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Derek Thibeault

Thursday at Ruth Paines House

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Derek:

Yes The Thin Blue Line was set in the Dallas Police Department.  Joe McBride refers to it often in his book on the Tippit case, Into the Nightmare.

 

Larry S:  As a result of the Innocence Project, we have learned that manufacturing of evidence is unfortunately common in our criminal justice system.   

If I recall correctly, that was the group Watkins worked with to uncover just how bad the DPD was.

BTW, if you read my book, the so called gun sack was an excellent example of this double decker of malfeasance.  As I argue, with help from Gil Jesus, the FBI found out what the DPD had done.  See, the TSBD did not order its paper and tape from a manufacturer but from a supplier.  Therefore, not every order was the same. It varied in thickness and hue. The FBI found this out when they tried to duplicate the so called gun sack themselves at the TSBD.  This is one reason for the two FBI reports, one saying that the sack exhibited the same "observable characteristics" as the paper in use at the Depository while the other said it was "not identical".

The FBI was using CYA tactics after they discovered the DPD perfidy. (DiEugenio, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, p. 204)

Edited by James DiEugenio

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On 1/16/2019 at 4:50 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Because he had an argument with Marina and wanted to straighten it out with her.

That is in the WCR.

Don't tell me that you believe what's in the Warren report...

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19 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Go Home Von Pein.

Just Go Home!

Bart,

Just keep in mind that DVP uses the Warren Commission Report as his source for many of his claims, even though the report is full of errors and disinformation.  

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2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Derek:

Yes The Thin Blue Line was set in the Dallas Police Department.  Joe McBride refers to it often in his book on the Tippit case, Into the Nightmare.

 

Larry S:  As a result of the Innocence Project, we have learned that manufacturing of evidence is unfortunately common in our criminal justice system.   

If I recall correctly, that was the group Watkins worked with to uncover just how bad the DPD was.

BTW, if you read my book, the so called gun sack was an excellent example of this double decker of malfeasance.  As I argue, with help from Gil Jesus, the FBI found out what the DPD had done.  See, the TSBD did not order its paper and tape from a manufacturer but from a supplier.  Therefore, not every order was the same. It varied in thickness and hue. The FBI found this out when they tried to duplicate the so called gun sack themselves at the TSBD.  This is one reason for the two FBI reports, one saying that the sack exhibited the same "observable characteristics" as the paper in use at the Depository while the other said it was "not identical".

The FBI was using CYA tactics after they discovered the DPD perfidy. (DiEugenio, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, p. 204)

Yes, I have been dying to read McBride's book but for some reason, it was fairly expensive. I think I will pick up Lisa's RFK book next. I had just finished Mary's Mosiac which was a good read and I know some of you here aren't fans, read the article at Kennedys and King about it. I had read that McBride's book is the best on the Tippett murder.

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On 1/16/2019 at 7:46 PM, James DiEugenio said:

 

As we later discovered, the DPD was the most compromised, corrupt, and rogue police department in any major city in America.  In fact, numerically speaking, Dallas outdid some states as far as framing innocent defendants.  They had it down to an art form. (DiEugenio, The JFK Assassination, pgs. 196-99)   If it had not been for the election of DA Craig Watkins, we might not have known just how bad it was.  And the cases that are exposed were mostly under the Wade/Fritz regime. Now considering the make up of the DPD, many Klansmen etc, and considering the statements of people like Alexander and Leavelle, there was no reason to suspect that technique would be suspended in this case.   And, as Pat Speer shows above,  there is ample evidence it was not.

Secondly, as I also discuss in my book, the antics of J. Edgar Hoover were also not exposed until too late. (ibid, pgs. 234-240)  Need I add that Hoover did not have any great love for the Kennedys?  He strongly suspected they would fire him in a second administration, which they were going to do. Therefore, as I show in my book--pages 240-70--the FBI was sometimes as bad as the DPD.  To me the outstanding example being the falsification of Ruby's polygraph, which not only the WC bought but many years later, Von Pein's heroine Jean Davison, bought into.  And this was years after the HSCA exposed it as a hoax.

