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Tony Krome

Backyard Photo Observation

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How frustrating it is to read about something so explosive as what this Dallas based commercial photographic processor person Robert Hester and his wife have supposedly claimed, and yet never knowing, for sure, whether it is true or not.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

How frustrating it is to read about something so explosive as what this Dallas based commercial photographic processor person Robert Hester and his wife have supposedly claimed, and yet never knowing, for sure, whether it is true or not.

If true, it places the FBI in possession of the BYPs on Friday just as in Michael Paine's testimony

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6 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Add a few more witnesses to that list;

To further cloud this issue, two Dallas commercial photographic processors have told this author they saw copies of the backyard photo the night of the assassination — more than twelve hours before they were reported found in the Paine garage. 

Robert Hester, who was called from home on November 22, 1963, to help process assassination-related photographs for the FBI and Dallas Police at National Photo, said he saw an FBI agent with a color transparency of one of these pictures and that one of the backyard photos he processed showed no figure in the picture. Hester's claim was corroborated by his wife, Patricia, who also helped process film on the day of the assassination. (Crossfire, pp. 451-452)

 

Isn't this interesting.  If what Robert Hester and wife says is true this helps narrow down the timing of when the BYPs were made.  Remember, in this thread is discussed the two times the BYPs could be made are at the spring and fall equinoxes.  Chris Bristow has suggested the photos could have been made in a period of about 5 days before or after the equinoxes.

If these photos were made in Sept. then they were being held to see who would become the Patsy.  Holding these photo negatives from March doesn't seem to be as sensible. 

If the BYPs were developed on the night of the assassination then the planners hadn't really decided on a firm candidate for the Patsy.  Or, barring unfortunate circumstances, the Patsy had been decided but, not confirmed.  And, that would not happen until the day of the assassination.  The Patsy Pool so to speak was probably the floor laying crew on the 6th floor.  Particularly, Bill Shelley. there is a photo of Shelley staring down the double barrels of a shotgun help by a Dallas policemen.  My take on that photo is that is an unsubtle way of saying watch what you say, Bill.  LHO, Chauncey Holt, and Bill Shelley are in a photo together on the street in New Orleans.  Some argue Shelley is not the person there.  But, I believe it is Shelley in the photo.  I call this photo the 3 Patsy photo.

Fritz must have just received a copy to confront Oswald with on Friday, the 22nd.  They also needed copies to take to the Paynes for discovery on Saturday.  This type of reasoning is totally different than the general accepted story of Oswald and Marina taking pictures in March, 1963.

Is it true?  Its beginning to look like it.

  

 

Edited by John Butler

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I am less eager to jump on the Hester’s story, as I believe it was not told  until the eighties - twenty years or more after the events. A color transparency is mentioned no where else in the record and based on the known existing materials, would have been difficult to create in short order. And while I can understand the need for help with a probable flood of unexposed photos, it is hard to imagine unvetted civilians would have been allowed to come into contact with potentially sensitive information if there was a “BYP operation” that evening.

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Michael Connelly’s detective Harry Bosch could usually find the answer to the crime by consulting the “Murder Book”, the record of the investigation.  One of the ways to tease that answer from the Murder Book was to make a timeline. 

Here’s my attempt at trying to make a timeline of the Backyard Photos.

March 31, 1963:  This is supposedly the date that Marina Oswald photographed Lee Harvey Oswald and the resultant photos became the Backyard Photos.

This is now disputed by the idea that the BYPs could have been taken in Sep., 1963 at or around the equinox so that shadows would duplicate conditions in March of 63 to match other evidence such as the gun and rifle purchase.

September 22, 1963: Or, close to the equinox date:  Possible date for the filming of the BYPs by folks other than the Oswalds.

October, 1963:  Roscoe White joins the Dallas Police Force with the crime lab / identification bureau as a photographer.

November 22, 1963:  The day of the assassination of President Kennedy.

November 22, 1963:  This is the day that Robert Hester and wife say they saw and developed photos that were the BYPs.  There was also a photo showing the back yard at 214 Neeley Street without figures in it.  This photo has never surfaced.  The Hesters claimed the FBI was aware of these photos and had them in their possession.

