Jump to content
The Education Forum
John Butler

Trying to Understand this Bronson Frame

Recommended Posts

Getting back to Mr. Butler’s questions related to this image and to show the type of misleading "evidence" he posts 

There are problems with this frame based on other photos, films, and witness statements.  I’ll start at the top of the scene.

Zapruders:  Zapruder and Sitzman are positioned where they are supposed be and doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Stemmons sign:  May be a little hard to identify but, it is where it is supposed to be.  The Umbrella Man and Latin Man may be out of position based on how you see Zapruder’s filming angle in the Zapruder film.

Hesters:  There is a real problem with identifying the Hesters as the people identified as the Hesters in this scene.  Jack White, long ago said this couple are the Hesters. He was wrong.  According to their testimony they were positioned on the south side of Elm Street and then after the shooting moved to the north side of Elm Street to the Arcade seeking shelter.

VOLUNTARY STATEMENT. Not Under Arrest Form No. 86
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
COUNTY OF DALLAS, TEXAS

Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 22nd day of November A.D. 1963 personally appeared Charles Hester, Address 2616 Keyhole, Irving Age 28 , Phone No. None

Deposes and says:

My wife, Beatrice and I were sitting on the grass on the slope on Elm Street where the park is located.


What Mr. B seems to forget is there is a BIG difference between unsigned FBI accounts which have been shown to be less than reliable in representing what witnesses actually said and SIGNED AFFIDAVITS…  the statements which the HESTER’s did not see or sign were created:  
By Special Agent DOYLE WILLIAMS and HENRY J. OLIVER Date Dictated 11/25/63     
as opposed to the signed affidavit of Nov 22nd of Charles HESTER.

Beatrice Hester said in an FBI statement of 11-25-63 said she was standing south side of Elm Street.

“…Mrs. HESTER advised she heard two loud noises which sounded like gunshots, and she saw president KENNEDY slump in the seat of the car he was riding in. Her husband then grabbed her and shoved her to the ground. Shortly thereafter they went across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter...”

Charles Hester said much the same as his wife in a FBI statement of 11-25-63 about being on the south side of Elm Street.

“…HESTER stated he saw the President slump in the seat of the car and that he heard two shots fired drom what appeared to be a building located on the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street. He Stated he and his wife were almost in a direct line of the fire and he immediately grabbed his wife and shoved her to the ground. He stated hethereafter immediately escorted his wife across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter... “

If this is true the people identified as Hesters are not the Hesters in this Bronson frame.  The situation worsens when you realize there is no one on the south side of Elm to identify as Hesters.  This is a sure sign of photo alteration and witness tampering.

Newmans and Chisms:  The next problem involves the identification of Bill and Gayle Newman and John and Faye Chism.  These two couples should be easy to identify in any photo or film.  The Newmans have two children with them and the Chisms have one.

That’s not the case in this Bronson frame.  The two couples that are supposedly the Newmans and the Chisms each have only one child.  Neither of the two women shown are holding a smaller child who would not be able to walk.  The people identified as Chisms has the woman holding a camera and taking a photo.  What happened to her camera and film?

Mannequin Row:  In the Zapruder film there are 19 people standing between the R L Thornton freeway sign and the Stemmons freeway sign.  Most of those 19 people are not shown in this Bronson frame.

 

Butler%20wrong%20about%20number%20of%20p

Umbrella Man and Latin Man:  The problem here may not be a problem depending on how one sees that these two people are shown in the Zapruder film.

In Bronson this pair seems to be behind the Stemmons sign.  But, this may simply be camera angle differences.

Presidential Limousine:  The limousine is approaching the position where the first shot is about to happen or has already happened to some which is pretty much the official story.  This scene nullifies the statement of Bill Newman on 11-22-63 and the Hesters as already discussed.

Bill Newman said on 11-22-63:

“…Today at about 12:45 pm I was standing in a group of people on Elm Street near the west end of the concrete standard when the President's car turned left off Houston Street onto Elm Street…”

Does Mr. B understand that in the BRONSON image, WEST is to the left, North at the top?