The American system of justice relies upon the adversary system.  Whether one likes or not,  that is the case.  When the defendant has no one to represent him, then the DA knows that the rules of evidence and testimony will not apply.  This is how one gets rogue prosecutions and miscarriages of justice.

The one commissioner who was on to this early was Richard Russell.  That is why he did his own inquiry and stopped going to most of the executive session hearings.  He realized it was a dog and pony show. He did his own inquiry and came to different conclusions.  Dulles, McCloy, and Ford knew he would be a problem at the last meeting.  They made sure his objections did not get into the record.  There was a fake stenographer at the last meeting playing her crossword puzzle instead of taking notes.  When Weisberg told Russell what happened, that was the beginning of the commissioners jumping ship.  

This ended  with Boggs saying that Hoover lied about everything.  

Which he did.

 

 

 

68 year old DPD Captain John Will Fritz knew he had ( with Oswald ) the most important criminal suspect in not just his career and Dallas PD history, but probably in America's history and whose initial interrogations would be of monumental importance beyond anything he had ever been professionally involved with.

And under these hugely obvious circumstances Fritz still chose not to have a stenographer or tape recorder present during these?

How many other criminal suspects in Fritz's career were subjected to his interrogations without such recorded oversight and without an attorney present like Oswald?

Fritz had a career long reputation as an expert interrogator?

Under those conditions and techniques?

The following is a just one example of Fritz's expert interrogation skills:

Statements of Buell Wesley Frazier:

“I was interrogated and questioned for many, many hours,” Frazier said. “Interrogators would rotate.”

Dallas police Capt. Will Fritz, who was in charge of the homicide department, came into the room with a typed statement. He handed Frazier a pen and demanded he sign it. It was a confession. Frazier refused.

“This was ridiculous,” he said. “Captain Fritz got very red-faced, and he put up his hand to hit me and I put my arm up to block. I told him we’d have a hell of a fight and I would get some good licks in on him. Then he stormed out the door.”
 
The same Will Fritz who shouted to the press less than 24 hours after interrogating the never confessing Lee Oswald and without any truly thorough investigation..."THIS CASE IS CINCHED!" 
 
The number of people in the interrogation room and the tumultuous atmosphere throughout the third floor made it difficult for the interrogators to gain Oswald's confidence and to encourage him to be truthful. As Chief Curry has recognized in his testimony, "we were violating every principle of interrogation ... it was just against all principles of good interrogation practice."  
 
 
 
Will Fritz helped plan Oswald's transfer from the DPD jail to the County jail. A plan which resulted in Oswald's murder right inside the DPD building. A complete and total failure of security for the most important and threatened criminal suspect in DPD and again, probably America's history.
 
A security failure that was "the most damaging in American history" to our entire society regards the loss of public trust of their own government and that still persists 55 years later.
 
Oswald's transfer was a circus that was announced to the public starting the evening before.
So many had advised against an announced day time transfer, yet Fritz and Curry insisted upon this risky publicly announced scenario.
 
Will Fritz, and Curry and whoever else were the main planners of Oswald's transfer and responsible for his personal safety and security during this, should have been fired within 24 hours of that monstrous security breakdown and greatest truth revealing injustice and let down ( an Oswald trial ) to our society ever.
 
Will Fritz, who walked zombie like well ahead of Oswald and his only two security escorts Leavell and L.C.Graves (  two men versus the normal 3 to 6 security cordon ) and who seemed to react to the shooting in slow motion... should be depicted historically as a main suspect in any possible conspiracy in an Oswald killing set up.
 
I heard former Dallas FBI agent James Hosty say in a radio station interview promoting his 1997 book "Assignment Oswald " ... "we had three of them" ... (Warren Commission members) who he implied were working with his employer the FBI throughout their investigation tenures.
The same Christian/Catholic faith James Hosty who willingly held back from the WC during his sworn oath "Truth, whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help me God" testimony his knowledge of the ordered destruction of FBI evidence they held regards Lee Harvey Oswald.
 
When asked later why he kept this super important evidence destruction revelation from his WC questioners, Hosty defended this specific truth withholding part of his testimony with this excuse..."they never asked."
 
