Lumpkin, Gannaway, and the DPD-Army Intelligence network

[Ron Bulman]

8 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Ron, 

As far as a shooter arriving from SE Asia, I'd suggest looking at Evan Marshall's posts. He describes meeting him.

Thanks for refreshing my memory David.  That was in June of this year on page 5 of this thread.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/15145-william-king-harvey-aka-oliver-hardy/page/5/

As B A Copeland mentions there, I think I remember reading about it before, elsewhere in my case.  Seems like it was several years ago??? 

[Paul Brancato]

No hookers in my background either. I think It’s a Maine accent. 

[Paul Brancato]

3 hours ago, Jon Pickering said:

Voracious reading and research - not the least of which is Bill Simpich's current run through this most obstacled of courses to truth, and Brancato's eloquent support thereof - and observation leads me to the conclusion that the full weight of the U.S. military's armed forces' institutional authority ramrodded - as in concieved, plotted, and, executed - John F. Kennedy's murder. Various 'civilian' enties and agencies served the role of patsy - including C.I.A. agents and assets playing civilian roles.

Thanks, but I’d give supporting credits to Steve Thomas. 

I am not a researcher, but I’ve been at this since 1964, after seeing Mark Lane speak a few times in NYC. 

There are strong ties between Military and CIA, and high ranking military, such as a General Lansdale, were assigned to CIA duties temporarily. The autopsy seems to have been run by the military.

i know the following proves nothing, but to me it’s a window. JFK read 7 Days in May and asked John Frankenheimer to make a movie from the novel. He even opened up the White House for filming. If you read JFK and the Unspeakable you really get a sense for the enmity between JFK and his Joint  Chiefs. It was so bad with Lyman Lemnitzer that he reassigned him to head NATO. Lemnitzer was a character witness for General Edwin Walker during Congressional hearings before JFK attempted to reassign Walker to Hawaii. Walker resigned instead.

Steve Thomas, Bill Kelly and others, now Bill Simpich, have dug deeply into Military Intelligence in Dallas (mainly Army and Reserve Army), in the motorcade, in the Dallas Police Force. Local Army Intelligence ran the Continuity of Government underneath the Dallas Fairgrounds. That gave them access to very sophisticated communications equipment, enabling direct links to the White House. I think they may have also have provided an alternative to normal police radio channels, and probably were the source of the Harvey Lee Oswald variant and the false physical description that became first evidence against Oswald. I think this alternative Oswald was birthed by Angleton as a dangle to see where the false info surfaced. That it surfaced in military files is curious. What is even more disturbing is that most of Oswalds military files were destroyed. It is a hard conspiracy angle to research. 

[Paul Bacon]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

No hookers in my background either. I think It’s a Maine accent. 

I thought it was Maine accent until I heard her say she worked for the Boston PD.  Then I changed my position.  Now, I think you're right.  Oh well...

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Jon Pickering]

Thanks, Mr. Brancato, for the thoughtful reply. Yes, the quote we remember best - and it may not have been in Mr. Douglas' book - was JFK's thinking out loud that if there was ever a coup against him, his administration, it would be by the Military.

The armed forces are difficult to investigate for their alleged central role in JFK's murder because they destroyed - from our understanding - all of Lee Oswald's records surrounding the assassination.

Then again, if memory serves, a fire destroyed nearly 14 million U.S. personnel files in 1973. We haven't read enough to conclude whether it was set intentionally, or, not - but it certainly caused a lot of heartache among vets who were due benefits.

*Also, thank you Mr. Thomas for providing much of the digging into the Pentagon involvement angle - the pent-angle so to speak.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Jon Pickering

[Bill Simpich]

A few more nuggets on this subject - Larry Hancock pointed out two mysteries about the 112th some time ago:

1.  Did the 112th deploy personnel in Dallas to assist the Secret Service?   Lt. Col. Robert Jones said yes - "8-12" from his unit alone.  But there is no paper record supporting his statement and others disputed it.  Who is right?   