November 22, 1963:  Lee Harvey Oswald is shown a BYP by Captain Fritz of the Dallas force.  LHO said it was not him and it was faked which he would be able to prove later.  If he wasn’t under a death sentence that would have put him there.

November 22, 1963:  The night of the assassination Marguerite Oswald is shown a BYP of LHO holding a rifle over his head by Marina Oswald.  The photo is burned and the ashes are flushed.

November 23, 1963:  The BYPs are found at the home of Michael and Ruth Payne a day after Capt. Fritz showed a BYP to Oswald.

November 29, 1963:  This is the earliest time the second set could be made.  The second set of BYPs are allegedly made at this time.  The scene of the backyard and other photos do not match the first set in shadows suggesting different years, different seasons, and definitely a different time of day.  The shrub growth over time is different in size suggesting a time longer than months.

November 29, 1963:  Warren Commission established.

December 6, 1963:  Life Magazine publishes the Back Yard Photo of Lee Harvey Oswald.

December 8, 1963- Feb. 24, 1964:  Robert Oswald said he obtained the Imperial Reflex camera at the Payne’s home on Dec. 8, 1963,  This was after the authorities searched the home.  Later he turned this into the authorities on Feb. 24, 1964.

June, 1964:  Marina Oswald identifies the Imperial Reflex camera as Lee's and as the one she used.

September 24, 1964:  Warren Commission Report presented to President Johnson.

1967:  George de Mohrenchildt has a BYP photo in his possessions, a copy of 133-A.

March 31, 1967:  This reproduction photo was made by CBS in March of 1967.  The shadows in this 1967 photo are a fair match for the shadows in the 1963 BYPs.  However, the foliage of the shrubs in the two do not match suggesting the two photos were taken at different times of the year.  This could only be accomplished by filming at the equinoxes or about a week close to the equinox.  These are the two times of the year when lighting conditions match.

September, 1976:  House Select Committee on Assassinations formed.

1976:  At the time of the HSCA hearings Roscoe White’s wife Geneva, later Mrs. Dees, had a photo 133-C she gave to the committee.  She said it came from Roscoe and would be valuable in the future.

1977: The second set of BYPs surface with the Ghost Photo being made public.  Mary La Fontaine said there were two photos of just the background of 214 Neeley Streets available and the backgrounds did not match. 

1978:  The HSCA declares the BYPs as authentic and not fake.

Can you add to this list or correct inaccurate statements?

Edited by John Butler

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1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Can you add to this list or correct inaccurate statements?

If the BYP was indeed created in the Spring of 1963, there is no credible reason to assign a date (such as March 31) other than Marina's contradictory stories and/or Michael Paine's later recollections of seeing a BYP on a particular evening. They could have been created anytime in late March/April - or even later as that house sat empty through the summer.

Oswald was not shown a BYP until after the photos were "found" on the afternoon of Nov 23. Previously, Oswald was questioned about the Neeley St address based on its identification via the photo the DPD had, but the physical photo was not revealed to him.

Robert Oswald's alleged discovery of the Imperial Reflex camera occurred in February 1964, not December 1963.

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4 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

I am less eager to jump on the Hester’s story, as I believe it was not told  until the eighties - twenty years or more after the events. 

If the whole story, as related to Marrs, is hogwash, one can still glean information from disinformation.

1. Did the FBI ever question these allegations that were made 20 years or so later?

2. Since the FBI was named in the story, which party is shifting blame?

3. Let's say its totally concocted, no problem, be wary of information with the use of certain surnames .....

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5 hours ago, John Butler said:

If the BYPs were developed on the night of the assassination then the planners hadn't really decided on a firm candidate for the Patsy.  Or, barring unfortunate circumstances, the Patsy had been decided but, not confirmed.  And, that would not happen until the day of the assassination. 