They never asked. 
Now there's an integrity bolstering statement in perhaps the most important truth seeking investigation in our history.
 
The WC "DID" ask Hosty to state  "THE TRUTH, FULL TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH" which clearly means revealing "everything" Hosty and the FBI knew about Lee Harvey Oswald.
Not just what "they" wanted or didn't want to share.
 
Can you imagine how Hosty telling the WC the full truth about this Lee Harvey Oswald FBI held and then destroyed information would have impacted their investigation and their final WC findings?
Just from this Hosty truth withholding revelation years later alone , how could anyone take the WC investigation seriously as a valid truth finding effort ?
 
 
 

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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After Thursday night, did he leave his wedding ring and a (large) contribution to the family savings fund.  And leave himself with what was it, less than twenty bucks after shooting JFK.  To escape the country on?  Knowing that afterwards the DPD, Texas Rangers, Highway Patrol and FBI would be hunting him.

Nah, he just went on Thursday to leave his ring and some money and grab his rifle.  Being a lone nut he didn't think about maybe needing his pistol to get away from the scene and left it at the rooming house in Dallas Thursday morning.  

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Ron: 

The wedding ring thing might not be kosher.

More to come later.

 

JIM D

 

BTW, that was  nice post by Joe eh?  Fritz was one heck of a subtle interrogator.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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On 1/16/2019 at 11:55 AM, Cory Santos said:

I think the question is odd.  To set him up he needs to go there?  Not true.  The better question is to ask them, if LHO acted alone,  when did he formulate his plan.  Ask them that instead.  Ask them for proof to support their position.  

https://kennedysandking.com/content/oswald-on-november-22-1963

I wrote a piece assuming Oswald must have had a plan....   not so much...

DJ

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4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

https://kennedysandking.com/content/oswald-on-november-22-1963

I wrote a piece assuming Oswald must have had a plan....   not so much...

DJ

Thanks great article. It all makes sense...a lot of it's common sense i.e. Oswald not knowing the parade route ahead of time so he could get a job at TSBD. Curious how the lone nut crew would debate your article. It sounds like it was random that Oswald went home that night and perhaps Frazier and his sister may have been used to show potential guilt.

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My $0.02....

I really don't think Lee Oswald thought---deep down---that he would actually have a chance to use his Mannlicher-Carcano on the President that day. Yes, he took his rifle to work with the hope in his mind of somehow being able to secrete himself somewhere within the Depository at the precise moment when Kennedy drove past the building. But he probably also realized as he was driving to work that morning with Buell Frazier that the odds of being able to successfully conceal himself from the view of everyone else in the building (i.e., being able to have an entire warehouse floor of the TSBD all to himself at just exactly the appropriate minutes before, during, and just after the President drove by the building) were very small odds indeed.

But, as Oswald's incredible luck would have it (and even though he picked a floor--the sixth--that had MORE than the usual number of employees working on it throughout the entire morning that day, due to the floor-laying project that was occurring on that floor), Lee had the good fortune of having the entire sixth floor all to himself at precisely the time he desperately needed to have it all to himself---between 12:20 and 12:31 PM.

It's always been my opinion that if Bonnie Ray Williams had decided to stay on the sixth floor, instead of moving down to the 5th floor at about 12:20, then JFK would not have been shot at all....because (IMO) Oswald wouldn't risk firing at the President if he knew for certain that somebody else was on that same sixth floor just a few feet away.

And if somehow he was able to pull off the shooting in total secrecy (which he was), I doubt if Lee thought he would live very long beyond 12:30. Hence, I don't think he cared too much about having a lot of money on him when he departed Ruth Paine's house on November 22.*

* Yes, I know that that last part about Lee thinking he wouldn't be long for this world if he shot the President is likely to be considered inconsistent with the portion of my theory which has Oswald not taking the risk of shooting if Bonnie Ray remained on the sixth floor. CTers can fire back with:

But, David, if he didn't think he'd get away alive, then why would he care if anyone else was up there with him to finger him for the crime?

