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No worries, mate.  He said he "verked" in that building. 

Sorry, I have been watching to much Australian TV reruns,  McLeod's Daughters.

Edited by John Butler

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41 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

FC:

Are you and DVP looking for a first generation print of the films?

If so, where did you begin your quest?

If you have not done so then why are you saying that somehow Parker, Murphy, Andrej etc are all automatically wrong and you are right?  On what basis do you do this?

If you did think you were so correct then you would find the evidence to back it up.

Instead you sit there on the Seine River or whatever and take pictures of you with your 200 books on the JFK case.

Give us a break.

I have followed the "prayer man" theory for years and have read all that Greg Parker's team have put on line.
This is what I have to say to you, Mister DiEugenio :

  • you should indeed start by using the available films, and the original if possible
  • beware of all Photoshop-improved versions seen on the Internet : they often show what people have added into them, not what was there in the first place
  • I am genuinely surprised to hear that you seem to believe that "prayer man" was Oswald. You should know better
  • Oswald himself said he was inside the building
  • None of his colleagues saw him outside the building, on the steps. Buell Frazier never saw him there, for example.
  • Oswald never said that he had such an ironclad alibi, neither to the journalists, nor to his brother. Tell me, who, while being accused of murdering the President and bound to the electric chair, doesn't tell his family that he has an ironclad alibi ?
  • you should be more cautious before accusing everybody of lying ("Baker is a xxxx", "Truly is a xxxx", etc.)
  • When you talk about Kennedy's policies you are good, I mean, the Vitnam war, American history, JFK and his Asian Policy, etc. that's your field. The Garrison investigation too and I am the first to acknowledge that you have tremendous knowledge
  • but why on earth have you decided to stoop to Kamp's level ? Why lower yourself that much ? You're making a mistake. You should stay clear of this "prayer man" nonsense. It will go nowhere. It's a dead-end.

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FC:

When did I say PM was Oswald?  Can you point that out to me?  I mean that is almost as bad as what Duncan McRae says about me at his mud wrestling forum.  He says I was a big fan of the late Bill Cooper and endorsed the SS agent killed Kennedy idea.

HA HA HA :shutup 

What I am saying FC is I do not know on what basis you so stringently say that PM cannot be Oswald.

I have always said that the mystery will not be decided until someone discovers a first generation print.  Have you done so?  How did you do it living in France?

As per the second floor lunch encounter, I did not use Bart Kamp when I wrote about that.   If you look at my footnotes for The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today,  you will see that I came to that conclusion on my own.  But I did afterwards run an article by Bart on that subject at Kennedys and King. I agree with his conclusions and he did some nice work on that subject that went beyond mine.

Thanks for the complements on my other endeavors.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Francois:

your comments look to me like a deja vu because the points mentioned in your post have been discussed back than in 2013, in the original thread "Oswald leaving the TSBD?" Have you spent sufficient time to familiarise yourself with Prayer Man research? Or, do you consider it a waste of time?

As John Butler pointed out, there were no tape or stenographic recordings made during the interrogations  (the Homicide had at least two female stenographers) and so we do not know what exactly Lee told the interrogators. Therefore, we are reconstructing pieces of what he may have said from snippets of data or post-hoc interrogation reports which were made from recollections. It is not a mistake of CT researchers that hard data about Oswald's whereabouts and statements are missing.

Lee Oswald said, while being moved across the corridor at the DPD headquarters, that he worked in the building and therefore he obviously was in the building (... during the shooting). He was not asked by that reporter where he was after the shooting. That period of time is covered by the Postal Inspector Holmes words, also conveyed to Detective Ed Hicks on Friday, November 22. I am quoting from Stan Dane's book: Prayer Man: Out of the darkness and into the light, which is an excellent compendium of Sean Murphy's (and other people's) research:

Quote from the book:

Holmes's statements (repeated by Detective Hicks) were published in London Free Press, November 22, 1963:

Holmes: Oswald wanted to see what the "commotion" was. An officer challenged him at the front entrance.

