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On 1/12/2019 at 9:53 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

from Roy W., meant to be separate from the photo immediately below:

a gift for Cabal (Coup) Logians (CLs):

Prayer Man (PM) is Jack Edwin Dougherty (JED).

Photo with tracings from Andrej S. :

molina_williams.jpg

Linda Giovanna Zambanini has an excellent collection of JED photos titled, something like, "The Elusive Jack Dougherty, Elusive No More."  I'd link it here if I had the computer skills of a five-year old.

Anyone familiar with JED knows he was a huge man, about 6' 3" or 4" and heavy.  So okay, how does that square with the world's leading expert on PM photos, Andrej Stancak (AS), figuring PM is around Ozzie's height, about 5' 9"?  Huh, how?

Because of one small simple axiom in AS's figuring.  Andrej figures PM is effectively one step down on the stairs.  But I say he's effectively two steps, which takes another 7" off his apparent height compared to Wes Frazier.  So PM is a little taller than the tall, 6' 2" Frazier.  JED learned how to goldbrick and lean in the Army.  It has never been determined why he left early under strange circumstances.  Anyway, PM (JED) not only has his left (top) foot on the first step (not the landing), and his right foot on the second step, he is also leaning back against that solid block of masonry on both sides of the steps.  There are other pictures like the one above that show this, but again...no skills.

Also, one can see PM's size by how big his torso is compared to the tall WF.  PM's is bigger, and that's not only because his shirt is untucked.  PM is a big man.  JED was a big man, and he was Bill Shelley's straw boss/second in command/rat fink snitch keeping an eye on the working help.  "Beats workin'" -- JED's motto all his life.  He got there an hour earlier every day to check on the hourly as they arrived, maybe crowd the doorway a little and sniff the odd less-than-perfect slave who was suspected of early whiskey or reefer.

Ron Bulman well noted above how WF has been hot and cold willing to discuss the PM issue.  I believe you are right, Ron, that he is even now afraid for his beautiful family.  I thought it strange that WF cancelled at the last minute for the big Dallas conference this year.  I believe so many of the puzzle pieces are clarifying that he was told "Say nothing," especially about PM.

Back to JED.  Everyone who sees any of his testimony sees that it's all over the place.  And that was always with a handler, usually his DPD uncle right there!  Just one small piece of absurdia:  JED said he was by the fifth floor elevators when the shooting went down; he was actually there shortly BEFORE the shooting, keeping an eye on those elevators and the three hourly help diagonally across the floor in the SE corner.  BECAUSE JED did not see or hear Bonnie Ray and friends bat *ss to the west side of the floor and they did not see or hear him.  Because JED was not there.

There's a ton more about Dougherty, named Jack at birth not John.  Too much to go into here.  This is running on.  One more little gift for you goodly CLs:

JED was telling the simple truth when he said Ozzie didn't carry his "curtain rods" (gangster talk for rods that mean curtains to the recipient) INTO THE BUILDING.  Oz had the bossman's informer, JED, figured out the first day he worked there.  All the Wizard had to do was stick his package in one of the many stacks of pallets on the way to the loading dock.  Funny thing about a stack of pallets, you can only see what may be in a pallet if it's at eye level.  (I know because I worked at a huge warehouse and we hid all kinds of things in those pallets) I figure one of the Greatest Heroes of the 20th century, no, of all history, the Wizard of Ozzeewaldskovitchnikovskyev, stashed his curtain rod (MC 6.5 mm piece of barely good enough crap) low in one of those pallet piles, easy to retrieve later.

The thing that the Powers That Be hate more than anything else is fragging and any discussion or any knowledge of fragging.  In Vietnam, fragging was epidemic before it was over.  Congress never allowed even any DISCUSSION of the phenomenon.  Don't wanna give the grunts/slaves any ideas.

Hoover and many others at the top HAD to know the Wiz popped Johnny Con two good times, once through the back and once through the wrist.  And they didn't want that knowledge getting out.  Which was another bonus of keeping the WARren COmmissioN real simple, simple as the geocentric universe, so the deaf dumb blind mute of those among us can say the "tragedy" obeyed  Occam's Razor.

PM not being Ozzie, yet being JED, speaks volumes about the scope of the plot.  The elevators, phones, and electricity were controlled in TSBD, and JED was a low man on that totem pole.  Wes Frazier must have at least figured out some of the problems with the official whitewash.

Edited by Roy Wieselquist
spelling of DOugherty, like dough, not daughter

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4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Andrej, the above statement is not true. Check for yourself.