Right now, I would put my money on Jones, because SS Agent Winston Lawson was the man in charge of the motorcade - there has much comment over the years about his Lawson's role in setting up the motorcade and the lack of security - the decisions for lunch at the Trade Mart, which meant going thru Dealey Plaza; the conduct of an insecure dogleg at Dealey Plaza; the decisions not to search the high buildings; the lack of a bubbletop; the failure to have police motorcyclists flanking the President; the failure to have agents prepared to shield the President inside the car; the failure of the agents in the front seat to take proper evasive action - and where is the tape of the Secret Service radio calls on that day?

Larry Hancock quotes Vince Palamara as saying that Lawson was with the Army reserve.  do see Spot Reports issued by the 112th from the scene and dated 11/22/63, which ties in with the second mystery --

2.  The majority of the information given to the 112th and reported by the 112th to various agencies was either incorrect, inaccurate, or actively suppressed - because it did not become part of the official investigation or record.

Look at SS Agent Winston Lawson - much comment over the years about his role in setting up the motorcade and related subjects - Larry Hancock quotes Vince Palamara as saying that Lawson was with the Army reserve.  

George Doughty - head of the Dallas police Identification Division - he was with the 112th MIG and may have provided info to Col. Robert Jones of the 112th that the Hidell card was found on Oswald's person - I am trying to find Spot Report 418 (Larry H may have it) - Spot Report 419 from the 112th later on 11/22/63 does originate from "Dowdy".

Jones called it into the FBI's San Antonio branch at 3:15 pm.  The FBI HQ had this info before the day was over.

On 11/22, Jones was only given information about Hidell, not Oswald from his source - he had to do his own sleuthing to cross-index Hidell's name and find out about Oswald.

On 11/22, the reports from Dallas cops other than possibly Doughty refer to Oswald, not Hidell.  who picked up Oswald at the Theatre refer to Oswald, not Hidell.

And curiously, that Army Intelligence file (Dossier AB 65276) that was destroyed in the 70s was in the name of "Lee Harvey Oswald" - not "Harvey Lee Oswald"!   That apparent misinformation was credited to Peter Dale Scott, who sought me out on this subject and said he was misquoted on this long ago.

Lumpkin was head of the Service Division, which included George Doughty's Identification Bureau, Fingerprint Section, Crime Scene Search Section, HQ Section, Warrant Section, Property Bureau and the Records Bureau.

Doughty had control of the first day evidence.  His initials can be found on one of the Tippit shells.  Dale Myers cites Doughty as the man in the wallet footage shot by WFAA at the Tippit death scene, looking on as Croy's superior Owens passes the wallet to Westbrook.  

If Doughty heard Westbrook ask FBI agent Robert Barrett:  "Ever hear of Lee Oswald?  Ever hear of Alek Hidell?" at the scene - as Barrett claims -  that may be why Doughty was one of two officers that remained at the Tippit death scene while everyone else charged off with the new hot tip that the suspect was "in the balcony".  To be fair, he and the other officer were with the crime unit, - but why were they the only ones who stayed?  And why did the officers who captured Oswald say nothing about the Hidell card on 11/22/63, even in their internal communications, while the FBI and the 112th were buzzing all about it?

I should add that I went thru all the testimony of the three individuals in the theater looking for the suspect before the police were called - and the consensus was that it was too dark to see where the suspect was - either the ground floor or the balcony.  The ticket taker, Julia Postal, testified that she called the police, but never made a statement for the record that she told the dispatcher that she thought the suspect was in the balcony.

 

[Larry Hancock]

I guess I will have to weigh in again as a contrarian...sorry Bill. 

This is a point that was extensively investigated by the ARRB, who interviewed and took statements from several of the actual individuals in the Dallas office of the 112th, including the office commander.  All those individuals stated that they had no orders for involvement in the president's security and in fact described their other activities that day.  I would encourage everyone to check out the ARRB work, interviews and reports on the 112th; I collected much of it in paper form and Lancer made it available on CD years ago. 