Fair point (if someone wants to make it). But I think it's quite clear that Oswald did have a desire to continue living beyond 11/22/63. That fact is very clear to me when looking at Oswald's actions after 12:30 PM on November 22 --- e.g., fleeing the building within minutes of the assassination, taking a cab to get back to his roominghouse (a very out-of-the-ordinary mode of transportation for Oswald), arming himself with a pistol and at least 15 rounds of ammunition within 30 minutes of JFK being shot, and then committing a second murder a few minutes later when he encountered Officer Tippit.

Having a desire to survive the aftermath of the assassination, vs. thinking he will survive, are two different things entirely. I would guess that Lee Harvey Oswald was probably very surprised that he was afforded the ideal opportunity to shoot at President Kennedy from a totally vacant sixth floor of his workplace and still live to see another sunrise. IMHO. YMMV.

David Von Pein
May 6-7, 2018

More:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/01/lee-harvey-oswald's-decision-to-shoot-jfk

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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45 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

My $0.02....

I really don't think Lee Oswald thought---deep down---that he would actually have a chance to use his Mannlicher-Carcano on the President that day. Yes, he took his rifle to work with the hope in his mind of somehow being able to secrete himself somewhere within the Depository at the precise moment when Kennedy drove past the building. But he probably also realized as he was driving to work that morning with Buell Frazier that the odds of being able to successfully conceal himself from the view of everyone else in the building (i.e., being able to have an entire warehouse floor of the TSBD all to himself at just exactly the appropriate minutes before, during, and just after the President drove by the building) were very small odds indeed.

But, as Oswald's incredible luck would have it (and even though he picked a floor--the sixth--that had MORE than the usual number of employees working on it throughout the entire morning that day, due to the floor-laying project that was occurring on that floor), Lee had the good fortune of having the entire sixth floor all to himself at precisely the time he desperately needed to have it all to himself---between 12:20 and 12:31 PM.

It's always been my opinion that if Bonnie Ray Williams had decided to stay on the sixth floor, instead of moving down to the 5th floor at about 12:20, then JFK would not have been shot at all....because (IMO) Oswald wouldn't risk firing at the President if he knew for certain that somebody else was on that same sixth floor just a few feet away.

And if somehow he was able to pull off the shooting in total secrecy (which he was), I doubt if Lee thought he would live very long beyond 12:30. Hence, I don't think he cared too much about having a lot of money on him when he departed Ruth Paine's house on November 22.*

* Yes, I know that that last part about Lee thinking he wouldn't be long for this world if he shot the President is likely to be considered inconsistent with the portion of my theory which has Oswald not taking the risk of shooting if Bonnie Ray remained on the sixth floor. CTers can fire back with:

But, David, if he didn't think he'd get away alive, then why would he care if anyone else was up there with him to finger him for the crime?

Fair point (if someone wants to make it). But I think it's quite clear that Oswald did have a desire to continue living beyond 11/22/63. That fact is very clear to me when looking at Oswald's actions after 12:30 PM on November 22 --- e.g., fleeing the building within minutes of the assassination, taking a cab to get back to his roominghouse (a very out-of-the-ordinary mode of transportation for Oswald), arming himself with a pistol and at least 15 rounds of ammunition within 30 minutes of JFK being shot, and then committing a second murder a few minutes later when he encountered Officer Tippit.

Having a desire to survive the aftermath of the assassination, vs. thinking he will survive, are two different things entirely. I would guess that Lee Harvey Oswald was probably very surprised that he was afforded the ideal opportunity to shoot at President Kennedy from a totally vacant sixth floor of his workplace and still live to see another sunrise. IMHO. YMMV.

David Von Pein
May 6-7, 2018

More:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/01/lee-harvey-oswald's-decision-to-shoot-jfk

 

I hear your points.  However, assuming he did it, one problem is that he had to hide the weapon and bullets on the drive to work, walk into work with no one noticing tge weapon and/or bullets, go up several floors to work without anyone noticing the weapon and/or bullets, work for several hours and hope no one sees the gun and or bullets, or hear the bullets if he had them on him in a pocket, and finally hide the weapon and/or bullets while he was on the first and second floor which we know by testimony he was seen before12:30.  That is a lot of wishful thinking on his part.