Shelley's first DPD statement
Lovelady's first FBI statement

It wasn't till March 1964, right before testifying for the Warren Commission, that Shelley and Lovelady changed their stories and said they walked to the railroad yard.

They were talked into changing their stories so that their testimonies could be used to discredit Victoria Adams.

 

Thanks, Sandy, for pointing to Bill Shelley's DPD statement. We have two conflicting statements and I can only say that my analysis favors the version outlined in Bill Shelley's WC testimony. In Couch/Darnel, we see Carl Jones just approaching a lamp post on the island in ftont of the depository. Carl Jones was in the very front line of Depository observers, standing on the second step. Logically, he would be the first to get to the island, and a person standing on the top landing would be the last to come, or later than Carl Jones. Shelley firmly stays at his spot on the top landing even at end of Wiegman. This would be maybe up to 10 seconds after the last shot (I did not study the timeline of Wiegman in detail yet, so please feel free to correct me) while the doorway appears in Darnell in about 20 seconds. This was not a long time at all, and we should see Shelley just descending from steps or being on the sidewalk in front of the depository in Darnell.. And what about the lady in dark at the lower step  - if she were Gloria Calvery then Shelley could only be at steps because there was just no time for Shelley to bump into her on the island when she was at the steps at about 20 seconds and Shelley is still on steps at end of Wiegman.

Of course, maybe some new data may change this interpretation completely and I will be ready to change the figure on the top step from Shelley to that new person. However, where would this person come from - from the building? Who would this person be - the whereabouts of all Depository employees are known quite well.

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1 hour ago, Roy Wieselquist said:

Linda Giovanna Zambanini has an excellent collection of JED photos titled, something like, "The Elusive Jack Dougherty, Elusive No More."  I'd link it here if I had the computer skills of a five-year old.

Anyone familiar with JED knows he was a huge man, about 6' 3" or 4" and heavy.  So okay, how does that square with the world's leading expert on PM photos, Andrej Stancak (AS), figuring PM is around Ozzie's height, about 5' 9"?  Huh, how?

Because of one small simple axiom in AS's figuring.  Andrej figures PM is effectively one step down on the stairs.  But I say he's effectively two steps, which takes another 7" off his apparent height compared to Wes Frazier.  So PM is a little taller than the tall, 6' 2" Frazier.  JED learned how to goldbrick and lean in the Army.  It has never been determined why he left early under strange circumstances.  Anyway, PM (JED) not only has his left (top) foot on the first step (not the landing), and his right foot on the second step, he is also leaning back against that solid block of masonry on both sides of the steps.  There are other pictures like the one above that show this, but again...no skills.

Also, one can see PM's size by how big his torso is compared to the tall WF.  PM's is bigger, and that's not only because his shirt is untucked.  PM is a big man.  JED was a big man, and he was Bill Shelley's straw boss/second in command/rat fink snitch keeping an eye on the working help.  "Beats workin'" -- JED's motto all his life.  He got there an hour earlier every day to check on the hourly as they arrived, maybe crowd the doorway a little and sniff the odd less-than-perfect slave who was suspected of early whiskey or reefer.

Ron Bulman well noted above how WF has been hot and cold willing to discuss the PM issue.  I believe you are right, Ron, that he is even now afraid for his beautiful family.  I thought it strange that WF cancelled at the last minute for the big Dallas conference this year.  I believe so many of the puzzle pieces are clarifying that he was told "Say nothing," especially about PM.

Back to JED.  Everyone who sees any of his testimony sees that it's all over the place.  And that was always with a handler, usually his DPD uncle right there!  Just one small piece of absurdia:  JED said he was by the fifth floor elevators when the shooting went down; he was actually there shortly BEFORE the shooting, keeping an eye on those elevators and the three hourly help diagonally across the floor in the SE corner.  BECAUSE JED did not see or hear Bonnie Ray and friends bat *ss to the west side of the floor and they did not see or hear him.  Because JED was not there.

There's a ton more about Daugherty, named Jack at birth not John.  Too much to go into here.  This is running on.  One more little gift for you goodly CLs:

JED was telling the simple truth when he said Ozzie didn't carry his "curtain rods" (gangster talk for rods that mean curtains to the recipient) INTO THE BUILDING.  Oz had the bossman's informer, JED, figured out the first day he worked there.  All the Wizard had to do was stick his package in one of the many stacks of pallets on the way to the loading dock.  Funny thing about a stack of pallets, you can only see what may be in a pallet if it's at eye level.  (I know because I worked at a huge warehouse and we hid all kinds of things in those pallets) I figure one of the Greatest Heroes of the 20th century, no, of all history, the Wizard of Ozzeewaldskovitchnikovskyev, stashed his curtain rod (MC 6.5 mm piece of barely good enough crap) low in one of those pallet piles, easy to retrieve later.

