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Bart Kamp

Then went outside to watch the P. parade

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11 hours ago, François Carlier said:

Are you saying that Buell Frazier is still afraid of the conspirators or the authorities ?

 

Well of course Frazier is still afraid, Francois. If word got out from an eyewitness that Oswald was out standing on the front steps of the TSBD during the shooting, and he (Frazier) was coerced by the U.S. government into keeping that secret, and the whole thing unraveled, revealing to the American public that the CIA had orchestrated a coup d'etat against the legitimate U.S. government, that would spell disaster for the CIA. Do you think the CIA would just throw it's hands up  and cry uncle?

Buell Frazier is under a great deal of pressure to not talk.

 

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11 hours ago, David Von Pein said:
20 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I proved two or three years ago that Baker didn't rush into the TSBD like the official story tells it.

You "proved" no such thing...


Sure I did.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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Just now, Sandy Larsen said:

Sure I did.

Am I allowed to disagree with you on this, Sandy?  :)

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7 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

After the assassination, they were trying to piece together for a long time how and when Oswald left the TSBD ... yet Frazier had that information in hand all along.

I doubt that very much. (Check Frazier's first-day affidavit again.)

Edited by David Von Pein

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12 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Well of course Frazier is still afraid, Francois. If word got out from an eyewitness that Oswald was out standing on the front steps of the TSBD during the shooting, and he (Frazier) was coerced by the U.S. government into keeping that secret, and the whole thing unraveled, revealing to the American public that the CIA had orchestrated a coup d'etat against the legitimate U.S. government, that would spell disaster for the CIA. Do you think the CIA would just throw it's hands up  and cry uncle?

Buell Frazier is under a great deal of pressure to not talk.

 

Now, I would like to know what other conspiracy advocates think of your statement. Just how many agree with you ?

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2 hours ago, Vanessa Loney said:

I think Junior Jarman should be added to the 2-4 sources who say Oswald was outside. In Junior Jarman's HSCA interview he said Billy Lovelady told him that Oswald was outside.

 

Are you sure it was Jarman who said that, Vanessa? I searched through his HSCA testimony and couldn't find it.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/jarman.htm

 

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FC:

I mean you did read what Bart wrote and assembled right?

Now recall, according to both Walt Brown and Bill Simpich, there was a radio announcement that the rifle used in the assassination was an Enfield. Which was the type of rifle Frazier had. After that announcement, Linnie Mae went over to the police at Ruth Paine's home and started this whole story about the bag LHO brought to work that day.  A story I examine in my book to show how she could never keep it straight.  And how this went on for years on end; recall the whole thing about how did LHO put the bag in the car when Frazier said he locked the doors each night?  Frazier then said that, oh that one door lock was broken and that is how it happened. (Boy did Lee Farley snooker DVP on that one. :)) And let us never forget: how the heck did she see this happen from where the car was positioned through the slats of a car port? (Todd Vaughn said, but there were spaces between the slats.:D)

To any objective observer, which FC is not, there was all kinds of pressure being brought on Frazier.  To the point where he was about to be indicted as part of a plot to kill JFK.  I find it interesting that no one has ever been able to find the transcript or the readings on his polygraph. And the DPD did not want to remember that whole scene.   According to Jim Bishop's book, Wesley was so unstable during the test they could not get a steady read on him.

BTW, when a friend of mine, Al Rossi, asked him about the PM image and showed him the photo, he said that the picture was not clear enough for him to ID who it was.

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3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Francois: there are points on which we can agree and this is certainly one of those.

 

Well, if you look for answers with honesty, then there are a lot of points that we can agree on.

Now, as far as "prayer man" is concerned, I'd be happy if any JFK-assassination researcher who lives in the area of Dallas could try to go and visit Mister Buell Wesley Frazier and ask him a precise question, showing him all the so-called "prayer man" evidence (Wiegman and Darnell films) : "To the best of your knowledge, Mister Frazier, do you recall Lee Oswald being there ? Could it be him ? Was he there ?" (and that researcher would of course video tape the whole interview in HD quality).

Of course, you may say that it will not be "proof"; I know. We can always say that Frazier was wrong, of he didn't remember correctly, of he lied, or he tried to lure us into some belief, etc.

But, depending on how he answers (and we'll be able to watch the video clearly) we can all have a good idea whether Oswald was there or not.

I'm looking forward to that.

Can someone do that ? (I can't, since I live in Paris, France.)

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2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Are you sure it was Jarman who said that, Vanessa? I searched through his HSCA testimony and couldn't find it.