That CD also contains the ARRB inquiry into Col. Jones statements and his role and duties in 1963 - as well as information from the unit commander about the security issue.  One of the real questions in play being why Jones was called to testify rather than the actual unit commander, unit operations officer,  or more importantly the Dallas office commander - who would be the one with the most immediate knowledge.

The CD also includes the communications between Jones (intelligence officer at the time; not operations officer) and Dallas including all the background on the information in his files about Oswald and his communications with Dallas DPD.

I've posted on all this many times and I expect its just beginning to bore folks so the best I can do is recommend that you obtain and read the document collection yourselves and make your own call; I will say that the ARRB military staff member made a huge effort to dig into this because of Prouty's claims about security stripping and all that is addressed in the ARRB files and in the CD collection as well.

http://jfklancer.com/catalog/hancock/index.html

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Larry Hancock

[Larry Hancock]

I really should add that the reason the HSCA took testimony from Jones and dug into the rumor about the 112th was that they were attempting to explore the rumors about unknown men showing security credentials in the plaza the day of the assassination - as in the DPD encounter behind the fence.  The sad thing is that Jone's testimony was used to propose that the unknown personnel were military intelligence and that closed the door on the whole matter...  Which is really sad since the FBI was holding a report of someone who had gone to Dallas, carrying fake secret service ID - Roy Hargraves.  That lead could have been really productive but for some reason Jones was called, gave testimony and the whole issue was wrongly laid to rest.

[Steve Thomas]

9 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

One of the real questions in play being why Jones was called to testify rather than the actual unit commander, unit operations officer,  or more importantly the Dallas office commander - who would be the one with the most immediate knowledge.

Larry,

The fact that Jones took no pride in the "Stringfellow cable":, didn't know who George Whitmeyer was; and Stringfellow and Biggio manning the radio at the Fairgrounds on the 22nd, tells me that there was a line of communication going on that has never really been explored.

Personally, I think the 112th is a dead end and a smoke screen.

 

Steve Thomas

[Larry Hancock]

I don't know that its a smokescreen but I consider it a dead end myself.  Unfortunately it served as a diversion to close down the question of people with fake ID in the plaza - a real sign of conspiracy.  On the Strike Command cable, we have discussed that many times and I consider it a standard advisory circulated out of DC to multiple commands and re-transmitted by some...but that's just me. 

Certainly there were separate channels of communication,  the nation was opening new ones throughout that period, to deal with continuity of government in a nuclear attack....for those that really want to understand the depth and breadth of that effort (which I have never seen full discussed in JFK venues) I would recommend Raven Rock by Garrett Graff for the best possible understanding - it goes far deeper than either I did in Surprise Attack or Peter Dale Scott did on his writing about COG.

[Jon Pickering]

https://aarclibrary.org/missing-records/

 

Missing JFK Assassination Records – Revised and Updated

The Black Hole at the Archives  – Top Fifty Missing Assassination Records  

By William Kelly

26. Army Intelligence files on Oswald were kept from the Warren Commission and then “routinely” destroyed.

 

Q: Would a party innocent of involvement do this.

[Steve Thomas]

51 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

I don't know that its a smokescreen but I consider it a dead end myself.  Unfortunately it served as a diversion to close down the question of people with fake ID in the plaza - a real sign of conspiracy.  On the Strike Command cable, we have discussed that many times and I consider it a standard advisory circulated out of DC to multiple commands and re-transmitted by some...but that's just me. 

Certainly there were separate channels of communication,  the nation was opening new ones throughout that period, to deal with continuity of government in a nuclear attack....for those that really want to understand the depth and breadth of that effort (which I have never seen full discussed in JFK venues) I would recommend Raven Rock by Garrett Graff for the best possible understanding - it goes far deeper than either I did in Surprise Attack or Peter Dale Scott did on his writing about COG.

Larry,

 

No, you're right about the Strike Command cable itself. It was coming out of Washington. Technically, Jones would not claim ownership of it. I feel like Jones was being asked about its contents, and he wanted no part of it. While I think there were, and are, real concerns about the 112th's role in domestic surveillance, I myself just don't think they had any part to play in JFK's assassination.