The thing that the Powers That Be hate more than anything else is fragging and any discussion or any knowledge of fragging.  In Vietnam, fragging was epidemic before it was over.  Congress never allowed even any DISCUSSION of the phenomenon.  Don't wanna give the grunts/slaves any ideas.

Hoover and many others at the top HAD to know the Wiz popped Johnny Con two good times, once through the back and once through the wrist.  And they didn't want that knowledge getting out.  Which was another bonus of keeping the WARren COmmissioN real simple, simple as the geocentric universe, so the deaf dumb blind mute of those among us can say the "tragedy" obeyed  Occam's Razor.

PM not being Ozzie, yet being JED, speaks volumes about the scope of the plot.  The elevators, phones, and electricity were controlled in TSBD, and JED was a low man on that totem pole.  Wes Frazier must have at least figured out some of the problems with the official whitewash.

 

Roy:

the possibility that a very tall person standing on the third step has been analysed back then in Spring of 2016, I guess it was in one of Prayer Man threads. If you tell me how the alleged Dougherty stood in the doorway, I can fit that figure into Darnell for you to see what is the problem. I would need to know if you want him with his right foot on the third step and his left foot on the second step (similar to how Prayer Man stands in my analysis) or you would think that he stood with both feet on the third step. The difference is that if the tall man stood with both his feet on the third step, the plane paralleling his chest will be parallel with the plane of the glass door (I would need to turn him toward his right a bit).

Before doing anything, please contemplate the outcome: if a tall Prayer Man stood on the third step, he would be further away from the top landing. However, his head should still align with the aluminum door frame, therefore, he would need to be moved towards the east which means out of the shadow. He would be fully lit by the sunlight, unlike Prayer Man in Darnell. Of course. the distances of this tall man relative to neighboring figures would also change. One of the reasons for modelling all doorway occupants is to demonstrate that the geometric relationships in the doorway hold throughout, not only for Prayer Man. 

If you wish, let us do this exercise. It is an advantage of the 3D doorway model that it allows testing different hypotheses which otherwise may be difficult to verify.

 

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Andrej,

Yes, definitely, I think Dougherty had his right foot two risers down from the top of the steps.  And his left foot was one step up, one riser from the landing. I barely understand all your excellent math/science workings of the Darnell, Wiegman,etc. photos that catch our buddy Prayer Man.  (BTW, he's holding a coffee cup with both hands, it's that's simple, which gave him the excellent appellation, PM.)  JED was famous for walking around with a drink, unlike the working stiffs he kept an eye on for Bill Shelley; he was BS's second pair of eyes.

As I say, I barely understand how you bring out different aspects of the PM photos, and your geometric...what?  But I sure do get a lot out of the results.  You, C. Davidson, D. Josephs same thing.  I try to get a big-picture idea from looking at the different treatments you give...I guess I can't explain it.  Just, please, keep doing what you're doing.  I'm not a math/sci dummy, anything but.  But I AM a tech dummy, missed the boat on that.  "Too late in life" is my excuse.  Like, it's too hard to learn another language after a point.

JED, Oz, Eddie Piper, and Troy West are the only TSBD employees who weren't with others who could corroborate their stories.  All but Ozzie had their "jobs" for the presidential visit.  Per Bill Shelley's orders, probably from Ochus V. Campbell, thus from H. L. Hunt and the oil boys.  Dougherty, Piper, West had no idea they were helping the plot beforehand.  I bet they were scared witless after the fact.  But then their Bossmen assured them and told them, "Just don't say anything, and you'll be all right."

JED had the mind of a child.  There's a lot I can report about that.  When the War Con asked him if he'd gone out of the country while he was in the service, he joyously boasted, "Yes, Sir!" in good Army butt-kissing parlance.  "Where did you go?"  Answer: "I went to INDIANA!" he cried with the utmost pride.  It was all the COmmisioNerS could do to keep from busting out laughing.  Then again, his family (with whom he lived his entire life) planted Texas chauvinism in his stunted, hormonally-starved brain.  (His beard never came fully in, just like the crazy giant "Lewis" Powell who was in on the assassination of Abe Lincoln's administration.)  He actually believed Texas was a sovereign nation in chorus with those around him.

There's plenty more, but time prevents...