Jarman's remarks were in an interview, unpublished as far as I can tell, given on 25 September 1977 to William Brown and Albert Maxwell. There is a transcript online at https://www.thenewdisease.space/james-jarman-hsca . This is the relevant portion:

Quote

 

And, after we was inside the building after that, I heard that Oswald had came [sic] down through the office and came down the front stairs and he was stopped by the officer that had stopped us and sent us back in the building and Mr. Truddy [sic] told them that that was alright, that he worked here, so then, he proceeded own [sic] out the building and we wondered why he stopped us.

...

Well, there was a billy love lady [sic] standing out there, he was on the steps, see.

...

And, Oswald was coming out the door and he [Lovelady] said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, billy love lady [sic] said that Mr. Trudy [sic] told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.

 

It looks as though Oswald's encounter with a policeman by the front doors took place some time after Marrion Baker's encounter on the third or fourth floor with someone who did not match Oswald's description. As Vanessa points out, the fact that Jarman was quoting Lovelady, who was certainly on the steps during the shooting, adds credence to his account.

Edited by Jeremy Bojczuk

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21 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Jarman's remarks were in an interview, unpublished as far as I can tell, given on 25 September 1977 to William Brown and Albert Maxwell. There is a transcript online at https://www.thenewdisease.space/james-jarman-hsca . This is the relevant portion:

Quote

 

And, after we was inside the building after that, I heard that Oswald had came [sic] down through the office and came down the front stairs and he was stopped by the officer that had stopped us and sent us back in the building and Mr. Truddy [sic] told them that that was alright, that he worked here, so then, he proceeded own [sic] out the building and we wondered why he stopped us.

...

Well, there was a billy love lady [sic] standing out there, he was on the steps, see.

...

And, Oswald was coming out the door and he [Lovelady] said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, billy love lady [sic] said that Mr. Trudy [sic] told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.

 

It looks as though Oswald's encounter with a policeman by the front doors took place some time after Marrion Baker's encounter on the third or fourth floor with someone who did not match Oswald's description. As Vanessa points out, the fact that Jarman was quoting Lovelady, who was certainly on the steps during the shooting, adds credence to his account.

 

Thanks Jeremy.

It appears that Jarman's account of Oswald going outside has him leaving a number of minutes after the shooting. So this cannot be added to the list of accounts of Oswald being on the steps or near the  front door during the shooting.

 

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5 hours ago, David Von Pein said:
5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Sure I [proved it].

Am I allowed to disagree with you on this, Sandy?  :)

 

Sure you can disagree with me. But your opinion won't be worth a lick of salt unless you actually study my proof and show me where it goes wrong.

And when you say you disagree with me, I can't let that go unchallenged because it implies that actually have found an error in my proof.

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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On 2/12/2019 at 6:20 AM, François Carlier said:

I know what Kamp is claiming, namely that Oswald was outside when the shots were fired, which is wrong, since it has been proven that he was inside.

"It has been proven" that Oswald was inside the TSBD during the shooting? Really? I would be interested to see this proof, if M. Carlier would be so kind as to provide it.

Hosty's notes are now the earliest known account by Oswald of his movements at around the time of the shooting. They contradict later accounts, including the FBI agent James Bookhout's version of the interview in question (Warren Report, p.619), which has Oswald performing the following sequence of actions:

1 - shortly after the shooting, he bought a drink in the second-floor lunchroom;
2 - he was accosted by the policeman Marrion Baker;
3 - he took his drink down to the first-floor domino room, where he ate his lunch;
4 - he went outside and "stood around for five or ten minutes";
5 - and finally he went home.

We can be sure that Bookhout's sequence of events is incorrect, for two reasons. Firstly, the earliest and most reliable statements by two TSBD employees have Oswald eating his lunch before, not after, the shooting (Eddie Piper: Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.499; Charles Givens: Commission Document 5, p.329, and http://22november1963.org.uk/meagher-the-curious-testimony-of-mr-givens). Secondly, Bookhout's version requires Oswald to have hung around the book depository for far longer than anyone has been able to demonstrate. It is certainly incompatible with the official account of Oswald's movements, which has him leaving the building only three minutes after the shooting, far too soon for Oswald to have performed all the actions Bookhout described.

Hosty's notes surely provide an accurate version of what Oswald claimed to have done:

1 - before the shooting, he visited the second-floor lunchroom, where he bought a drink;
2 - he went down to the first-floor domino room to eat his lunch;
3 - and finally he went outside to watch the parade.

