Thursday at Ruth Paines House

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, François Carlier said:

But I have one question : are there really people here you believe that Buell Frazier was a l-i-a-r ?
I mean, really ?
That can't be true !
I have heard a lot of ludicrous claims over the years, but come on, calling Buell Frazier a l-i-a-r is definitely going way over the top !!!

Certainly inconsistencies;

Mr. BALL - When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee? 
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean on the 22d? 
Mr. BALL - On the 22d, that day. 
Mr. FRAZIER - Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before noon

---------

Gary: How long after the assassination do you think this was?
Buell: Oh, probably five to ten minutes probably.
Gary: So, you remember seeing him briefly coming down Houston Street along the side of the building? 

Buell: (nodding) Yes.

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Certainly inconsistencies;

Mr. BALL - When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee? 
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean on the 22d? 
Mr. BALL - On the 22d, that day. 
Mr. FRAZIER - Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before noon

---------

Gary: How long after the assassination do you think this was?
Buell: Oh, probably five to ten minutes probably.
Gary: So, you remember seeing him briefly coming down Houston Street along the side of the building? 

Buell: (nodding) Yes.

Yes, you're right, Tony. There are some inconsistencies in Buell Frazier's statements over the years. Another one is: the location where Frazier said the shots came from. More about that here....http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com.

But one thing about which Buell Wesley Frazier has always been very consistent over the last 50+ years is when he talks about the paper bag (and the item that Lee Oswald told Frazier was contained within that paper bag---the "curtain rods").

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So when many Internet CTers nowadays claim that Frazier just MADE UP the story about Oswald carrying a long-ish bag on the morning of 11/22/63, those CTers aren't just highlighting an "inconsistency" in Frazier's testimony or statements. They are, instead, taking an element of Buell Frazier's account that has always remained constant and the CTers are just totally throwing it away----just as if the paper bag never existed at all. Poof! It's gone!

And when the CTers perform that "Poof" magic act of theirs with that brown paper bag, they are also (by necessity) accusing another person---Linnie Mae Randle---of lying through her teeth as well. So it's not just Buell Frazier who gets treated like a bald-faced l-i-a-r with respect to the "paper bag" topic----it's Linnie Mae too. And, in my opinion, that "double whammy" accusation against both Frazier and Randle is not only ridiculous, but it's totally unfair as well. Because every CTer on Earth who has made such a silly accusation has to know--deep down--that they can never prove such an accusation---even if their life depended on it.

 

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Re-Created Scenes In The Movie "Four Days In November"

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

Its ok when DVP calls someone a xxxx, right e.g. Shields and Dougherty.

He then tries to cover up that fact by saying, well, I just think Frazier's testimony supersedes them,  which is baloney.  Either Frazier is lying or Shields is about whether or not LHO was with Frazier parking the car.  Either Dougherty is lying or Frazier is about Oswald's package.

The reason he does this is that he does not want us to use his tactics on him.  That motive is pretty transparent. 

Shields and Dougherty had no reason to lie.  Frazier did.

I once put together a list of 57 people who had to be lying  for DVP to be right.  He did the same salsa dance.  

Talk about a double standard.

 

[David Von Pein]

DiEugenio, once more, doesn't evaluate things properly. (No surprise there, of course.)

I have never once said Shields or Dougherty were liars. And I certainly do not think either man was lying about anything.

Shields merely didn't notice Oswald walking some 50 feet ahead of Frazier. So, yes, he might have seen Frazier walking to the building ALONE (i.e., without Oswald being right THERE next to him), or Shields could even have seen Frazier IN HIS CAR ALL ALONE (without Oswald), because Oswald got out of the car ahead of Frazier and started walking toward the Depository with his package. So there WAS a period of time when Edward Shields could have seen Buell Frazier ALONE in his car in the TSBD parking lot and/or ALONE while walking toward the building.

And Jack Dougherty, as discussed before, wasn't even looking at Oswald at all when LHO came in the door. He admitted that fact. So that should be the end of that topic.

Memo to James DiEugenio....

A person can be WRONG without being a L-I-A-R.

Edited January 23, 2019 by David Von Pein

[François Carlier]

Inconsistencies ?
Of course.
Inconsistencies in testimony are common and should be expected, especially over the years.

[François Carlier]

Mister James DiEugenio,
Hello.
Listen. Critical thinking tells me that Buell Frazier was telling the truth when he talked about Lee Oswald having a long brown bag in his car that morning.
If you want to deny it, and claim that Frazier is a l-i-a-r you're wrong.
You're making a big mistake !
You can either learn about critical thinking (what it means, what it entails, what it requires) and reconsider your position (that's my advice to you) or you can call me an idiot and pretend that I know nothing about thinking critically.
It's up to you.
At any rate, if you want to stick to your guns (which, again, would be a mistake), then I would love to see you take the stand, at the next JFK-Lancer conference, and call Buell Frazier a l-i-a-r- in front of his face and in front of the audience.... If you dare, that is.
As for me, I will die saying that Buell Frazier was a decent man, as was Ruth Paine. And for that you'll probably call me an idiot for a long time...
How sad !