I tell you, Andrej, the Coup Logian research community is advancing at warp speed.  On nearly every front, but time prevents the exposition of secondary matters.

Edited by Roy Wieselquist

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Chris Davidson positioning of Weigman is not quite correct.  Weigman said he jumped out of the car on Houston Street because the car was stopping.  He had to run around the corner.  The car stopped on Houston Street.  His vehicle, Camera Car #1, was not in the turn.  In the turn was the Mayor's Car as stated by Mrs. Earle Cabell.

Besides, Weigman filming of people may have been 16 seconds.  And, that really has nothing to do with when the Camera Cars were released to travel down Houston Street, make the turn as shown in their films, and proceed on down Elm. 

The timing problem is how long they were stopped on Houston Street with the rest of the caravan.

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5 hours ago, Roy Wieselquist said:

Andrej,

Yes, definitely, I think Dougherty had his right foot two risers down from the top of the steps.  And his left foot was one step up, one riser from the landing. I barely understand all your excellent math/science workings of the Darnell, Wiegman,etc. photos that catch our buddy Prayer Man.  (BTW, he's holding a coffee cup with both hands, it's that's simple, which gave him the excellent appellation, PM.)  JED was famous for walking around with a drink, unlike the working stiffs he kept an eye on for Bill Shelley; he was BS's second pair of eyes.

As I say, I barely understand how you bring out different aspects of the PM photos, and your geometric...what?  But I sure do get a lot out of the results.  You, C. Davidson, D. Josephs same thing.  I try to get a big-picture idea from looking at the different treatments you give...I guess I can't explain it.  Just, please, keep doing what you're doing.  I'm not a math/sci dummy, anything but.  But I AM a tech dummy, missed the boat on that.  "Too late in life" is my excuse.  Like, it's too hard to learn another language after a point.

JED, Oz, Eddie Piper, and Troy West are the only TSBD employees who weren't with others who could corroborate their stories.  All but Ozzie had their "jobs" for the presidential visit.  Per Bill Shelley's orders, probably from Ochus V. Campbell, thus from H. L. Hunt and the oil boys.  Dougherty, Piper, West had no idea they were helping the plot beforehand.  I bet they were scared witless after the fact.  But then their Bossmen assured them and told them, "Just don't say anything, and you'll be all right."

JED had the mind of a child.  There's a lot I can report about that.  When the War Con asked him if he'd gone out of the country while he was in the service, he joyously boasted, "Yes, Sir!" in good Army butt-kissing parlance.  "Where did you go?"  Answer: "I went to INDIANA!" he cried with the utmost pride.  It was all the COmmisioNerS could do to keep from busting out laughing.  Then again, his family (with whom he lived his entire life) planted Texas chauvinism in his stunted, hormonally-starved brain.  (His beard never came fully in, just like the crazy giant "Lewis" Powell who was in on the assassination of Abe Lincoln's administration.)  He actually believed Texas was a sovereign nation in chorus with those around him.

There's plenty more, but time prevents...

I tell you, Andrej, the Coup Logian research community is advancing at warp speed.  On nearly every front, but time prevents the exposition of secondary matters.

Roy:

Your data on Jack Dougherty's background and behaviour are very interesting. Did you find these details in a specific book or in different sources over time?

I am busy until Wednesday, however, will prepare the giant 6'4'' Prayer Man as soon as possible.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Chris Davidson positioning of Weigman is not quite correct.  Weigman said he jumped out of the car on Houston Street because the car was stopping.  He had to run around the corner.  The car stopped on Houston Street.  His vehicle, Camera Car #1, was not in the turn.  In the turn was the Mayor's Car as stated by Mrs. Earle Cabell.

Besides, Weigman filming of people may have been 16 seconds.  And, that really has nothing to do with when the Camera Cars were released to travel down Houston Street, make the turn as shown in their films, and proceed on down Elm. 

The timing problem is how long they were stopped on Houston Street with the rest of the caravan.

By the time Weigman's car gets to the designated lane marker, they are through the Elm St turn. (See previous plat plotting)

The side of Wieigman's car appears in his film footage as he is leaving it.

How else would someone have video footage from above the car they were riding in?

You'll have to prove he wasn't in Camera Car #1 and that is another persons video footage.

46688184052_fd53eb283b_o.jpg

 

 

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On 1/12/2019 at 6:44 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

Francois:

your comments look to me like a deja vu because the points mentioned in your post have been discussed back than in 2013, in the original thread "Oswald leaving the TSBD?" Have you spent sufficient time to familiarise yourself with Prayer Man research? Or, do you consider it a waste of time?