Not only is Oswald's genuine alibi more coherent than the later version of it put forward by the authorities, but there is evidence to support each element of the alibi:

1 - Carolyn Arnold claimed to have seen Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom at around 12:15 (http://22november1963.org.uk/carolyn-arnold-witness-oswald; if you prefer her earlier account, of seeing him on the first floor at around 12:25, that too exonerates Oswald). Oswald's behaviour was not unusual; that day, another warehouse employee bought a drink on the second floor and then went down to the first floor (James Jarman: Hearings, vol.3, p.201).
2 - Bookhout's account includes a remark by Oswald that he had seen "two Negro employees", of whom one was called 'Junior' and the other was short, in the vicinity of the domino room while he was eating his lunch. James 'Junior' Jarman (Hearings, vol.3, pp.201-202) and the vertically challenged Harold Norman (Hearings, vol.3, pp.189-190) testified that they had entered the building at around 12:25, using the rear entrance, which would have taken them right past the domino room.
3 - There is photographic evidence of someone who looks remarkably like Oswald, standing by the front doors of the TSBD during the shooting.

It all fits: Oswald went up to the second-floor lunchroom briefly to buy a drink, he returned to the first floor and ate his lunch in the domino room, he was there until at least 12:25, and then he went outside to watch the parade.

If that is what happened, the second-floor encounter with Baker and Roy Truly almost certainly didn't. It is conceivable that Oswald went back inside immediately after the shooting, dashed up to the second-floor lunchroom, and bought a drink, all in time to meet Baker and Truly. This seems unlikely, though, because it would require Baker and Truly to have gone up to the second floor noticeably later than the official account claims, and because Oswald had already been up there to obtain a drink, probably less than half an hour earlier.

There are other reasons to doubt the reality of the second-floor encounter:

- Marrion Baker's earliest account fails to mention it, a surprising omission considering that Oswald was actually in the room with him when Baker wrote his account (Hearings, vol.3 pp.257-258), though Baker does mention an encounter on the third or fourth floor with someone who did not match Oswald's description.
- The official account of the second-floor encounter was ridiculously malleable, going through several versions as each placement of Oswald was found to be incompatible with the timing of the alleged assassin's dash downstairs. First of all, Oswald was in the lunchroom, drinking a Coke. Then he was merely purchasing the Coke. Then he was sitting at a table. Finally, he wasn't actually in the lunchroom at all but in the vestibule on his way into the lunchroom.
- Oswald apparently did mention an encounter with a policeman in a vestibule, but this was the vestibule by the main entrance to the building, not the one by the lunchroom (Harry Holmes: Hearings, vol.7, pp.302, 305-306). Oswald's account is corroborated by Billy Lovelady, reported at second-hand by James Jarman, who witnessed an encounter between Oswald and a policeman by the main entrance as Oswald was on his way out of the building (see my post above for a transcript of Jarman's recollections).

I used to assume that the second-floor encounter had actually happened, partly because I wasn't aware of any reason to question it and partly because it didn't make sense for the authorities to invent an account which pretty much rules out Oswald as the sixth-floor gunman (see Howard Roffman, Presumed Guilty, chapter 8: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/PG/PGchp8.html). But I'm finding it difficult now to avoid the conclusion that Oswald's encounter with a policeman by the front doors was transposed to the second floor as a desperate (and, as it turned out, not very successful) way of negating Oswald's alibi.

Now, where's the proof that Oswald was inside the whole time?

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35 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

"It has been proven" that Oswald was inside the TSBD during the shooting? Really? I would be interested to see this proof, if M. Carlier would be so kind as to provide it.

Hosty's notes are now the earliest known account by Oswald of his movements at around the time of the shooting. They contradict later accounts, including the FBI agent James Bookhout's version of the interview in question (Warren Report, p.619), which has Oswald performing the following sequence of actions:

1 - shortly after the shooting, he bought a drink in the second-floor lunchroom;
2 - he was accosted by the policeman Marrion Baker;
3 - he took his drink down to the first-floor domino room, where he ate his lunch;
4 - he went outside and "stood around for five or ten minutes";
5 - and finally he went home.

We can be sure that Bookhout's sequence of events is incorrect, for two reasons. Firstly, the earliest and most reliable statements by two TSBD employees have Oswald eating his lunch before, not after, the shooting (Eddie Piper: Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.499; Charles Givens: Commission Document 5, p.329, and http://22november1963.org.uk/meagher-the-curious-testimony-of-mr-givens). Secondly, Bookhout's version requires Oswald to have hung around the book depository for far longer than anyone has been able to demonstrate. It is certainly incompatible with the official account of Oswald's movements, which has him leaving the building only three minutes after the shooting, far too soon for Oswald to have performed all the actions Bookhout described.