Hicks: Oswald wanted to see what the "excitement" was. An officer challenged him at the front entrance.

(Note that Fritz also recalled - using the exact same words as Hicks - that Oswald claimed to have seen the "excitement").

End quote.

Captain Fritz in his WC testimony also says that Oswald saw the "excitement", yet we know and possibly agree that Oswald did not watch the motorcade. The point is that he was on the first floor (after going first to the second floor to buy Coke) during the shooting but outside when the commotion caused by the shooting broke up.

Being on Lee Oswald's place, I would say as little as possible under the circumstances and especially in the absence of a trustworthy lawyer. The reason is that if you reveal all information to the prosecutor, that party may twist testimonies and even alter the evidence before the defendant's lawyer can oversee the testomonies and evidence. To be accused as a President assassin and be a communist with pro-Castro leaning and facing an attorney such as Henry Wade was a dangerous, almost fatal situation. You may have heard about how Wade brought innocent people to death by just playing with testimonies, witnesses and evidence. Please consult the book Into the Nightmare by Joseph McBride for more data about the fairness of criminal prosecution under Henry Wade.

Given the difficulty to find out what Lee said and the Depository witnesses claimed, I better stick to physical evidence. The photographs do not lie. The Darnell still is somewhat blurred but it reveals enough information to be reconstructed. The 3D project is a tool to revive the doorway scenes as they were right then when the motorcade was moving across Dealey Plaza.

To recap the physical aspects: Prayer Man was a man, a white Caucasian,he was 5'9'',  he had dark hair as Oswald had, his hairline matched that of Oswald, he was a Depository employee, he wore a worker type of shirt with sleeves rolled up to the elbow, he displayed a leg posture which Lee Oswald often showed on various occasions. Before, back than when Sean Murphy led the Prayer Man discussions, the exclusion logic was often employed: who could be Prayer Man if not Oswald? While even this logical argument makes a very very good sense, we are much further today: not only can the exclusion logic apply to Mrs. Stanton and Mrs. Sanders but we can claim simililarity of Prayer Man and Lee Oswald's figure. This can hardly occur just by chance. If I take any potential candidate from the Book Depository and model his/her figure and fit that figure as Prayer Man, it will not match.  Today, I took Mrs. Stanton's model and placed it to Prayer Man's location, and it clearly did not work. However, Oswald's figure does show an excellent match.

I hope my post at least gives you some food for though if not the understanding that there is much more to Prayer Man than you are willing to acknowledge.

overlay_pmlho.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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4 hours ago, François Carlier said:

capture-20190112-151927.jpg

yellow circle: Lupe Whitaker

Green: ?

Blue: ?

Red: Oswald

 

I thought you were wasting your time?

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1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Francois:

your comments look to me like a deja vu because the points mentioned in your post have been discussed back than in 2013, in the original thread "Oswald leaving the TSBD?" Have you spent sufficient time to familiarise yourself with Prayer Man research? Or, do you consider it a waste of time?

As John Butler pointed out, there were no tape or stenographic recordings made during the interrogations  (the Homicide had at least two female stenographers) and so we do not know what exactly Lee told the interrogators. Therefore, we are reconstructing pieces of what he may have said from snippets of data or post-hoc interrogation reports which were made from recollections. It is not a mistake of CT researchers that hard data about Oswald's whereabouts and statements are missing.

Lee Oswald said, while being moved across the corridor at the DPD headquarters, that he worked in the building and therefore he obviously was in the building (... during the shooting). He was not asked by that reporter where he was after the shooting. That period of time is covered by the Postal Inspector Holmes words, also conveyed to Detective Ed Hicks on Friday, November 22. I am quoting from Stan Dane's book: Prayer Man: Out of the darkness and into the light, which is an excellent compendium of Sean Murphy's (and other people's) research:

Quote from the book:

Holmes's statements (repeated by Detective Hicks) were published in London Free Press, November 22, 1963:

Holmes: Oswald wanted to see what the "commotion" was. An officer challenged him at the front entrance.