As John Butler pointed out, there were no tape or stenographic recordings made during the interrogations  (the Homicide had at least two female stenographers) and so we do not know what exactly Lee told the interrogators. Therefore, we are reconstructing pieces of what he may have said from snippets of data or post-hoc interrogation reports which were made from recollections. It is not a mistake of CT researchers that hard data about Oswald's whereabouts and statements are missing.

Lee Oswald said, while being moved across the corridor at the DPD headquarters, that he worked in the building and therefore he obviously was in the building (... during the shooting). He was not asked by that reporter where he was after the shooting. That period of time is covered by the Postal Inspector Holmes words, also conveyed to Detective Ed Hicks on Friday, November 22. I am quoting from Stan Dane's book: Prayer Man: Out of the darkness and into the light, which is an excellent compendium of Sean Murphy's (and other people's) research:

Quote from the book:

Holmes's statements (repeated by Detective Hicks) were published in London Free Press, November 22, 1963:

Holmes: Oswald wanted to see what the "commotion" was. An officer challenged him at the front entrance.

Hicks: Oswald wanted to see what the "excitement" was. An officer challenged him at the front entrance.

(Note that Fritz also recalled - using the exact same words as Hicks - that Oswald claimed to have seen the "excitement").

End quote.

Captain Fritz in his WC testimony also says that Oswald saw the "excitement", yet we know and possibly agree that Oswald did not watch the motorcade. The point is that he was on the first floor (after going first to the second floor to buy Coke) during the shooting but outside when the commotion caused by the shooting broke up.

Being on Lee Oswald's place, I would say as little as possible under the circumstances and especially in the absence of a trustworthy lawyer. The reason is that if you reveal all information to the prosecutor, that party may twist testimonies and even alter the evidence before the defendant's lawyer can oversee the testomonies and evidence. To be accused as a President assassin and be a communist with pro-Castro leaning and facing an attorney such as Henry Wade was a dangerous, almost fatal situation. You may have heard about how Wade brought innocent people to death by just playing with testimonies, witnesses and evidence. Please consult the book Into the Nightmare by Joseph McBride for more data about the fairness of criminal prosecution under Henry Wade.

Given the difficulty to find out what Lee said and the Depository witnesses claimed, I better stick to physical evidence. The photographs do not lie. The Darnell still is somewhat blurred but it reveals enough information to be reconstructed. The 3D project is a tool to revive the doorway scenes as they were right then when the motorcade was moving across Dealey Plaza.

To recap the physical aspects: Prayer Man was a man, a white Caucasian,he was 5'9'',  he had dark hair as Oswald had, his hairline matched that of Oswald, he was a Depository employee, he wore a worker type of shirt with sleeves rolled up to the elbow, he displayed a leg posture which Lee Oswald often showed on various occasions. Before, back than when Sean Murphy led the Prayer Man discussions, the exclusion logic was often employed: who could be Prayer Man if not Oswald? While even this logical argument makes a very very good sense, we are much further today: not only can the exclusion logic apply to Mrs. Stanton and Mrs. Sanders but we can claim simililarity of Prayer Man and Lee Oswald's figure. This can hardly occur just by chance. If I take any potential candidate from the Book Depository and model his/her figure and fit that figure as Prayer Man, it will not match.  Today, I took Mrs. Stanton's model and placed it to Prayer Man's location, and it clearly did not work. However, Oswald's figure does show an excellent match.

I hope my post at least gives you some food for though if not the understanding that there is much more to Prayer Man than you are willing to acknowledge.

overlay_pmlho.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Andrej,
Thank you for your long post.
I appreciate your willingness to truly think and debate.
I'm not availabe right now but I'll answer in two days' time.

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14 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thanks, Sandy, for pointing to Bill Shelley's DPD statement. We have two conflicting statements and I can only say that my analysis favors the version outlined in Bill Shelley's WC testimony. In Couch/Darnel, we see Carl Jones just approaching a lamp post on the island in ftont of the depository. Carl Jones was in the very front line of Depository observers, standing on the second step. Logically, he would be the first to get to the island, and a person standing on the top landing would be the last to come, or later than Carl Jones. Shelley firmly stays at his spot on the top landing even at end of Wiegman. This would be maybe up to 10 seconds after the last shot (I did not study the timeline of Wiegman in detail yet, so please feel free to correct me) while the doorway appears in Darnell in about 20 seconds. This was not a long time at all, and we should see Shelley just descending from steps or being on the sidewalk in front of the depository in Darnell.. And what about the lady in dark at the lower step  - if she were Gloria Calvery then Shelley could only be at steps because there was just no time for Shelley to bump into her on the island when she was at the steps at about 20 seconds and Shelley is still on steps at end of Wiegman.