Edited by Cory Santos

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On 1/16/2019 at 3:46 PM, James DiEugenio said:

The paper bag to the blanket.

 

You know, this makes me wonder what Oswald wrapped his rifle in when he went to practice shooting at "Lopfield".

"Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where. I don't know the name of the place where this took place. But I think it was somewhere out of town. It seems to me a place called Lopfield.
Mr. RANKIN. Would that be at the airport---Love Field?
Mrs. OSWALD. Love Field.
Mr. RANKIN. So you think he was practicing out in the open and not at a rifle range?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes."

 

If my calculations are right, "Lopfield" is a good six miles from where they were living on Neely St.

No blanket, huh?

 

Steve Thomas

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Questions for DVP.

David, you speculate about Oswald luckily picking the TXSBD sixth floor to do his deed. and how as luck again would have it, all the workers on this floor that morning ( including Bonnie Ray Williams ) left before JFK's motorcade arrived, giving Oswald ample time and privacy to build a wall of books behind him, walk to and retrieve his gun from it's hiding place, assemble it, load it ( unless it had been pre-loaded ) sight it's scope, set up an arm and rifle rest and with still enough minutes of time left before JFK's limo passing underneath, for him to be seen with the rifle in the window by 4 to 5 bystanders on the streets below.

That is a lot of ample left alone time, privacy and activity luck.

Lucky also that Oswald just happened to have found the time when he first arrived at the Depository building to immediately go up to the 6th floor to hide his rifle package so it was available to him minutes before JFK'S motorcade came by. Oswald obviously made this 6th floor package hiding visit and action when he first arrived because this was the only time he could have done this as no one who saw Oswald the rest of the morning reported seeing him carrying a brown paper wrapped package around with him when they did.

Oswald reportedly immediately took off on his own after arriving at the TSBD that day, leaving Buell Frazier behind and alone to do whatever he did to his car such as revving his engine to give his battery a little extra charge for later starting. Could it be that Oswald wanted to get up to that 6th floor quickly before punching in on the lower floors just minutes later? Leaving Frazier behind as soon as possible would have been imperative.

If Bonnie Ray or any other workers had stayed on the 6th floor during the motorcade drive by, would Oswald have left his "package" in it's hiding place? With the risky possibility that some other Depository worker moving boxes of books on the 6th floor that day or soon after, may have come across it?

When would he have retrieved this? Would he have found, again luckily, the time to sneak up to the 6th floor at the very end of the work day and rushed down via the elevator to the back ground floor exit and taken it back to his room via the Bus line?

Here's another lucky scenario for Oswald.

Just 10 to 12 feet "directly underneath Oswald" as he allegedly fired his loud rifle shots were three co-workers. Harold Norman, James Jarman Jr. and Bonnie Ray Williams.

Think about that ...just 10 to 12 feet away from the person doing the shooting!

Harold Norman testified under oath, that he obviously heard the shots ( who wouldn't 12 feet away? ) but also heard the clip re-loading sounds of the rifle and even the sounds of ejected shells hitting the floor above him.

The shock waves of the rifle shots were so strong they were displacing small bits of plaster from the ceiling above these three workers as they all testified that these plaster bits and dust had fallen into James Jarman Jr's hair!

Here is the extra luck I mention for Oswald.

For whatever reason ( shock, frozen by fear of confronting an armed wild man, fear of being considered suspects themselves) even though these three fellow Depository workers knew immediately that shots had been fired right above them and they knew by seeing what was unfolding right beneath them in the Plaza that there had been a shooting which was causing frantic running and yelling among several dozens of bystanders, they decided to stay put for several minutes all during this chaos?

If that were me, I would have immediately run down to the lower floors and reported what I saw and heard just minutes before during all the shooting right above me.

These three witnesses could have brought officers to the shooting location much sooner than they arrived. They maybe even could have seen Oswald running from the floor above them in their own retreat which would have ruined Oswald's story of being on the lower floors when the shooting occurred.

Lucky for whoever was firing just feet above depository workers Norman, Jarman and Williams that these three decided to stay put for several minutes in their 5th floor location right after the shooting.

 

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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