Thank you for the recommendation about Raven Rock. I will have to look into it.

 

Steve Thomas

[Larry Hancock]

I'm totally with you on this Steve - and one of the real issues with Jone's testimony is that he was asked all sorts of questions about topics he had no first hand experience with or professional exposure too.  Certainly he was Army intelligence and asking him about military field intelligence would have been fine, if irrelevant, but the committee members also started tossing all sorts of broader intelligence issues and practices at him - in regard to Oswald, his defection, his behavior etc.  And Jones showed no hesitancy to respond to all of them, not at all bashful about going out of his own ballpark.    

However, aside from Jones, there is a large amount of 112th information that is relevant.  Its documents reveal the tasking of the Army's domestic units with monitoring the FPCC and traffic and from Cuba. They also give us our best information about weapons dealing in Dallas, purchasing efforts by the Cuban exiles and probably gun dealing by Jack Ruby.  All good stuff which does not get nearly enough attention in my view.

[Bill Simpich]

Thank you Larry - you are my favorite contrarian.   Could you re-visit aspects of the two questions you posed years ago?  These are the aspects that I'm trying to figure out.

On the alleged relationship between the 112th and the Secret Service:  You have studied this deeply - do you think Jones made up his story about 8-12 personnel coming to aid the Secret Service?   Paul Hoch studied it back in the 70s in the pre-ARRB area, and concluded that the after-action report of Jones that would have contained their accounts had been lost. 

(Roy Hargraves was a bad actor and his actions should never be laid to rest.  Hargraves had a history of working with the Army Reserves, the Cuban exiles, and many other intriguing characters.)

On the suppression/inaccuracy of the 112th's reports:  Do you think Jones made up his story that he learned about the Hidell card from someone (Doughty?) and passed it on to the FBI by 3:15 pm on 11/22?

 

[Larry Hancock]

Hi Bill,  fortunately I can tackle both of those and they are developed in much more detail with the documents and analysis on the CD I referenced.

First off, Jones was the intelligence officer for the 112th at that specific time (although he held both positions at different points).  It would have been the unit commander and the  operations officer who would have had direct knowledge if the 112th HQ had been requested to provide security - and the commander specifically told the ARRB that no such request had been made and no personnel had been deployed.  As an alternative, it might have been the case that a local request in Dallas could have been passed on to the Dallas 112th office...but the Dallas commander said no to that as well in his remarks to the ARRB inquiry .   So did several individuals on the Dallas 112th staff that were interviewed.  The ARRB analyst also determined that such a request would not have normailly come from the Secret Service to the military other than in the case of trips and visits to military installations or some location where there was not a sufficient local law enforcement presence. 

So why did Jones say what he did....I really have no clue other than he appeared to talk about many things he really had no personal knowledge of...in this instance it looks more like the questioning was trying to get him to say that the folks with ID could have been military and he went along with it....(for that matter, I'm not sure that there were even that many guys in Dallas but the ARRB did collect the roster).  I would also add that there is no record of any such request in Lawson's report and for that matter the Sheriff's department was told they would not be needed for security, which would have been the first choice for back up over the 112th. Instead the DPD called in its police reserve officers to fill in the mid-block gaps in the security coverage on the route...that is documented. Was Jones just being too "helpful", beats me - I can't even figure out why they called him other than the commander of the Dallas 112th unit.

On the Hidell card, actually Jones brags about that a lot and if  you examine the communications going back and forth from him to the police intel folks in Dallas, he does get credit for raising the Hidell name.  The reason he could do that is that his files contained a copy of a report (Army intel was on distribution for matters pertaining to FPCC) out of Dallas and one of the FBI reports there speculates that Oswald and Hidell were indeed the same guy and Oswald was using it as an alias in building up an FPCC group that did not really exist. That afternoon Jones was eager to float that name to everyone but it had originally come into his files from the FBI much earlier, during Oswald's time in New Orleans.

Anyway, those are very good questions and I spent quite a time slogging though all the documents, both separately from the 112th and from out of the ARRB work before I could timeline them to the extent of knocking some of the mystery out of it.