Of course, maybe some new data may change this interpretation completely and I will be ready to change the figure on the top step from Shelley to that new person. However, where would this person come from - from the building? Who would this person be - the whereabouts of all Depository employees are known quite well.

 

Andrej,

First, I think you're making a big mistake by believing that Bill Shelley was wrong in his first day statement but being truthful in his WC testimony. First day testimonies are generally more accurate than later testimonies. And it is noteworthy that Shelley changed his story significantly for the WC. (We who have studied it know why he changed his story.)

Second, this collage proves that a motorcade spectator had enough time to get from way down on Elm Street to the TSBD steps in the period of time from the shooting to the Darnell frame you are analyzing:

  

calvery_talking_to_lovelady_zpsw70ublxy.

 

Note the woman in all white (in grayscale) who is wearing a scarf. I searched through dozens of photos and found that there was only one such woman in the area at the time of the shooting. We see her watching the motorcade in the Z-film inset, and then again at the steps near Lovelady in Darnell. That proves she had time to get there.

If that woman had enough time to move that distance, then Shelley certainly had the time to cross the road and then return.

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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On 1/12/2019 at 12:37 AM, David Von Pein said:

Oswald's facial expression at that moment is (and always will be) a subjective thing. CTers see shock and surprise. I see disgust and annoyance.

Who's to say who is right?

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/01/oswald-midnight-press-conference.html

Honestly? I believe that you can literally see all four: Shock, surprise, disgust and annoyance (or horror). I'm sure we can add a bit more in the mix when a hypothetical frame up of the century is at play.

May I also add, to the discussion/debate of PM (prayer man)...regardless of whether or not anyone believes its a "smudge" or "too faint to see/know", learning who was where at the time of the shooting would seem like basic police work. We cannot even begin to study in detail the Dealey Plaza event until people are accounted for in and from that Building. My point is, we have to learn who that faint figure is standing there regardless of what anyone believes or thinks about this case they simply must be accounted for...

Edited by B. A. Copeland

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1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Andrej,

First, I think you're making a big mistake by believing that Bill Shelley was wrong in his first day statement but being truthful in his WC testimony. First day testimonies are generally more accurate than later testimonies. And it is noteworthy that Shelley changed his story significantly for the WC. (We who have studied it know why he changed his story.)

Second, this collage proves that a motorcade spectator had enough time to get from way down on Elm Street to the TSBD steps in the period of time from the shooting to the Darnell frame you are analyzing:

  

calvery_talking_to_lovelady_zpsw70ublxy.

 

Note the woman in all white (in grayscale) who is wearing a scarf. I searched through dozens of photos and found that there was only one such woman in the area at the time of the shooting. We see her watching the motorcade in the Z-film inset, and then again at the steps near Lovelady in Darnell. That proves she had time to get there. 

If that woman had enough time to move that distance, then Shelley certainly had the time to cross the road and then return.

 

Sandy:

I do not dispute that the woman in dark with headscarf could reach the steps at the time when Darnell was shooting his film. We agree on that. I dispute the possibility that Bill Shelley would run from the top landing toward the isalnd right away after the last shot and would meet Gloria Calvery there (on the island) because he would not have time to meet her there. He did not start running right after the last shot - he stayed on his spot during the whole Wiegman which time (10 seconds?) needs to be subtracted from his Darnell time quota (15-20 seconds?). My analysis tells me that the person on the top landing is the same as the one we see in Altgens6 and Wiegman. I think that Shelley's WC testimony matches the visual evidence, not his DPD statement. That statement was very brief and maybe not too thorough. You certainly have a point that the first testimonies are the most accurate. Not in this case though, in my view.

Buell Wesley Frazier also confirmed that Shelley and Lovelady left the doorway after Gloria Calvery got to the steps. This is from his interview for the Sixth Floor Museum in 2013:

Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all?
Mr. Frazier: I did. This was all... I do not know exactly how many minutes later, but the lady I was standing next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady come by, a woman came by, and she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President". And so we looked bewildered. And I turned to Sarah: she said "She said somebody shot the President", I said I doubt that's what she said. She said that she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes, and, and I walked down to the first step, where Billy was standing down there, by myself so I looked around.

