Trying to Understand this Bronson Frame

[David G. Healy]

3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Two parents, two kids both dressed in red....

Chris is not saying the are the same people....  so what’s the fascination Dave?

btw, nice to see you on here again...

you are right, David. I needed to check my DP eye witness position chart. No real fascination,  just advancing age telling me there was something there that shouldn't be, aka someone out of position (that wasn't).

[Lewis Reynolds]

These havn't been colourized:

https://ibb.co/WkFYb6j

You can generally tell if something has been colourised, like this:

[John Butler]

Thanks Lewis,

That is a neat WWI photo.  At least I think it is from the British soldier's sword bayonet.  Whoever colorized the photo did a good job.  The colors are about right for the distance if you were making a painting of the scene.

Could you give me the source for the Newmans photo or film frame you posted. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by John Butler

[David Andrews]

At the right edge of the first picture in Lewis' post above is the "Crouching Woman" in sunglasses, whose full-on picture (a still from a TV news film) has become one of the iconic panic shots of DP.  She was a grad student who later gave a brief account to the newspapers, I recall.  Where is this woman in the Bronson frame that starts this thread?  Is this woman with the "Hesters" in earlier photos?

***

Also, in the back threads, much was written about the Hesters and their connections to government work in film processing.  However, at some point later a thread appeared questioning whether the people photographed really were the "Hesters."

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by David Andrews

[Lewis Reynolds]

34 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Thanks Lewis,

That is a neat WWI photo.  At least I think it is from the British soldier's sword bayonet.  Whoever colorized the photo did a good job.  The colors are about right for the distance if you were making a painting of the scene.

Could you give me the source for the Newmans photo or film frame you posted. 

Yeah its a great WW1 photo. It does indeed look like the Germans are prisoners.

With regards to the film frame, I grabbed it from earlier on in the thread (page 3 - Chris Davidson).

The photo I found on the net, says taken by Cecil Stoughton. Appears on Mary Ferrell:

https://www.maryferrell.org/photos.html?set=JFKL-DEALEY

[Lewis Reynolds]

29 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

At the right edge of the first picture in Lewis' post above is the "Crouching Woman" in sunglasses, whose full-on picture (a still from a TV news film) has become one of the iconic panic shots of DP.  She was a grad student who later gave a brief account to the newspapers, I recall.  Where is this woman in the Bronson frame that starts this thread?  Is this woman with the "Hesters" in earlier photos?

***

Also, in the back threads, much was written about the Hesters and their connections to government work in film processing.  However, at some point later a thread appeared questioning whether the people photographed really were the "Hesters."

 

There are two woman, one either side of the lampost near the Newmans in the Bronson frame. Shes very similarly dressed to either of these two.

[Lewis Reynolds]

Heres a few more pics of this woman:

[David Andrews]

Anybody - is there a good, clear still of Crouching Woman that's not from the TV film, or if from the film, doesn't have the film company logo on it?  I'm thinking of the classic shot where she's looking right into the lens.  THANKS

Edited January 28, 2019 by David Andrews

[David Josephs]

28 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

Anybody - is there a good, clear still of Crouching Woman that's not from the TV film, or if from the film, doesn't have the film company logo on it?  I'm thinking of the classic shot where she's looking right into the lens.  THANKS

[John Butler]

I believe most folks would name her Doris Mumford.  I think Mumford's daughter identified her.  For some reason that name escapes me if I don't think of it for a long time.  If the photographers have posed the Newmans in the grass then she has been posed also. 

I believe the south side photos were take by Dick Bothun.

The two photos posted should have Weigman in them.  It made simply be a matter of Wiegman running into the street towards the Camera Cars.

[John Butler]

David Andrews,

As far as I can determine Doris Mumford is not in the Bronson frame.  The Bronson frame is right at the time of the assassination's first shot (according to the official story) or just seconds away.

When Doris Mumford appears it's about a minute or more later.  Where she comes from I don't have a clue.  And, that is a good question which I think you are asking.  Where is she in  earlier photos than the ones shown such as Betzner and Willis 5.  Betzner shows what may be a skirt and woman's leg where the "Hesters" should be and Willis shows the alleged "Hesters".  I don't think she can be identified as one of the Mannequin Row women.

[Ken Rheberg]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

David Andrews,

As far as I can determine Doris Mumford is not in the Bronson frame.  The Bronson frame is right at the time of the assassination's first shot (according to the official story) or just seconds away.