Hicks: Oswald wanted to see what the "excitement" was. An officer challenged him at the front entrance.

(Note that Fritz also recalled - using the exact same words as Hicks - that Oswald claimed to have seen the "excitement").

End quote.

Captain Fritz in his WC testimony also says that Oswald saw the "excitement", yet we know and possibly agree that Oswald did not watch the motorcade. The point is that he was on the first floor (after going first to the second floor to buy Coke) during the shooting but outside when the commotion caused by the shooting broke up.

Being on Lee Oswald's place, I would say as little as possible under the circumstances and especially in the absence of a trustworthy lawyer. The reason is that if you reveal all information to the prosecutor, that party may twist testimonies and even alter the evidence before the defendant's lawyer can oversee the testomonies and evidence. To be accused as a President assassin and be a communist with pro-Castro leaning and facing an attorney such as Henry Wade was a dangerous, almost fatal situation. You may have heard about how Wade brought innocent people to death by just playing with testimonies, witnesses and evidence. Please consult the book Into the Nightmare by Joseph McBride for more data about the fareness of criminal prosecution under Henry Wade.

Given the difficulty to find out what Lee said and the Depository witnesses claimed, I better stick to physical evidence. The photographs do not lie. The Darnell still is somewhat blurred but it reveals enough information to be reconstructed. The 3D project is a tool to revive the doorway scenes as they were right then when the motorcade was moving across Dealey Plaza.

To recap the physical aspects: Prayer Man was a man, a white Caucasian,he was 5'9'',  he had dark hair as Oswald had, his hairline matched that of Oswald, he was a Depository employee, he wore a worker type of shirt with sleeves rolled up to the elbow, he displayed a leg posture which Lee Oswald often showed on various occasions. Before, back than when Sean Murphy led the Prayer Man discussions, the exclusion logic was often employed: who could be Prayer Man if not Oswald? While even this logical argument makes a very very good sense, we are much further today: not only can the exclusion logic apply to Mrs. Stanton and Mrs. Sanders but we can claim simililarity of Prayer Man and Lee Oswald's figure. This can hardly occur just by chance. If I take any potential candidate from the Book Depository and model his/her figure and fit that figure as Prayer Man, it will not match.  Today, I took Mrs. Stanton's model and placed it to Prayer Man's location, and it clearly did not work. However, Oswald's figure does show an excellent match.

I hope my post at least gives you some food for though if not the understanding that there is much more to Prayer Man than you are willing to acknowledge.

overlay_pmlho.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Wrong Andrej and badly so. And I will keep telling you until you understand so.

There is no human figure in front of Molina...period.

There is no Shelley and definitely no Lovelady either.

Keep dreaming.

Let me refer to an earlier statement you made in this thread where you mention Oswald's sleeve rolled up, where it is beyond a shadow of a doubt rolled down.

Edited by Bart Kamp

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Bart:

I am not sure we are speaking about the same photograph. I do not post my work often and for good reason: I prefer analysing and checking things properly not to confuse the community. If I post a version, it means that I spent very long time on that version and checked everything. I make multiple versions of the same just to be sure the results can be reproduced.

Maybe the difference in what we see in Darnell is that you think that the doorway scene disbanded right away after the last shot and people immediately left, while I think that the scene remained largely unchanged. I reason that Darnell film was taken only some 15 seconds after the last shot and the people still remained for that very short period largely at their places. There is a continuity in where people stood across Altgens6, Wiegman and Darnell.

Bill Shelley's testimony for the Warren Commission suggests that he was still at his spot when Mrs. Calvery reached the steps. It is very possible that this moment has been captured by Darnell. Therefore, Shelley is still seen in Darnell at a location where he stood in Wiegman and Altgens6. Similarly, Mr. Williams, the man in white shirt with long sleeves and a dark tie is seen in Darnell at the centre of the doorway - the same man is seen in Altgens6, Wiegman and Darnell. Mr. Williams re-entered the building in the batch of people about two minutes after the last shot. He then went to the fourth floor. Miss Hine mentioned the arrival of Mr. Williams:

Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.