[James DiEugenio]

LOL, ROTF

This is what happens when the dynamic duo fall on their faces.

Anyone can read what Shields said.  When asked where his friend was Frazier replied , "I dropped him off at the building."

 

According to DVP, this is a lie.

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Let us take another example of the problems with Frazier.

Frazier told the HSCA that he always locked his car doors at night since his car was in a car port not a garage.

Well, how did Oswald get the package in the car that morning as Linnie said he did?

Frazier replied that that particular door was broken. Jack Moriarty, an experienced detective, replied, "You figure that one out OK?"

Davey and FC like to cover up the problems with the witnesses they like.  And they then say that everyone who contradicts them is a xxxx.

[Cory Santos]

In his entire comment, fc never once argued facts.  Not once.  It really was just how he felt.  Fc can you respond to the substance of what Jim argued?

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Davey and FC like to cover up the problems with the witnesses they like.  And they then say that everyone who contradicts them is a l-i-a-r.

That's a bald-faced lie right there. I've called very few people liars in this case. DiEugenio, however, has called more people liars than you can shake a stick at.

Anyone can go back through Jim's posts in just this thread alone and find where Jimmy accuses many different people of being liars. Let's just take an inventory of some of them....

Marina Oswald ["Marina was so full of crap." -- J. DiEugenio; 1/19/19]

Mary Bledsoe ["who may be worse than Marina." -- JD]

The DPD (via the alleged "planted shirt fibers") [LOL]

Howard Brennan

Buell Frazier

Linnie Mae Randle

Henry Wade

Will Fritz

Bill Shelley

Billy Lovelady

J. Edgar Hoover

Ruth Paine

Harold Norman

Charles Givens ["what a lying cuss this guy was." -- JD]

-------------

As we can see, DiEugenio doesn't give a damn how many people he has to smear and call rotten liars in order to set a double-murderer free. And Jim's proud as a peacock about it too. But in reality, it's simply TOO MUCH. It's actually laughable how many people Jimmy has to pretend were liars in order to make his precious Oswald turn into the "Patsy" Jimmy desires him to be. It's over-the-top nonsense----times ten!

Can anybody imagine THAT many people ACTUALLY being rotten evil liars within the confines of one single murder investigation? Couldn't happen in the "real" world in fifty lifetimes.

And, to stress this point again, my list above covers JUST this discussion thread here at EF, which only was started a mere seven days ago!

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by David Von Pein

[Derek Thibeault]

How about answering why Sheilds stated that Frazier told him he dropped LHO off? Was that a lie?

[Derek Thibeault]

How did Frazier fare when analyzed with the PSE  from the book The Assassination Tapes? I know Oswald fared well, as in he was not determined to be lying.

[François Carlier]

In 2014, the JFK-Lancer conference had, among its speakers, James DiEugenio and Buell Frazier.
I wonder if the former dared call the latter a l-i-a-r to his face ?
I don't think that Debra Conway would have been too pleased...

[James DiEugenio]

The above is a good example of Davey's technique on this.

He is saying that Shields is lying since what Shields testimony consists of is quoting Frazier as to dropping off Oswald at the TSBD prior to parking his car.

But he does not want to say he is calling him a xxxx. Because then that would take away his rhetorical/propaganda technique of saying, "You  guys say everyone is lying" as he just screamed above. 

Now, again, as properly quoted, Shields and Dougherty contradict Frazier.  They  have no reason to lie.  But Davey says they are. He then wants to cover up the fact that he is saying that.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

6 hours ago, Derek Thibeault said:

How about answering why Shields stated that Frazier told him he dropped LHO off? Was that a lie?

The only thing I can think of there is that Shields must have been thinking of some other day when such a thing happened, because we know Frazier did not drop off Oswald at the front door on 11/22. And the testimony of Jack Dougherty would tend to support that conclusion too, with Dougherty seeing Oswald come in the BACK door. Although, of course, Oswald could have easily walked to the back of the building, even if he had been dropped off at the front door. But does anyone know if an employee could enter through the FRONT door as early as 8:00 AM? I have no idea if that could normally happen or not at the TSBD. Was the front door unlocked at 8:00 AM? ~shrug~

Plus....

Why would Buell Frazier feel the need to lie about the precise location where Oswald got out of the car on Nov. 22? The story would be virtually the same either way---i.e., Oswald gets out of the car with package in hand and walks to the building. There's no substantial difference regardless of WHERE Oswald started his journey (whether it be the parking lot or the front door).

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by David Von Pein