When Doris Mumford appears it's about a minute or more later.  Where she comes from I don't have a clue.  And, that is a good question which I think you are asking.  Where is she in  earlier photos than the ones shown such as Betzner and Willis 5.  Betzner shows what may be a skirt and woman's leg where the "Hesters" should be and Willis shows the alleged "Hesters".  I don't think she can be identified as one of the Mannequin Row women.

 

After reviewing all of the relevant films and photos as well as statements from witnesses, I feel as confident as I've ever been that the two women, as seen in the Bronson photo, standing by the lamppost, are journalism student Cheryl McKinnon to our left of the post and 36-year-old Doris Mumford to our right of it. Immediately after the shots, the older Mumford dropped down to the grass near the Newmans.  At the same time McKinnon bolted up Elm -- as seen in a frame of the Wiegman film -- and, in my opinion, was the woman who approached both officers Welcome Barnett and Joe Marshall Smith, running, in hysterics, with a report that someone was shooting from the bushes.

Ken

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Ken Rheberg

[John Butler]

Thanks Ken,

That is very reasonable.  Those two women will be listed as No. 1?.  That fills in that spot and the two women Cheryl McKinnon and Doris Mumford are discussed from time to time. 

Once again I think that is a very reasonable suggestion for 1? and I don't think many will refute it.  The Bell film shows Doris Mumford with the Newmans on the grass very early on at 54 seconds into the film.  The presidential limousine goes under the Triple Underpass at about 49 seconds.  It is in front of the TSBD at 43 seconds.  That's not a lot of time for some other individual that someones says is Doris Mumford to show up.

I think your confidence is justified.

 

[David Andrews]

Thanks David J, and thanks all.  Just to say again that the people around the Hesters (or "Hesters"), and the Hesters themselves, saw a lot of discussion in the back threads, which may be useful to this thread.  Mea culpa if I confused McKinnon with Mumford - it's been a while.

 

[John Butler]

The Bell film is about 3 minutes in length.  The first 38 or so seconds are spent on Main and Houston Streets before the turn onto Elm Street.  At 42 seconds the presidential limousine is in front of the TSBD.  And, here is the screwy part.  The film skips to the Triple Underpass at 43 seconds.  Obviously, some portion of the film has been skipped by some process.  More than likely someone edited out the time spent going from the TSBD to the Triple Underpass.

At 43 seconds the presidential limousine is very close to the Triple Underpass.  And, here is another odd part.  Really odd.  The limousine takes 6 seconds to move into the shadows under the railroad bridge from a very short distance.   This is the first clear frame at 44 seconds.

It takes another 5 seconds to move into the shadows.  Very odd.

After that the camera pans back to the Grassy Knoll area.  We see the Babushka Lady, Mary Moorman, Jean Hill, and the Brehms at 53 seconds.

Next are the Newmans with a Dallas Policeman.  Zapruder and Sitzman are still in the scene.  The policeman is not a motorbike cop and does not show up in other films and photos.  This policeman should have been in Zapruder, the Bronson frame, and Willis 5. 

At 54 seconds we see the Newmans in the grass and there is also Doris Mumford there.  There is more time here than the time between 43 and 53 seconds.  There is the additional time of the missing section of the film in the Bell Gap.  The assassination occurs somewhere in the missing film between 42 and 43 seconds of the film.  There is now a Bell Gap to go with the Zapruder Gap.

At 59 seconds Altgens enters the scene and is seen standing by the Newmans.  He crosses the street a few seconds after taking Altgens 6.  The street were clear because the Mayor’s Car and the National Press Pool Car were being held in the intersection.  How long were they held?

The National Press Pool Car and the Mayor’s car are seen at 1:11 seconds in the Bell film at the steps of the Grassy Knoll.  This means they could have been held at the intersection for 25 + seconds, leaving this kind of timing for the motorcade.

1^st segment:  Presidential Limousine, Security Vehicle, Vice Presidents Car, and the Vice Presidents Securtiy Car.  This is an unknown length of time between 42 and 43 seconds in the Bell Gap.  If one was to guess it would be in excess of 10 seconds.

2^nd segment:  Mayor’s Car and the National Press Pool Car.  About 25 to 29 + seconds.

3^rd segment:   Camera Cars 1, 2, and 3.  About 38 seconds less 9 seconds as the time difference between Wiegman’s run into the Plaza and the Camera Cars release as demonstrated by the Wiegman film and the Couch film.  This would put Marion Bakers run for the TSBD at minimum of about 1 minute after he heard shooting.  10 + 25 + 31 seconds.

This may help a little with the timing issue between Wiegman and Couch and some of the events and people seen and not seen in the Bronson frame and other related media.