 

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3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Sandy:

I do not dispute that the woman in dark with headscarf could reach the steps at the time when Darnell was shooting his film. We agree on that. I dispute the possibility that Bill Shelley would run from the top landing toward the island right away after the last shot and would meet Gloria Calvery there (on the island) because he would not have time to meet her there.

 

Well of course Bill Shelley had time to meet Gloria Calvery at the concrete island, given that she had time to run to that position herself. The reason you say Shelley didn't have time is only because it is inconsistent with your understanding of the events.

Anyway, what you are disputing is precisely what Shelley said happened. And he said it just hours after it occurred.

 

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

He did not start running right after the last shot - he stayed on his spot during the whole Wiegman which time (10 seconds?) needs to be subtracted from his Darnell time quota (15-20 seconds?). My analysis tells me that the person on the top landing is the same as the one we see in Altgens6 and Wiegman. I think that Shelley's WC testimony matches the visual evidence, not his DPD statement. [Shelley's] statement was very brief and maybe not too thorough. You certainly have a point that the first testimonies are the most accurate. Not in this case though, in my view.

 

Yes, Shelley's statement is brief. But it is also very clear and specific on the point that he ran across the road and bumped into Gloria Calvery there at that concrete island. After which he returned to the building.

 

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Buell Wesley Frazier also confirmed that Shelley and Lovelady left the doorway after Gloria Calvery got to the steps. This is from his interview for the Sixth Floor Museum in 2013:

Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all?
Mr. Frazier: I did. This was all... I do not know exactly how many minutes later, but the lady I was standing next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady come by, a woman came by, and she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President". And so we looked bewildered. And I turned to Sarah: she said "She said somebody shot the President", I said I doubt that's what she said. She said that she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes, and, and I walked down to the first step, where Billy was standing down there, by myself so I looked around.

 

So let me get this straight. First you choose to believe Bill Shelley's LATER (and likely influenced) WC testimony over his first day statement. And then you back that up with a statement Buell Frazier made FIFTY YEARS LATER.

If instead we consider Frazier's 1964 WC testimony, we discover quite a different story:

Mr. FRAZIER - ....I heard two more of the same type of, you know, [backfire] sounds, and by that time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming, and naturally then I knew something was wrong, and so I come to the conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and I figured it was him.
Mr. BALL - You figured it was who?
Mr. FRAZIER - I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering

So back in 1964 Frazier was saying that he'd figured the president was shot due to the fact that people were running all over the place. But 50 years after that he says he wasn't so sure that the president had been shot even after the girl said he had. (!)

And in his testimony Frazier doesn't say a thing about when Shelley left the steps relative to when the girl arrived.

 

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23 hours ago, Roy Wieselquist said:

Linda Giovanna Zambanini has an excellent collection of JED photos titled, something like, "The Elusive Jack Dougherty, Elusive No More."  I'd link it here if I had the computer skills of a five-year old.

Anyone familiar with JED knows he was a huge man, about 6' 3" or 4" and heavy.  So okay, how does that square with the world's leading expert on PM photos, Andrej Stancak (AS), figuring PM is around Ozzie's height, about 5' 9"?  Huh, how?

Because of one small simple axiom in AS's figuring.  Andrej figures PM is effectively one step down on the stairs.  But I say he's effectively two steps, which takes another 7" off his apparent height compared to Wes Frazier.  So PM is a little taller than the tall, 6' 2" Frazier.  JED learned how to goldbrick and lean in the Army.  It has never been determined why he left early under strange circumstances.  Anyway, PM (JED) not only has his left (top) foot on the first step (not the landing), and his right foot on the second step, he is also leaning back against that solid block of masonry on both sides of the steps.  There are other pictures like the one above that show this, but again...no skills.

Also, one can see PM's size by how big his torso is compared to the tall WF.  PM's is bigger, and that's not only because his shirt is untucked.  PM is a big man.  JED was a big man, and he was Bill Shelley's straw boss/second in command/rat fink snitch keeping an eye on the working help.  "Beats workin'" -- JED's motto all his life.  He got there an hour earlier every day to check on the hourly as they arrived, maybe crowd the doorway a little and sniff the odd less-than-perfect slave who was suspected of early whiskey or reefer.

Ron Bulman well noted above how WF has been hot and cold willing to discuss the PM issue.  I believe you are right, Ron, that he is even now afraid for his beautiful family.  I thought it strange that WF cancelled at the last minute for the big Dallas conference this year.  I believe so many of the puzzle pieces are clarifying that he was told "Say nothing," especially about PM.