Joe Molina was the man in white shirt with short sleeves, no tie, and standing about a feet or two to the left of Mr. Williams and one step higher. This man can be seen in Wiegman and Darnell, whereby he stepped one step down in the later frames of Darnell - this is why it was possible to see Mrs. Sanders who else would be obfuscated by Molinas extended arm which he used to shield his eyes. Molina, according to Miss Hine, also came back in about two minutes after the last shot.

If you disagree with the identities of the people whom I consider to be Shelley, Williams, Molina and Lovelady, please say who invaded the doorway to occupy those top positions within 15 seconds after the last shot?

It would be useful if you could indicate the identities of people you see in Altgens6 and Wiegman, maybe the discrepancy between our views occurs already there.

I cannot stop you posting disruptive posts, however, still think that you can at least explain your solution better than just by dismissing my work.

 

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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Andrej,

You need more time than 15 seconds between the time of the assassination and the Couch-Darnell filming of Prayer Man in the doorway of the TSBD.  Here’s my reasoning:

couch-no-one-on-bridge-a.jpg

This frame shows the first of the Camera Cars.  They are just at or a little past the SW corner of the TSBD.  As you can see in the frame there is no one ahead of them on Elm Street.  The first 12 elements of the motorcade have cleared Dealey Plaza.  The lead car in the frame is Camera Car #1 which had Weigman, Hofan, Craven, Ryan, and Atkins in it.  I think Weigman and Cravens had left the vehicle by this time.

The important point is that the lead vehicles in the caravan had already left Dealey Plaza.  That’s a fact that can’t be disputed based on this frame.  Mrs. Earle (Dearie) Cabell said the motorcade had come to a stop.  A standstill, just after their turn onto Elm Street.

Mr. Hubert. You also mentioned that you were acutely aware of the smell of

gunpowder?

 

Mrs. Cabell. Yes.

 

Mr. Hubert. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon after?

 

Mrs. Cabell. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the motorcade was

stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman Roberts said, “That is a

.30-06.” I didn’t know what a .30-06 was.

 

Mr. Hubert. Did he say that after all the shots were fired?

 

Mrs. Cabell. I believe so. There was much confusion.

 

Mr. Hubert. And it was about that time that you observed the odor?

 

Mrs. Cabell. Of gunpowder.

 

Mr. Hubert. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill?

 

Mrs. Cabell. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill.

 

Mr. Hubert. Therefore, of course, it was before you followed on to the

hospital?

 

Mrs. Cabell. Yes.

 

The Cabell segment of the motorcade was held up long enough for the first segment of the motorcade including the presidential limousine to leave the Plaza.  They were turned loose by the officers directing traffic and the 3rd segment containing the Camera Cars was help up until the 2nd segment had cleared the plaza.  The next frame is famous for the “smoke or rifle smoke” at the Grassy Knoll.

nation-pool-press-car-couch-1ab.jpg

There’s a couple of things noticeable here.  1.  There is still no railroad men and Officer Foster on the Under Pass.  2.  Mayor’s Car with Mrs. Cabell and the National Press Pool Car are still in the Plaza.  The earlier posted Couch-Darnell film shows that they have completely cleared the Plaza before the Camera Cars were released.  The 3rd segment was released when this group cleared the Plaza.

This photo has been edited so as to suggest the first elements left together and there is no second segment of the motorcade.  Just to the left of the Mayor’s Car there are people that are way to big to be there.  They are pasted into the photo.  This calls into question No. 3 which is not a convertible therefore it can’t be any of the following: 1. presidential limosine 2. Secret Service vehicle, or 3. Vice Presidential vehicle.

