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22 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bart:

I am not sure we are speaking about the same photograph. I do not post my work often and for good reason: I prefer analysing and checking things properly not to confuse the community. If I post a version, it means that I spent very long time on that version and checked everything. I make multiple versions of the same just to be sure the results can be reproduced.

Maybe the difference in what we see in Darnell is that you think that the doorway scene disbanded right away after the last shot and people immediately left, while I think that the scene remained largely unchanged. I reason that Darnell film was taken only some 15 seconds after the last shot and the people still remained for that very short period largely at their places. There is a continuity in where people stood across Altgens6, Wiegman and Darnell.

Bill Shelley's testimony for the Warren Commission suggests that he was still at his spot when Mrs. Calvery reached the steps. It is very possible that this moment has been captured by Darnell. Therefore, Shelley is still seen in Darnell at a location where he stood in Wiegman and Altgens6. Similarly, Mr. Williams, the man in white shirt with long sleeves and a dark tie is seen in Darnell at the centre of the doorway - the same man is seen in Altgens6, Wiegman and Darnell. Mr. Williams re-entered the building in the batch of people about two minutes after the last shot. He then went to the fourth floor. Miss Hine mentioned the arrival of Mr. Williams:

Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.

Joe Molina was the man in white shirt with short sleeves, no tie, and standing about a feet or two to the left of Mr. Williams and one step higher. This man can be seen in Wiegman and Darnell, whereby he stepped one step down in the later frames of Darnell - this is why it was possible to see Mrs. Sanders who else would be obfuscated by Molinas extended arm which he used to shield his eyes. Molina, according to Miss Hine, also came back in about two minutes after the last shot.

If you disagree with the identities of the people whom I consider to be Shelley, Williams, Molina and Lovelady, please say who invaded the doorway to occupy those top positions within 15 seconds after the last shot?

It would be useful if you could indicate the identities of people you see in Altgens6 and Wiegman, maybe the discrepancy between our views occurs already there.

I cannot stop you posting disruptive posts, however, still think that you can at least explain your solution better than just by dismissing my work.

 

 

 

Shelley lied and so did Lovelady when it comes to their timing 0f leaving the steps. Had they spoken the truth then they would have seen Oswald coming out guzzling his coke down.

Even the WC boys doubted them during the questioning. 

Shelley is clearly seen in Couch with Lovelady on their way to the railroad yard, confirmed by Shelley's first DPD statement and Lovelady's first FBI statement.

Furthermore a newspaper report is quoting Lovelady at noticing officer Smith making his way to the RR yard. Did not mention Baker at all.

Also if Lovelady and Shelley stay that long on those steps, then leave and then see Baker and Truly at the bottom of the steps raring to go in then we REALLY have a timing problem for the 2nd floor clusterf___ as Oswald would have already been long gone.

There is no photographic evidence to support your pet theory of them two standing on those steps. None whatsoever, anything different is straight from dingo Brian Doyle's lalaland.

Williams went to the 4th floor to get a better view first before returning to the 2nd floor.

I have no idea who those people are on the steps, the film is of too bad a quality to discuss or determine, so patience is needed till a better copy comes about.

My posts may be disruptive, but they make much more sense that what you are trying to get away with. Not too long ago you were part of the Fetzer club and had to be straightened out then, and things are not much different now.

Beliefs........

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3 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Bart,

Unless time ran really, really slow in Dealey Plaza that day there is more time involved.  As you see 15 seconds are not enough to change the cast of characters in Weigman to the cast of characters we see in Couch-Darnell.  The two scenes are totally different.

Weigman-couch-compare.jpg

Another belief with no factual basis.

Keep at it you lot....soon this thread will get shutdown as well.

 

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I have checked Richard Trask's "Pictures of the Pain" for details of Couch's and Darnell's movements after the shooting. These narratives do not offer any accurate infomation about the timings of their films. However, a useful information  was provided by Marrion Baker: "Deciding to tack his bike at the curb, Baker heard Chief Curry on the radio say to "Get some men up to the railroad"." This (actually slightly different - Baker did not remember) statement by Chief Curry was pronounced right after "Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by". The very next statement was the one which Baker heard: "Get a man on top of that triple uderpass and see what happend up there".  These statements by Curry occurred within seconds after the shooting. Obviously, It did not take Baker too long to start running toward the Depository as seen in Couch/Darnell. Fifteen to twenty seconds is possible.