Remember what Jack White said;

They had with them a backyard photo with no person in it. They had a single ID-type photograph of the person we know as Lee Harvey Oswald. They had a couple of Communist newspapers. They had a pistol and they had a rifle. And just suppose that I am this art department that they have come to, I can visualize some-one saying to me "Here are these articles. I want them put together into a composite photograph. The person's face you have here, I want him to be holding the guns and the newspapers and then I want the figure superimposed on this background."

Lets say the final touches (post-assassination) to an incriminating composite photo were the ingredients in bold above. The pistol was related to Tippit. Was it 100% certain prior to the assassination that Tippit was to be shot with a pistol? The rifle .... we have a smorgasbord. The face .... one can look elsewhere other than the TSBD. Think along the lines of trajectory.

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Jeff,

It seems Robert Oswald is supposed to have picked up the camera on Dec. 8, 1963.  And, given it to the FBI on Feb. 24, 1964.

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19 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Quick question ... when did the Bobby Brown / Backyard re-enactment Ghost photos etc first surface?

 

Says here Fritz agreed to hand the photos over to the WC;

I assume the photo with the Oswald silhouette cutout was not part of the package, otherwise the WC would have been aware of a third Oswald pose, correct?

Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever inspect these premises on Neely Street? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. With the Secret Service. We went over there and we searched that apartment thoroughly. It was vacant. The man came over that owned it, opened the house for us, we searched it thoroughly and went through the yard and made some pictures in the backyard exactly like that with another man, of course, holding the papers. 
Mr. McCLOY. Are the pictures in the record? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; we have them in the record, the ones we made over there. I suppose you have them here. 
Mr. McCLOY. Do we have the pictures? 
Mr. BALL. I don't believe we have any pictures that you made. 
Mr. FRITZ. Of the one we made over in the backyard. 
Mr. McCLOY. I think it is important we get those because of the charge this picture was doctored. Have a picture of the premises which these pictures were taken. 
Mr. BALL. Maybe Lieutenant Day has them. 
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; those pictures were made with--we have them, I am sure of that, our men made the pictures. I believe we have them right here. Maybe we didn't bring them, but we have them. 
Mr. BALL. Could you send them to us? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; Lieutenant Day may have some with him. His men have them. 

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1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Remember what Jack White said;

They had with them a backyard photo with no person in it. They had a single ID-type photograph of the person we know as Lee Harvey Oswald. They had a couple of Communist newspapers. They had a pistol and they had a rifle. And just suppose that I am this art department that they have come to, I can visualize some-one saying to me "Here are these articles. I want them put together into a composite photograph. The person's face you have here, I want him to be holding the guns and the newspapers and then I want the figure superimposed on this background."

Lets say the final touches (post-assassination) to an incriminating composite photo were the ingredients in bold above. The pistol was related to Tippit. Was it 100% certain prior to the assassination that Tippit was to be shot with a pistol? The rifle .... we have a smorgasbord. The face .... one can look elsewhere other than the TSBD. Think along the lines of trajectory.

I don't think anyone professional was involved with the BYPs.  Certainly, no one who did that for a living.  Jack has listed 15 things wrong with the photos.  I listed one.  You have listed another.  There are too many errors in the photos for it to be a professional job.  The CBS reproduction has to be a professional job to replicate the photo and the mistakes involved. 

Who else could have the facilities to manufacture a fake photo besides the Dallas Crime Lab?  Ike Altgens' home base the Dallas Morning News had sophisticated photographic equipment and several other places in Dallas did also.  The rifle has been described as manufactured evidence also.  The pistol that killed Tippit was an automatic rather than a revolver.  The DPD was notorious for framing people.  Difference between an automatic and a pistol is practically no difference at all has evidence.  Simply substitute a revolver.  What shells?  Change those also!

I don't think Oswald had a pistol.  I think one was taken to the Texas Theater.  I don't think Oswald was to leave there alive.  The pistol had a bent firing pin and was incapable of being fired.  It was a throw down.  Evidence that Oswald was a violent, insane killer.  The pistol is justification for killing Oswald in the theater.  However, the sassy rogue didn't cooperate and seized the pistol and then punched Officer McDonald and knocked him down.  Other officers not in on the plan subdued Oswald.  He lived.  All that is speculation.  But, it is just as worthy to consider as what we know about what happened there and later in the office of Captain Fritz. 