The 3rd segment is eventually released and the Camera Cars make a turn onto Elm Street and Weigman and Couch-Darnell film the doorway of the TSBD.

I can only suggest that someone or some controlling body did not want the Camera Cars to be on scene immediately after the assassination.

The time between the assassination and the filming of Prayer Man in the doorway of the TSBD can only be approximated.  It is not 15 seconds or 25 seconds as offered in one of the Utube videos. 

Try this reasoning.  The Zapruder film took about 26 seconds for the presidential limousine to turn onto Elm Street (which we don’t see because of the Zapruder Gap) and exit the Plaza.  This could be as much as 14 or 15 seconds longer if the Zapruder Gap missing frames are included.

If you give the same time (26 seconds) to the 2nd segment (Mayor’s Car, etc.) that increases the time to over a minute.  If you add start up time and time to reach motorcade speeds that would be a little longer.

Now we have to considered how long the 3rd segment was held up.  If as I speculated earlier the point was to keep the Camera Cars out of the assassination area until things had cleared there then it could suggest a longer time.

My estimation of the time after the assassination to the filming of Prayer Man could be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 minutes.  It is not a lot of time to change characters in the doorway but, it is enough time for Prayer Man / Oswald to leave Elm Street and return to the steps of the TSBD.

The reason he is in the doorway turned toward the east when everyone else is looking west is he is still filming the motorcade elements. 

If anyone ever finds Oswald’s missing camera and the film has not been altered then the scenes contained would give a different version of the assassination and clear Oswald’s name.   

Edited by John Butler

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15 hours ago, François Carlier said:

If Oswald was taking pictures of the motorcade, as you claim, do you think that it is possible that he took a picture of the Secret service agent who shot Kennedy by accident ? That would explain why Jack Ruby killed him. Maybe the Secret service sent him.
😁

Francois,

Jack Ruby, who was only fronting the Carousel Club for Carlos Marcello was in deep debt to the IRS.  So, he began skimming profits so that he could pay his debts.  Carlos Marcello found out about it and summoned Ruby to a meeting.  Ruby cried and trembled and begged Marcello to let him live and Marcello did.  However, Ruby owed a debt to the godfather.  When it came time to kill Oswald, Ruby had arranged to have Tippet kill Oswald.  When that failed, Ruby knew that if he didn't kill Oswald himself, Marcello would kill him.  Ruby had no choice.  And BTW...the Secret Service Officer who accidentally discharged his AR-15 didn't hit anyone.  It's a stupid theory that has been debunked.

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John:

the 15 second latency between Couch-Darnell and the last shot was Bart's own estimate. Chris Davidson provided a different and reasonable estimate of 30 seconds. If the cars have stopped before the last shot(s), the cars' locations cannot be used to calculate the timings of different films.

The shots rang out when Marrion Baker with his motor was about midway of Houston Street (between the corner of Main and Elm) and he was riding in the vicinity of the press car having Underwood, Dillard and Couch on board. If Baker's route would have been uninterrupted, he would be at the spot in front of Depository where he parked his bike in about 10 seconds. Add 10 seconds for dismounting and parking, and we have 20 seconds. We see him running in Couch/Darnell, some distance from the bike, and only then the doorway appears in the scene. I would say Chris's 30 seconds make very good sense.

I did not study the timing of Couch/Darnell in detail and therefore, appreciate your opinion which may clear this issue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Andrej,

There are different ways to calculate the time.  This calculation is based on the length of the Zapruder film in which the presidential limousine clears Dealey Plaza in about 50 seconds.  That is the time of the film 26 seconds and about 14 seconds calculated by David Josephs for the missing film in the Zapruder Gap.  That does not include any time for slow downs or stops witnesses talk about.  Earlier, using another method I had calculated the time to be about 1 1/2 to 3 minutes.  This method is probably closer. 

There were 3 segments to the caravan based on Mrs. Earle Cabell's testimony and the frames and photos shown.  Applying that reasoning of time to the second segment you have 50 seconds plus 50 seconds equaling 1 minute 40 seconds.  So, the estimate of 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 minute is fair. 