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Bart:

I have become used over the time to be abused for my work, however, you proved to be the champion. Please do not ever turn to me or I will place you on ignore.

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I must have touched a nerve, but you know I am true as much as you wish to ignore/forget that fact.

It's a pretty free country Andrej, so be it and put me on ignore.

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I did get to review the Prayer Man website and watch the 90 min video on YouTube and it's really done well. It's got me more on the side of Prayer Man is Oswald than I was before, maybe 70%. The research and presentation are excellent. It did change my mind about the second-floor encounter though. So many varying accounts including individuals contradicting themselves(Baker). My only issue with Oswald outside is Buell Frazier, why does he not identify him since Frazier was right there? Does he not see him? Does he lie? He didn't mention it at the mock trial, WC, or anyone else that I can find.

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On 1/12/2019 at 1:57 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill Shelley's testimony for the Warren Commission suggests that he was still at his spot when Mrs. Calvery reached the steps.

 

Andrej,

Bill Shelley lied in his WC testimony. Read his first-day DPD statement. He said that after the the shooting he crossed the road and bumped into Gloria Calvery at the little concrete island there. He then returned to the TSBD, went inside, and called his wife.

Of course it's possible that he again stopped at the steps before going inside. But the fact that we see Gloria Calvery at the steps means that Shelley had already left the steps and returned by the time of the frame you are modeling.

 

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5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Shelley is clearly seen in Couch with Lovelady on their way to the railroad yard, confirmed by Shelley's first DPD statement and Lovelady's first FBI statement.


Andrej, the above statement is not true. Check for yourself.

Shelley's first DPD statement
Lovelady's first FBI statement

It wasn't till March 1964, right before testifying for the Warren Commission, that Shelley and Lovelady changed their stories and said they walked to the railroad yard.

They were talked into changing their stories so that their testimonies could be used to discredit Victoria Adams.

 

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2 hours ago, Derek Thibeault said:

My only issue with Oswald outside is Buell Frazier, why does he not identify him since Frazier was right there?


Don't know if it's true, but someone on another thread said that Frazier was afraid for his kids. I've always wondered why Frazier provided dubious testimony against Oswald (the rifle's paper sack) and then backed off (the content of the paper sack was too short to be a rifle). This thing about his kids could explain it.

 

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Blimey.  Another belief with no factual basis.

Weigman-couch-compare.jpg

This documents the fact there was more than 15 seconds or 25 seconds between the Weigman frame and the Couch-Darnell frame.  Study it. 

Dave Weigman was in Camera Car #1 when he heard the first shot.  The vehicle was on Houston Street when he jumped out and ran to Elm Street.

Weigman said “The car was stopping. I’d better run around there and see what was happening. When I got out I knew I better get around the corner. The car was stopping. I’d better run around there and see what was happening and I remember the third shot.”

Weigman was on Elm Street before any of the Camera Cars were released to proceed.  By the time Camera Car #3 with Couch and Darnell arrive in Dealey Plaza the crowd watching the motorcade had dispersed and people were returning to the TSBD.  The Weigman frame shows the 2nd segment of the motorcade, the Mayor's Car and National Press Pool Car, being released and moving down Elm Street.  The Weigman frame shows a different crowd because Mrs. Earle Cabell, in the Mayor's Car, said she was held up in the Houston / Elm turn.  Later the 3rd segment was released. 

This frame comparison shows an entirely different crowd returning to the TSBD.  My estimate for the time differential is 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 minute. 

This is a controversial take on the time of the films.  Let the reader decide. 

Edited by John Butler

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4 hours ago, Derek Thibeault said:

I did get to review the Prayer Man website and watch the 90 min video on YouTube and it's really done well. It's got me more on the side of Prayer Man is Oswald than I was before, maybe 70%. The research and presentation are excellent. It did change my mind about the second-floor encounter though. So many varying accounts including individuals contradicting themselves(Baker). My only issue with Oswald outside is Buell Frazier, why does he not identify him since Frazier was right there? Does he not see him? Does he lie? He didn't mention it at the mock trial, WC, or anyone else that I can find.

Look a little more.  Frazier in later years said words to the effect of he had to protect his family.  I.E., if he spoke up and told the truth he had been threatened with the possibility of them being harmed. 