Hosty's notes surely provide an accurate version of what Oswald claimed to have done:

1 - before the shooting, he visited the second-floor lunchroom, where he bought a drink;
2 - he went down to the first-floor domino room to eat his lunch;
3 - and finally he went outside to watch the parade.

Not only is Oswald's genuine alibi more coherent than the later version of it put forward by the authorities, but there is evidence to support each element of the alibi:

1 - Carolyn Arnold claimed to have seen Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom at around 12:15 (http://22november1963.org.uk/carolyn-arnold-witness-oswald; if you prefer her earlier account, of seeing him on the first floor at around 12:25, that too exonerates Oswald). Oswald's behaviour was not unusual; that day, another warehouse employee bought a drink on the second floor and then went down to the first floor (James Jarman: Hearings, vol.3, p.201).
2 - Bookhout's account includes a remark by Oswald that he had seen "two Negro employees", of whom one was called 'Junior' and the other was short, in the vicinity of the domino room while he was eating his lunch. James 'Junior' Jarman (Hearings, vol.3, pp.201-202) and the vertically challenged Harold Norman (Hearings, vol.3, pp.189-190) testified that they had entered the building at around 12:25, using the rear entrance, which would have taken them right past the domino room.
3 - There is photographic evidence of someone who looks remarkably like Oswald, standing by the front doors of the TSBD during the shooting.

It all fits: Oswald went up to the second-floor lunchroom briefly to buy a drink, he returned to the first floor and ate his lunch in the domino room, he was there until at least 12:25, and then he went outside to watch the parade.

If that is what happened, the second-floor encounter with Baker and Roy Truly almost certainly didn't. It is conceivable that Oswald went back inside immediately after the shooting, dashed up to the second-floor lunchroom, and bought a drink, all in time to meet Baker and Truly. This seems unlikely, though, because it would require Baker and Truly to have gone up to the second floor noticeably later than the official account claims, and because Oswald had already been up there to obtain a drink, probably less than half an hour earlier.

There are other reasons to doubt the reality of the second-floor encounter:

- Marrion Baker's earliest account fails to mention it, a surprising omission considering that Oswald was actually in the room with him when Baker wrote his account (Hearings, vol.3 pp.257-258), though Baker does mention an encounter on the third or fourth floor with someone who did not match Oswald's description.
- The official account of the second-floor encounter was ridiculously malleable, going through several versions as each placement of Oswald was found to be incompatible with the timing of the alleged assassin's dash downstairs. First of all, Oswald was in the lunchroom, drinking a Coke. Then he was merely purchasing the Coke. Then he was sitting at a table. Finally, he wasn't actually in the lunchroom at all but in the vestibule on his way into the lunchroom.
- Oswald apparently did mention an encounter with a policeman in a vestibule, but this was the vestibule by the main entrance to the building, not the one by the lunchroom (Harry Holmes: Hearings, vol.7, pp.302, 305-306). Oswald's account is corroborated by Billy Lovelady, reported at second-hand by James Jarman, who witnessed an encounter between Oswald and a policeman by the main entrance as Oswald was on his way out of the building (see my post above for a transcript of Jarman's recollections).

I used to assume that the second-floor encounter had actually happened, partly because I wasn't aware of any reason to question it and partly because it didn't make sense for the authorities to invent an account which pretty much rules out Oswald as the sixth-floor gunman (see Howard Roffman, Presumed Guilty, chapter 8: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/PG/PGchp8.html). But I'm finding it difficult now to avoid the conclusion that Oswald's encounter with a policeman by the front doors was transposed to the second floor as a desperate (and, as it turned out, not very successful) way of negating Oswald's alibi.

Now, where's the proof that Oswald was inside the whole time?

Fc? Keep waiting.  

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As to the timing of Lee Oswald's movements during and just after shooting, there does not seem to be enough detailed data in witness testimonies. Based on data presented in this thread, I am inclined to believe that Oswald was in the 1st floor lunchroom when shots rang out which should satisfy our LN colleagues here (Oswald was in the building during the shooting). However, he moved to the front of the first floor and into the doorway (the glass door was semi-open throughout the assassination) when he heard shots and he reached his spot as Prayer Man only seconds after the last shot (he saw the tail of the P. parade and the excitement). We see Prayer Man at his spot in Wiegman but I fail to see him at that spot in Hughes. I asked Chris Davidson for his estimate of the 1st Wiegman frame showing the doorway (W14) relative to Z313. Dale Meyer's estimate (frame Z257 = W14) does not seem to be plausible because some of the doorway occupants changed their postures/locations significantly between Altgens6 (Z255) and W14. As a small example: Carl Jones stares to the east (Houston Street) in Altgens6 but not in Wiegman.

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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