The third segment with Camera Car #3 containing Dilliard, Darnell, and Couch would add some extra time to this calculation.

The problem with Marion Baker showing up in Couch-Darnell and the whole story including entering the building and the 2nd floor incident is bogus.  It is a fraud designed to keep Oswald in the building and not on Elm Street and later on the steps as Prayer Man.  If that is Baker, the motorbike cop seen in Couch-Darnell then he passes Prayer Man / Oswald on the steps and does not meet him upstairs on the 2nd floor. 

The official story is that Baker encounters Oswald about 90 seconds after shots are fired.  Oswald had just come down from the Sniper's Nest and Baker had left the motorcade when he heard the first shot.  The John Martin film and the Couch-Darnell film gives the lie to that fraudulent account.  You can't have Marion Baker in Couch-Darnell approaching the TSBD when he is supposed to be in the building on the 2nd floor.

Marion Baker does not stick to the truth when he changes his story to match Roy Truly's after 11 22 63.  So, can the 90 seconds to meeting Oswald on the second floor be trusted?  No, from neither Baker or Truly can their accounts be trusted without suspicion.

Edited by John Butler

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John:

it is getting a bit too complicated to me. I need maybe to read more about the exact circumstances of how and when Couch/Darnell was filmed. When I open Robert Groden's version, it says right away at the beginning that the film started 25 seconds after the last shot and this timing is which I intuitively understand from the film scenes and some witness testimonies (Couch, Dillard, Jackson).  Also, if you look at the vantage point from which Couch/Darnell scene was shot, it would be just after their car turned from Houston to Elm. Couch then drove down to the triple underpass but he returned on foot and filmed the Depository from the south and west. The sequence of interest would therefore be filmed only few tens of seconds after the last shot rather than 75-90 seconds. I may be very wrong though, this is not really my specialty. Maybe a member with a better understanding of the timing of these events can help.

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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When I watch a Groden DVD assassination film, I do it with the sound off.  Robert Groden is ok and a fine fellow but, his ideas are sometimes out of tune with me and what I see.  I listened to the Couch-Darnell film and did not hear anything about 25 seconds.  I don't think Groden has studied the presidential motorcade and what they were comprised of and their behavior as much as I have.  That is apparent in in his film spiels.

Weigman in Camera Car #1 is stopped about where this next frame is taken.  He and others were kept there until the Mayor's Car and the National Press Pool Car cleared Dealey Plaza. That is what is shown in this frame and the Couch-Darnell frame shown earlier.

weigman-pm-in-doorway-1.jpg

The only way the Baker / Truly 2nd floor story can work is if their are two Oswalds; Doorway Man and Prayer Man.  I don't care much for this idea at all.  But, this frame suggests that the figure in the doorway of the TSBD is Doorway Man rather than Prayer Man.  This is based on the open shirt and rolled down sleeves.

Edited by John Butler

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18 hours ago, John Butler said:

Andrej,

You need more time than 15 seconds between the time of the assassination and the Couch-Darnell filming of Prayer Man in the doorway of the TSBD.  Here’s my reasoning:

couch-no-one-on-bridge-a.jpg

This frame shows the first of the Camera Cars.  They are just at or a little past the SW corner of the TSBD.  As you can see in the frame there is no one ahead of them on Elm Street.  The first 12 elements of the motorcade have cleared Dealey Plaza.  The lead car in the frame is Camera Car #1 which had Weigman, Hofan, Craven, Ryan, and Atkins in it.  I think Weigman and Cravens had left the vehicle by this time.

The important point is that the lead vehicles in the caravan had already left Dealey Plaza.  That’s a fact that can’t be disputed based on this frame.  Mrs. Earle (Dearie) Cabell said the motorcade had come to a stop.  A standstill, just after their turn onto Elm Street.