Edited by Ron Bulman

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When I wrote The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, I went back and revisited the George O'Toole book, The Assassination Tapes.

If you recall, he was very skilled in the use of the PSE.  When he ran it on tapes of Oswald, he concluded that Oswald was truthful.  When he ran it on Frazier, he concluded that he was lying.

This is one of the points that made me go back and reassess the whole Frazier story.  See, according to Bill SImpich, that afternoon the first of the news about the name of the rifle used was broadcast.  According to both Walt Brown and Bill, the first rifle named in the local  broadcasts was the Enfield.   This was the type of rifle that Frazier owned.  Then Linnie Mae Randle wandered over to the Paine home with the police there.  She told them about her brother giving Oswald a ride to work that day.  She then told them about Oswald's alleged bag and also where her brother worked.  

Wesley was then searched for, he was not easy to find, and he was detained.  His house was searched and they found the Enfield.  This was the background to the infamous midnight polygraph that no one on the DPD wanted to remember.  But which Jim Bishop later wrote, Frazier reacted with such controlled hysteria that it was hard to get a reading on him. (see page, 208)

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1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Blimey.  Another belief with no factual basis.

Weigman-couch-compare.jpg

This documents the fact there was more than 15 seconds or 25 seconds between the Weigman frame and the Couch-Darnell frame.  Study it. 

Dave Weigman was in Camera Car #1 when he heard the first shot.  The vehicle was on Houston Street when he jumped out and ran to Elm Street.

Weigman said “The car was stopping. I’d better run around there and see what was happening. When I got out I knew I better get around the corner. The car was stopping. I’d better run around there and see what was happening and I remember the third shot.”

Weigman was on Elm Street before any of the Camera Cars were released to proceed.  By the time Camera Car #3 with Couch and Darnell arrive in Dealey Plaza the crowd watching the motorcade had dispersed and people were returning to the TSBD.  The Weigman frame shows the 2nd segment of the motorcade, the Mayor's Car and National Press Pool Car, being released and moving down Elm Street.  The Weigman frame shows a different crowd because Mrs. Earle Cabell, in the Mayor's Car, said she was held up in the Houston / Elm turn.  Later the 3rd segment was released. 

This frame comparison shows an entirely different crowd returning to the TSBD.  My estimate for the time differential is 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 minute. 

This is a controversial take on the time of the films.  Let the reader decide. 

Wiegman's position right after he jumps out of his car.

Use the lane stripe for guidance.

He runs approx 165ft then films the Hester's.

Groden's version shows it takes approx 16 sec for this to occur.

165ft/15sec = 11/1.47 = 7.5mph

31793835807_6bee1d1315_o.jpg

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33 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

When I wrote The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, I went back and revisited the George O'Toole book, The Assassination Tapes.

If you recall, he was very skilled in the use of the PSE.  When he ran it on tapes of Oswald, he concluded that Oswald was truthful.  When he ran it on Frazier, he concluded that he was lying.

This is one of the points that made me go back and reassess the whole Frazier story.  See, according to Bill SImpich, that afternoon the first of the news about the name of the rifle used was broadcast.  According to both Walt Brown and Bill, the first rifle named in the local  broadcasts was the Enfield.   This was the type of rifle that Frazier owned.  Then Linnie Mae Randle wandered over to the Paine home with the police there.  She told them about her brother giving Oswald a ride to work that day.  She then told them about Oswald's alleged bag and also where her brother worked.  

Wesley was then searched for, he was not easy to find, and he was detained.  His house was searched and they found the Enfield.  This was the background to the infamous midnight polygraph that no one on the DPD wanted to remember.  But which Jim Bishop later wrote, Frazier reacted with such controlled hysteria that it was hard to get a reading on him. (see page, 208)

I've never read about the Enfield being broadcast as the weapon.  Had read a rifle was found in his sister's house where he lived (who brought it home after the assassination and stashed it back there to be found, no one was observed carrying one in, or out at he TSBD).  Interesting the story progresses from an Enfield at Fraizer's residence to a Mauser found by former sporting goods store owner and gun salesman at it by DPD Officer Wietzman (?), and witnessed by Dallas County Deputy Sheriff (1962 officer of the Year) Roger Craig. Then it became Oswald's rifle he never picked up from the Dallas Post office.  

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