Back to JED.  Everyone who sees any of his testimony sees that it's all over the place.  And that was always with a handler, usually his DPD uncle right there!  Just one small piece of absurdia:  JED said he was by the fifth floor elevators when the shooting went down; he was actually there shortly BEFORE the shooting, keeping an eye on those elevators and the three hourly help diagonally across the floor in the SE corner.  BECAUSE JED did not see or hear Bonnie Ray and friends bat *ss to the west side of the floor and they did not see or hear him.  Because JED was not there.

There's a ton more about Dougherty, named Jack at birth not John.  Too much to go into here.  This is running on.  One more little gift for you goodly CLs:

JED was telling the simple truth when he said Ozzie didn't carry his "curtain rods" (gangster talk for rods that mean curtains to the recipient) INTO THE BUILDING.  Oz had the bossman's informer, JED, figured out the first day he worked there.  All the Wizard had to do was stick his package in one of the many stacks of pallets on the way to the loading dock.  Funny thing about a stack of pallets, you can only see what may be in a pallet if it's at eye level.  (I know because I worked at a huge warehouse and we hid all kinds of things in those pallets) I figure one of the Greatest Heroes of the 20th century, no, of all history, the Wizard of Ozzeewaldskovitchnikovskyev, stashed his curtain rod (MC 6.5 mm piece of barely good enough crap) low in one of those pallet piles, easy to retrieve later.

The thing that the Powers That Be hate more than anything else is fragging and any discussion or any knowledge of fragging.  In Vietnam, fragging was epidemic before it was over.  Congress never allowed even any DISCUSSION of the phenomenon.  Don't wanna give the grunts/slaves any ideas.

Hoover and many others at the top HAD to know the Wiz popped Johnny Con two good times, once through the back and once through the wrist.  And they didn't want that knowledge getting out.  Which was another bonus of keeping the WARren COmmissioN real simple, simple as the geocentric universe, so the deaf dumb blind mute of those among us can say the "tragedy" obeyed  Occam's Razor.

PM not being Ozzie, yet being JED, speaks volumes about the scope of the plot.  The elevators, phones, and electricity were controlled in TSBD, and JED was a low man on that totem pole.  Wes Frazier must have at least figured out some of the problems with the official whitewash.

 

Oh sure....

 

1/ Linda Giovanna Zambanini has not made a 100% ID on J.E.D. We at ROKC have dug into this a few years ago and could not come to a 100% ID either.

2/ Did you bother looking at his affidavits from Nov 22nd?

 

Affidavit-by-Jack-E.-Dougherty-1-1.jpg

Affidavit-by-Jack-E.-Dougherty-1-2.jpg

Jack-Edwin-Dougherty-FBI-Statement-Nov-2

Jack-Edwin-Dougherty-FBI-Statement-Nov-2

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I spent some time talking to Wes Frazier at the 2017? Lancer conference, and he told me he was working on a book with his son. When he did this, I told him he should not focus on his theories about what happened, but to instead focus on sharing as much information as he could about the TSBD, and its cast of characters. I then asked him about Dougherty, and whether he was truly "retarded", or merely autistic, or a weird egg. He said that Dougherty was plenty friendly and plenty smart, and was a huge guy. He said that he and Lovelady would, at times, try to wrestle with Dougherty, but that Dougherty could hold them off with one hand. Or something like that. I didn't take any notes. I figured the book would be coming soon enough. Let's hope that it's still in the works. 

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Sandy:

you see that there is a prevailing number of testimonies saying that Shelley and Lovelady met Gloria Calvery not on the concrete island but while they both stood in the doorway. The visual evidence I analyse says the same. While there can be a shadow of doubt due to Shelley's DPD statement, prevailing data including the likely timing say that these two men were on the steps when the lady with dark headscarf came to the steps and shouted about Kennedy being killed. 

There is a grain of uncertainty as there is this discrepancy in Shelley's statements, however, I hope you understand my reasons for placing Shelley and Lovelady on the steps in Darnell. Not mentioning the need to invent three-four persons (Shelley, Lovelady, Williams, Molina) who suddenly appeared in Darnell, 15-20 seconds after the shooting, had the same clothes which these people had in Altgens6 and Wiegman, were of the same body height, and occupied the spots which their "doubles" occupied in Altgens6 and Wiegman. 

Please, give one more look to Couch/Darnell. Carl Jones in quite a fast trott reaches the concrete island and maybe steps on the lamp post, and he stood in the front line of depository spectators. All other occupants standing behind him, e.g. like Shelley who was on the top step, would come later than Jones - but the lady in dark already is at the steps of the Depository.

 

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