And,

“…Then the car sped away and everybody in that area had run upon [sic] top of that little mound. I thought the shot had come from the garden directly behind me, that it was on an elevation from where I was as I was right on the curb…”

By this time he was directly in front of us and I was looking directly at him when he was hit in the side of the head. – Bill Newman

Muchmore%20with%20Newman%20and%20Brehm%2

 

These two statements put Bill Newman at the corner of the TSBD where the “concrete standard” is.  The “garden” behind Newman is the Pergola or Arcade as called by others.

No sir they do not… If he has said the EAST END… maybe….

Recognizable People:  On the south side of Elm Street is a recognizable people such as Mary Moormna, Jean Hill, Toni Foster, the Brehms, and the Babushka Lady.

Unrecognized People:  There are 9 people I put question marks on hoping someone can identify who they are.

Other than you, why should we care who these people are; additionally, why don’t you try to ID them yourself?

The overall question is can this Bronson frame be considered real and trustworthy or altered and not trustworthy?  Is our interpretation of some the elements correct or not correct?

Yes Mr. B, the Bronson frame does not conflict with what we see in other frames...

In reality, the overall question remains, who do you think you're fooling here?….

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And finally, here they are standing up afterward

Hestersrising_zpscliyiaan.gif

 

and where they were when Zapruder tested his camera

 

Zapruder%20camera%20test%20of%20Hesters%

Edited by David Josephs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From David's post above re the Hesters

"Hesters:  There is a real problem with identifying the Hesters as the people identified as the Hesters in this scene.  Jack White, long ago said this couple are the Hesters. He was wrong.  According to their testimony they were positioned on the south side of Elm Street and then after the shooting moved to the north side of Elm Street to the Arcade seeking shelter."

 

David, just as a matter of interest, maybe the Hesters meant that they were on the south side of the original Elm St, which runs just in front of the TSBD. There is/was a grassy slope in between the old Elm St and the new freeway approach Elm St. The fact that they then moved to the north side of the street to the Arcade appears to make sense.

 

Was the Freeway approach  Elm Street known by that name in 1963?

 

p.s. I back completely the comments about David, by Mssrs Healey, Di Eugenio and Cross.

Edited by Ray Mitcham

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to offer again that in some back thread here, doubt was cast that the "Hester" couple who were seen around the west Pergola bench, and who were photographed on news film from a press car crouching on the center Pergola lawn, with Mr. Hester running to look out the Pergola's back windows, were actually the Hesters who later gave testimony.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

David, just as a matter of interest, maybe the Hesters meant that they were on the south side of the original Elm St, which runs just in front of the TSBD. There is/was a grassy slope in between the old Elm St and the new freeway approach Elm St. The fact that they then moved to the north side of the street to the Arcade appears to make sense.

That makes sense Ray....

From Zapruder we see exactly where they were on the pergola to the WEST of the TSBD and yes, just south of Old Elm.

yep... they are directly south of an "Elm" street... and did indeed move north into the Pergola/Arcade

Thanks!

fbi%20three%20shots%20and%20CE879%20with

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Just to offer again that in some back thread here, doubt was cast that the "Hester" couple who were seen around the west Pergola bench, and who were photographed on news film from a press car crouching on the center Pergola lawn, with Mr. Hester running to look out the Pergola's back windows, were actually the Hesters who later gave testimony.

I believe those two people, even though they were close witnesses to the shooting, were not called before the WC. Sitzman, who was filmed in their company, was not called either. 

I am yet to see any basis in fact that those two people were actually the "Hesters". The only indications I've seen are circumstantial.

I agree that the "Hester" statements are likely to represent those two people filmed by both Zapruder and Weigman.

All I've ever heard is, it's obvious they are, or who else could they be, or who do you think they are, etc.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

I am yet to see any basis in fact that those two people were actually the "Hesters". The only indications I've seen are circumstantial.

 

Yeah, really too bad everyone wasn't wearing a name tag for you Tony.... 

you could try SEARCHING for an answer instead of just declaring you couldn't find anything and there's nothing to be found....

:cheers

 

How about these statements from those involved corroborating each other?  or is this just circumstantial to you?

 

 

John Wiseman, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.  Date Nov 23, 1963

I was standing in front of the Sheriff's Office at 505 Main Street, Dallas when the President passed and the car went around the corner and a few more cars had passed when I heard a shot and I knew something had happened. I ran at once to the corner of Houston and Main Street and out into the street when the second and third shots ran out. I ran on across Houston Street, then across the park to where a policeman was having trouble with his motorcycle and I saw a man laying on the grass. This man laying on the grass said the shots came from the building and he was pointing to the old Sexton Building.