Who was in the theater that could bear witness to the tale?  Where is the list of people in the theater?   

George De Mohrenschildt and Roscoe White had copies.  How did they get those? 

 

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23 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Says here Fritz agreed to hand the photos over to the WC;

I assume the photo with the Oswald silhouette cutout was not part of the package, otherwise the WC would have been aware of a third Oswald pose, correct?

Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever inspect these premises on Neely Street? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. With the Secret Service. We went over there and we searched that apartment thoroughly. It was vacant. The man came over that owned it, opened the house for us, we searched it thoroughly and went through the yard and made some pictures in the backyard exactly like that with another man, of course, holding the papers. 
Mr. McCLOY. Are the pictures in the record? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; we have them in the record, the ones we made over there. I suppose you have them here. 
Mr. McCLOY. Do we have the pictures? 
Mr. BALL. I don't believe we have any pictures that you made. 
Mr. FRITZ. Of the one we made over in the backyard. 
Mr. McCLOY. I think it is important we get those because of the charge this picture was doctored. Have a picture of the premises which these pictures were taken. 
Mr. BALL. Maybe Lieutenant Day has them. 
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; those pictures were made with--we have them, I am sure of that, our men made the pictures. I believe we have them right here. Maybe we didn't bring them, but we have them. 
Mr. BALL. Could you send them to us? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; Lieutenant Day may have some with him. His men have them. 

Fritz didn't deliver on his promise.  Either he couldn't deliver on his promise or giving up 133 C would have exposed the DPD as the source.  He probably had no intention of delivering any BYP other than the first two.  Roscoe probably kept one as insurance since that one , 133 C, was buried for years. 

Maybe he was just told that there were pictures that were taken while he was at Neeley Street.  And, it could have been on 11-29-63 when pictures were taken but, not the second set of BYPs.  I still think the second set of BYPs were made later.  This includes the ghost photo of 133 C.  I think 133 C remained with the DYP for years and was later used to make the second set of BYPs..

Anyway, one thing is for sure.  We know the source of the original BYPs from what was said by Fritz at the WC.  Lt. Day and the Identification Bureau / Crime Lab.  That is where Roscoe White went when he joined the Dallas Police Force.  It explains how Roscoe's wife ended up with 133 C but, not how George de Mohrrenchildt had his.   

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"Quick question ... when did the Bobby Brown / Backyard re-enactment Ghost photos etc first surface?"

Still a good question that needs and answer.  I can't find any info on that.  Somebody out there should know.

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13 minutes ago, John Butler said:

"Quick question ... when did the Bobby Brown / Backyard re-enactment Ghost photos etc first surface?"

Still a good question that needs and answer.  I can't find any info on that.  Somebody out there should know.

I've come across 1993 in several books

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20 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Fritz didn't deliver on his promise. 

Reminds me of the tenant register on Beckley 

Mr. BALL. How many tenants did you have in October last year? 
Mrs. JOHNSON. You know, I'm sorry I didn't bring my register. I couldn't tell you exactly

At least she bought in a scrap of paper

Mrs. JOHNSON. O.H. L-e-e [spelling]. 
Mr. BALL. Did he sign anything with that name? 
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I have it in my purse. 
Mr. BALL. May I see it? 
Mrs. JOHNSON. I will be glad to--I don't want you to keep it. I want you to--I brought it for your information. I knew you was going to ask that. 
Mr. BALL. Now, is this in his handwriting? 
Mrs. JOHNSON. This "O. H. Lee" is in his handwriting and this other is in the housekeeper's handwriting--Mrs. Roberts. 

Where's that register today?

Back to Fritz ... He said the Secret Service were out there ... they didn't have copies of the photos?

Another observation is the landlord, Waldo, was out there that day, opened the place up for them. His affidavit displays the same date which appears on a FBI document. Does this mean the FBI knew about the Neely photo visit on the same day? They didn't get photos either?

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