to defocusing. In which case experimentation would be required in determining the combination of deblurrings that produces the best results.

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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23 hours ago, Derek Thibeault said:

Brian Doyle just ripped Jim D and Kathy Beckett on Facebook for being banned from here because he was arguing against the Prayer Man theory. Called Jim a fraud. I assume it was more than that since many people who don't agree are still here. That's what this forum is for the right to discuss issues with differing opinions. I believe in a lot of what Jim says but I still don't subscribe to the Prayer Man theory, of course with the right convincing I could. 

I am Mr. Doyle's favourite customer on his Facebook page and on jfkassassinationforum.com. If I abstract from all personal resentments, the only valid question raised there is whether Prayer Man could be Mrs. Sarah Stanton. This possibility was the proposed alternative to Lee Oswald being Prayer Man as Mrs. Stanton clearly stood on the top landing during the time when the Presidential motorcade was passing the Depository but her location in the doorway was not known for 54 years.

There is no other forum or Facebook page which would analyse the Stanton hypothesis more thorroughly than this Forum. The messages are scattered through different threads but those wishing to learn can find them. And for those who would like some summary, please find here one. As always I am focusing on physical characteristics of Mrs. Stanton and Prayer Man as this empirical evidence does not lie and cannot be twisted.

1. The first findings on Mrs. Stanton and Mrs. Sanders' whereabouts were posted on this Forum in November 2017 and on my blog thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com on January 31, 2018. Mrs. Sanders was a tiny lady and she is seen quite well in only one frame of Darnell film. She was standing where she said she was: close to the glass door and in the eastern part of the top landing. Mrs. Stanton's figure was assumed from a partial face seen in the space between Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley in Altgens6 and behind Bill Shelley's right shoulder in the same frame which shows both Prayer Man and Mrs. Sanders which logically excludes Mrs. Stanton as Prayer Man. The reconstruction of Altgens6 is now almost completed and I will post results on "Mrs. Sanders, Mrs. Stanton, where are you" thread in a short time.

2. The photograph of Mrs. Stanton appeared about end of May after Mrs. Linda Zambanini posted her findings (family members' names, photographs) of two ladies whose photographs were badly missed. Linda posted her data on FindAGrave in hope that the family members of the ladies would eventually contact her. Mr. Doyle went ahead and contacted Mrs. Stanton's relatives shortly afterwards and was  able to obtain a black-and-white photograph of Mrs. Stanton in the company of her son Larry. Mr. Doyle then recorded the interview with two members of Mrs. Stanon's family. Together, the photograph and the interview provided invaluable data allowing to test the possibility of Mrs. Stanton being Prayer Man directly. 

For the record: the interview can be listened at soundcloud.com:

I have made a transcript of this interview in June 2018, and here it is. In bold are the statements which refer to physical characteristics of Mrs. Stanton:

00:25 Sarah Stanton talked about the assassination with members of her family, it was the same story always.
01:21: Sarah stood on front steps and she left immediately after the shooting to get a better view.
01:26: Lee Oswald was drinking a soda when he was seen by Sarah.
01:36: Sarah Stanton was a very big woman.
02:08: Sarah Stanton saw Lee Oswald on stairs, she asked if she was going down, and he said he is going upstairs.
02:32: "No, I am going upstairs" "I came down to get the soda and I am going back to the room where he was working"
03:12: Sarah saw Lee Oswald holding a soda in his hand.
04:26: Lee got the soda from the machine there.
05:03: Sarah said Lee was going to eat and he just came to get a soda.
05:48: Sarah asked if Lee was going to have lunch. He said: "No, I am going back to my room.
06:09: The reason ... She wanna to talk to him because he was a very quite person... and he was not going to... to have conversation with nobody.
06:23: So, she said he never talked, so she asked him if he was going out to lunch. And he said "No, just a soda".
07:19: Sarah went down because President was already coming but he was not there yet. So she went to prepare herself and be on the stairs where she met Oswald.
08:15: "He went upstairs".
08:35: When asked if Sarah spoke to the FBI, the answer was "I dont' think so". Wanda explains: She did not wanna speak. And we don't know her reasons for it... but she did not want to speak to anybody,
and they were harassing her.... not harassing her, but any calls or I don't know they were coming over and trying to get information ... she really did not want to say anything, she did not want to be bothered.
09:50: The ladies could not confirm that Sarah spoke to the FBI.
09:59: Lee Oswald was a very quiet person, did not speak to anybody.
11:41: "We would not know what she told them" (the FBI).
12:23: Confirmed that Sarah was Prayer Man because of body shape.
12:28: Oswald went up before the motorcade came through.
13:58: When asked to confirm that Sarah had the same characteristics as Prayer Man, both women confirmed.
14:07: Confirmed that Sarah was about 5'5''.
14:37: Sarah could also be 5'6''.
14:49: Sarah herself said she was 5'4'' - 5'6''.
15:00: Agreed that their conclusion that Sarah was Prayer Man because she was taller than other doorway occupants.
15:36: Sarah weighed at least 300 pounds. She was over 300 pounds.
16:11: Sarah was big at the bottom and her hips, less so at her top. Her arms were big.
16:30: The picture with Sarah and her son Larry is not exactly from 1963 because Sarah was even bigger at that time than when she was photographed with Larry.
17:28: The colour of Sarah hair was grey in 1963.
18:41: Not remembered that Sarah would be ever dying her hair.
19:09: Maybe Sarah had a wig (loughing).
21:26: Did not agree that the face seen in Davidson's enhancement of Wiegman frame was Sarah's face.
22:20: Sarah was looking at the street, not into a purse.
22:30: The ladies think that Prayer Man was a woman.
22:48: Larry was tall over 6 feet.
23:29: Larry was 6'1''.

I was able to dowload the family photograph from the jfkassassination forum, https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,562.250.html, post by Mr. Barry Pollard, dated June 7, 2018 (it may not be available to non-members, however, I was able to retrieve it from this post). This photograph also appeared on this forum in June in association with the 3D reconstruction of Mrs. Stanton's figure. Again, for the record, this is the photograph sent by Mrs. Stanton's family to Mr. Doyle:

sarahstanton_larry_1960tgh.jpg

 

3. The next step was to determine Mrs. Stanton's body height. Recall, Prayer Man was 5'9'' if he stood on the second step or 5'2'' if he stood on the top landing. The photograph and the statements in the interview allow a pretty accurate estimate of Mrs. Stanton's body height. Her body height was in the range 5'4'' - 5'6'', however, the photograph gives even narrower range. Please note that the top of Mrs. Stanton's head reaches to the level of Larry's nose and Larry was either 6' or 6'1'. The distance between the crown of the head and the nose in a person measuring 6'0 or 6'1 is known.

headmeasures.jpg?w=768&h=292

 Data and the drawing were downloaded from Wikipedia.com, page "Human head". The five columns with numerical data (in inches) in both tables correspond to people of different body heights falling into the 1st, 5th, 50th, 95th, and 99th percentiles. Larry's body height of 6' or 6'1'' would fall into the rightmost 95th-99th percentile categories encircled by ellipses. 

The body height of Mrs. Stanton can be estimated by subtracting 10''-3 4/10'' = 6 6/10'' from Larry's body height. According to this analysis, Mrs. Stanton measured 5'5 4/10'' if Larry was 6', or 5'6 4/10'' if Larry was 6'1''.  I chose the value 5'5'' as the initial estimate, however, it is open to a change to 5'6'' or even 5'6 1/2'' if further analyses will require so.

4. The figures of Mrs. Stanton and Larry were modelled and compared with the original photograph. This step alone took several days - just to explain why I think that enough attention was paid to testing Stanton hypothesis.

fatlady1.jpg?w=768

 

5. Equipped with a fairly realistic figure and having a fair estimate of Mrs. Stanton's body height, her body was fitted to the approximate spot occupied by Prayer Man. Her arms were adjusted to the posture shown by  Prayer Man, and an overlay of Mrs. Stanton representing Prayer Man was made.