 

ALLAN SWEATT, Chief Criminal Deputy, Dallas County Sheriff's Office.  Date: Nov 23, 1963

At approximately 12:30 PM, Friday, November 22, 1963, I was standing with a group of Deputy Sheriff's about 30 feat east of the corner of Houston and Main Street on Main Street.

The president's caravan had just passed and about a minute or 2 I heard a shot and about 7 seconds later another shot and approximately 2 or 3 seconds later a third shot which sounded to me like a rifle and coming from the vicinity of Elm and Houston street. Several officers and myself from the Sheriff's department ran around the corner and towards Elm Street and Houston and were told that someone had shot at the President. A man by the name of "Hester" told Deputy John Wiseman that the shots had come from the old Sexton building.

 

20 hours ago, David Josephs said:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=871&tab=page

These are the FBI reports from the HESTER's... CE1429

You see anywhere the HESTERS themselves were actually interviewed on the 24th or 25th after Charles had already given his affidavit on the 22nd?

1292-001.gif

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

 

Yeah, really too bad everyone wasn't wearing a name tag for you Tony.... 

you could try SEARCHING for an answer instead of just declaring you couldn't find anything and there's nothing to be found....

:cheers

Done those searches years ago, read the topics. You haven't provided anything I haven't seen before.

If anyone has any photos of either of them outside of the assassination sphere, please let me know. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are correct, sirs - the Hesters did not appear before the WC.  However - for that full Hester feeling, identity questions and government involvement and all - see the extensive discussion in the back threads.

Here is the McAdams site listing of the Hesters' statements.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm

Hester, Charles 11/22/63 Affidavit, 11/25/63 FBI report Witness at assassination scene.
Hester, Mrs. Charles November 25, 1963, FBI report

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mrs. CHARLES HESTER, 2619 Keyhole Street, Irving, Texas, advised that sometime around 12:30 p.m., on November 22, 1963, she and her husband were standing along the street at a place immediately preceding the underpass on Elm Street, where President KENNEDY was shot. Mrs. HESTER advised she heard two loud noises which sounded like gunshots, and she saw president KENNEDY slump in the seat of the car he was riding in. Her husband then grabbed her and shoved her to the ground. Shortly thereafter they went across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter. She stated that she believes she and her husband actually had been in the direct line of fire. She did not see anyone with a gun when the shots were fired and stated she could not furnish any information as to exactly where the shots came from. After the President's car had pulled away from the scene. she and her husband proceeded to their car and left the scene as she was very upset.  -- FBI Report 11/25/1963

 

I find, in recorded eyewitness testimony as well as in my work experience, that not only is witness and memory unreliable, but half the struggle for accuracy is that people are not equipped to describe things well, in proper vocabulary and complete context.  Would this description fly in modern investigation?  (I'm afraid so): "she and her husband were standing along the street at a place immediately preceding the underpass on Elm Street [...] Shortly thereafter they went across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter." 

Note that in the FBI versions of both Hesters' statement, the Hesters are placed on the south side of Elm before the shooting.  So it is also with the descriptive powers of other DP witnesses and law enforcement.

Edited by David Andrews

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

You are correct, sirs - the Hesters did not appear before the WC.

Harry Holmes was interested in those two people, he watched them through binoculars as they sat on the bench, (pre-assassination or simultaneous with) then took note of same two as they were lying on the ground (post-assassination)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Done those searches years ago, read the topics. You haven't provided anything I haven't seen before.

 

the thing is - you haven't offered any alternatives.... 
only criticism for those of us showing you that the films, photos and statements prove it was them to the exclusion of anyone else..

 

Your approach to this question reminds me of something... prove I'm wrong about what you're doing.

COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum &
Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation

#9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
#19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

demand impossible proofs.

Yes, I have asked if anyone can provide photos of those two people before or after the assassination time frame. 

My question to you is how do you know that they can't be provided?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Yes, I have asked if anyone can provide photos of those two people before or after the assassination time frame. 

My question to you is how do you know that they can't be provided?

 

Now I know you're not for real....  move along sir, you've given yourself away...

:pop

#9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
#19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×