Mr. Hubert. You also mentioned that you were acutely aware of the smell of

gunpowder?

 

Mrs. Cabell. Yes.

 

Mr. Hubert. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon after?

 

Mrs. Cabell. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the motorcade was

stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman Roberts said, “That is a

.30-06.” I didn’t know what a .30-06 was.

 

Mr. Hubert. Did he say that after all the shots were fired?

 

Mrs. Cabell. I believe so. There was much confusion.

 

Mr. Hubert. And it was about that time that you observed the odor?

 

Mrs. Cabell. Of gunpowder.

 

Mr. Hubert. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill?

 

Mrs. Cabell. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill.

 

Mr. Hubert. Therefore, of course, it was before you followed on to the

hospital?

 

Mrs. Cabell. Yes.

 

The Cabell segment of the motorcade was held up long enough for the first segment of the motorcade including the presidential limousine to leave the Plaza.  They were turned loose by the officers directing traffic and the 3rd segment containing the Camera Cars was help up until the 2nd segment had cleared the plaza.  The next frame is famous for the “smoke or rifle smoke” at the Grassy Knoll.

nation-pool-press-car-couch-1ab.jpg

There’s a couple of things noticeable here.  1.  There is still no railroad men and Officer Foster on the Under Pass.  2.  Mayor’s Car with Mrs. Cabell and the National Press Pool Car are still in the Plaza.  The earlier posted Couch-Darnell film shows that they have completely cleared the Plaza before the Camera Cars were released.  The 3rd segment was released when this group cleared the Plaza.

This photo has been edited so as to suggest the first elements left together and there is no second segment of the motorcade.  Just to the left of the Mayor’s Car there are people that are way to big to be there.  They are pasted into the photo.  This calls into question No. 3 which is not a convertible therefore it can’t be any of the following: 1. presidential limosine 2. Secret Service vehicle, or 3. Vice Presidential vehicle.

The 3rd segment is eventually released and the Camera Cars make a turn onto Elm Street and Weigman and Couch-Darnell film the doorway of the TSBD.

I can only suggest that someone or some controlling body did not want the Camera Cars to be on scene immediately after the assassination.

The time between the assassination and the filming of Prayer Man in the doorway of the TSBD can only be approximated.  It is not 15 seconds or 25 seconds as offered in one of the Utube videos. 

Try this reasoning.  The Zapruder film took about 26 seconds for the presidential limousine to turn onto Elm Street (which we don’t see because of the Zapruder Gap) and exit the Plaza.  This could be as much as 14 or 15 seconds longer if the Zapruder Gap missing frames are included.

If you give the same time (26 seconds) to the 2nd segment (Mayor’s Car, etc.) that increases the time to over a minute.  If you add start up time and time to reach motorcade speeds that would be a little longer.

Now we have to considered how long the 3rd segment was held up.  If as I speculated earlier the point was to keep the Camera Cars out of the assassination area until things had cleared there then it could suggest a longer time.

My estimation of the time after the assassination to the filming of Prayer Man could be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 minutes.  It is not a lot of time to change characters in the doorway but, it is enough time for Prayer Man / Oswald to leave Elm Street and return to the steps of the TSBD.

The reason he is in the doorway turned toward the east when everyone else is looking west is he is still filming the motorcade elements. 

If anyone ever finds Oswald’s missing camera and the film has not been altered then the scenes contained would give a different version of the assassination and clear Oswald’s name.   

In Couch, if you care to study carefully, you can see Wiegman filming the Hesters.

Time Wiegman's dash from  point of getting out of car and filming the Hesters

And 15 seconds is being generous between shot 3 and Baker's run.

Common sense instead of calculations that make no sense whatsoever.

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Bart,

Unless time ran really, really slow in Dealey Plaza that day there is more time involved.  As you see 15 seconds are not enough to change the cast of characters in Weigman to the cast of characters we see in Couch-Darnell.  The two scenes are totally different.

Weigman-couch-compare.jpg

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