The next two images show Mrs. Stanton posing as Prayer Man.

stanton_pm_0.jpg

front_view_50_withlines.jpg

The overlay image shows also a red line highlighting the problems which exclude Mrs. Stanton as Prayer Man: 1. She was too tall, her hair exceed the top of Prayer Man's head by at about 2 inches. 2. Her arms were "chubby" as Mrs. Doyle likes to point out but short relative to Prayer Man's arms because Prayer Man was a male and was taller than Mrs. Stanton. 3. Mrs. Stanton would stand with her legs straight and that would cause the radiator standing behind the glass door visible to a larger extent than it is in reality. Of course, (4) Mrs. Stanton had dense light-gray hair which should be visible on Prayer Man's figure but this is not.

The right elbow joint is too far from the head of the man standing on lower steps in this 2D representation of the doorway. There is no way that a person standing fully on the top landing would have the elbow joint at the same location as Prayer Man in Darnell. This has to do with two facts: 1) Prayer Man effectively stood on the second step and therefore his whole body was slightly more out than a body of a person standing with both feet on the top landing. 2) While two people reachig with the top of their heads to 5'2'' but one standing 7'' lower (on the second step) than the other person (who would stand on the top step) will of course have their heads at equal plane, but the smaller body of the person on the top step will cause apparent lifting of other body parts such as arms. In the particular case of the Depository doorway, this difference would be about 2''. This is illustrated on the next two figures.

 

pm_height1.jpg

 

In (A), two people standing a step apart can reach with their heads to the same plane. However, the shorter person on the top landing will have his/her arms higher compared to the person on the lower step. In (B), the difference in the height of arms is shown with two parallel planes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope this summary answers fully the reasons why a woman with dense grey hair and being tall 5'5' - 5'6'' and standing with both feet on the top landing could not be Prayer Man.  One way or another, Brian deserves credit for obtaining the photograph and asking Mrs. Stanton's family some important details about physical features of Mrs. Stanton and her son.

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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One may wonder where then is Mrs. Stanton in Darnell frame shown in the post above. It is very simple: she stands right behind Mrs. Shelley. It took me several days to swallow the fact that Mrs. Shelley was only 5'4'' and about 2'' shorter than Mrs. Sarah Stanton. This short body height of Mr. Shelley was determined in the analysis of Altgens6.

Since Mrs. Stanton was taller than Mr. Shelley, we can make a prediction how the dark and light spots in Darnell should look like if Mrs. Stranton stood behind Mr. Shelley. We should see a light oval - Mr. Shelley's face, a dark strip representing his hair, and above this dark strip there should be another light strip corrsponding to Mrs. Stanton's light-grey hair.

Please find here the reconstruction of the critical part of Darnell still which accommodates three people - Mr. Williams, Mr. Shelley and Mrs. Stanton.darnell_3layers1.jpg

A. A cropped view of the Depository doorway in Darnell still #20130908-003704_1_1. The orange rectangle delineates the critical region of the picture which is analysed further in (B). B. Two light patches separated by a dark patch in the central region of the doorway. Please note that the dark strip corresponding to Mr. Shelley’s hair was above the oval light object – his face. Another bright strip corresponding to light-grey hair of a person standing behind Mr. Shelley is seen above the dark strip. The person standing behind Mr. Shelley had to be taller than Mr. Shelley and could only have a blond or light grey hair. C. An enhanced version of the cropped Darnell still allowing to separate the dark and light patches better than the original version. D. The enhanced version of Darnell still with rough contours delineating three people seen as one cloud in the center of the doorway. Red lines delineate Mr. Otis Williams. Blue lines refer to the figure of Mr. Shelley. Yellow lines tentatively delineate the hair and left shoulder and arm of Mrs. Stanton who according to this analysis stood behind Mr. Shelley during the time when Darnell film had been captured. 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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