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Bart Kamp

Then went outside to watch the P. parade

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The problem in these identifications is simple.  As Pat Speer has pointed out, there was never any genuine attempt by the FBI to identify who was in those pictures.

In a crime of this magnitude, that should have been done in a systematic way.

It was not.  In fact, it was not even done in a haphazard way as far as I can see.

This is why, today, over 50 years later, we are still doing it.  This shows you what a joke the WC was.  Rankin should have asked them to do this.

And this should have been a very early request. 

 

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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I think Vanessa is correct about the Jarman/Lovelady dispute.

Man if you consider what Rob Couteau clipped from above, and Lovelady and Vicki Adams, and now this, I mean that guy had to have known what was going on, at least a little bit.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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29 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Man if you consider what Rob Couteau clipped from above,

It sure looks like Ball cut Lovelady off, the names he wanted clarification on, Stanton and Shelley, had already been mentioned earlier in the same testimony;

Mr. BALL - Who were you working with? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, there was Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce and Slim, Charles Givens; we call him Slim, and let me see, well Mr. Shelley would come up every once in while, check on us. He wasn't workin' with us but he would come up see how we gettin' along. 
Mr. BALL - That's Mr. Shelley? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Bill Shelley. 

---

Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there. 

 

 

 

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In my humble opinion men such as Belin, Ball, Liebeler and Blakey, McCone,Helms, Angelton, Phillips, Harvey and Hunt as well as Emory Roberts and SS Chief Rowley. McGeorge Bundy and Nicholas Katzenbach should all have been charged with conspiring to pervert the course of justice in the crime of the assassination of President John F Kennedy.

 

Perhaps that is why RFK had to be eliminated quickly once it looked possible that he could win the office of the president.

Edited by Adam Johnson

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Hello everybody,
This thread is just a dead-end !
Or, rather, it is a very good example of self-delusion at work !

I love the way you are all saying that Billy Lovelady gave the names of the colleagues around him and at the same time you all keep repeating that Buell Frazier did not say that Oswald was there because people didn't see their colleagues around them, as they were only focused on the parade…

You can't have it both ways. You must choose : were the people on the steps aware of their colleagues around them or not ?

I say they were.
And guess what : NOT ONE OF THEM ever said that Oswald was near them !! Not even Blilly Lovelady. Never. Not to the Dallas police, nor to the Warren Commission, nor to their friends, nor to their husbands/wives, nor to their children, not in 1963, nor at any time since then.

Nobody ever said that they saw Oswald next to them on the steps at the time of the shooting. Repeat : nobody, never.

Even in private, even at conspiracy conferences or in conspiracy books, not one of Oswald's colleagues ever said that he was with them on the steps of the TSBD (in 55 years !). 

But you are all trying all you can to "guess", from selected pieces of interviews here and there.

Sorry, it won't wash !

Let's face it : you guys have nothing.

I'll say it again : Bart Kamp is to "prayer man" what Jim Fetzer was to the "fake Zapruder film" or Barr McClellan to the "Wallace finger print" : a spokesman for a new ludicrous theory that will only last temporarily and eventually die down and disappear.

Edited by François Carlier

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Francois, 

Do you know where a first generation print of Darnell or Weigman is located?

If you do, why not secure it?

If you do not then what you are doing is sort of like urinating in the wind.  You don't know so why say it?

 

 

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On 2/12/2019 at 10:46 PM, François Carlier said:

Yeah, sure. To think that if YOU had been the head of the Dallas police that day, everything would have been done neatly and professionally. The real assassin would have been caught, there would never have been any cover-up, and everybody would be happy.
Satisfied ?
OK, I can now go back to my serious posts.
 

Uh. no, I'm not satisfied. I think my question was reasonable. Apparently you also agree the investigation was botched as why else would you be making excuses for the parties involved?

I'll quote an assistant prosecutor who worked with Wade at the time:  Long-time Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade, whose tenure in office spanned the years 1951 to 1987, once told an assistant prosecutor, “If you ever put another n****r on a jury, you’re fired.” An office manual first written in 1963 instructed Dallas County prosecutors not to “take Jews, Negroes, Dagos, Mexicans or a member of any minority race on a jury, no matter how rich or how well educated.” That's your boy! All professional and everything.

My question was: What leads you to  " ... defer to the conclusions of experts and witnesses and police officers who were there in the field to investigate the case" that these people had any kind of expertise in their respective fields? Fritz didn't even have a stenographer present? Then marched the most hated and despised American on the planet, Oswald, into an underground garage chock full of people who could come and go as they pleased? Yeah,  I could ask a random person what their opinion is on how to handle the transfer and he/she could do better! I could go on...

It just seems to me there was a lot of Keystone Cops going on and it presents several problems whether Oswald was the assassin or not or if the whole affair was covered up. I don't expect a learned person to dance by those points with a wave of the hand.

 

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13 hours ago, B. A. Copeland said:

I somewhat agree with you (we don’t need to ID everyone but....perhaps it would somehow help when connecting dots) though perhaps my wording leads you to respond in such a way as to say that everyone needs to be ID’ in order to know what happened. That could actually be true. I mean think of the film and video footage that had been confiscated never to return and how it would assist us in identifying those in the plaza. Suppose we ID someone who has been ID’ elsewhere, say, Anti-Castro Cuban training camps, etc. It would help.

Yes, that's true. But my main point was that no matter how many "unidentified" people we have in the Dealey Plaza photos and films, the physical evidence that points to Lee Oswald is not going to disappear. It's going to be there until the cows come home (and beyond).

Edited by David Von Pein

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20 hours ago, François Carlier said:

I'd be happy if any JFK-assassination researcher who lives in the area of Dallas could try to go and visit Mister Buell Wesley Frazier and ask him a precise question, showing him all the so-called "prayer man" evidence (Wiegman and Darnell films) : "To the best of your knowledge, Mister Frazier, do you recall Lee Oswald being there ? Could it be him ? Was he there ?"

[...]

Can someone do that ?

Let me remind everyone what Frazier told the Warren Commission in 1964 regarding the subject of "The Last Time Buell Wesley Frazier Saw Lee Harvey Oswald On November 22nd, 1963"....

JOSEPH A. BALL - When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?
BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER - You mean on the 22nd?
Mr. BALL - On the 22nd, that day.
Mr. FRAZIER - Somewhere between---it was after 10 and somewhere before noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.
Mr. BALL - That was the last time you saw him all day?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't talk to him again?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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23 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Let me remind everyone what Frazier told the Warren Commission in 1964 regarding the subject of "The Last Time Buell Wesley Frazier Saw Lee Harvey Oswald On November 22nd, 1963"....

JOSEPH A. BALL - When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?
BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER - You mean on the 22nd?
Mr. BALL - On the 22nd, that day.
Mr. FRAZIER - Somewhere between---it was after 10 and somewhere before noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.
Mr. BALL - That was the last time you saw him all day?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't talk to him again?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.

 

I would be inclined to say that that settles it. The so-called "prayer man" CANNOT BE Lee Oswald.
I mean, it is a fact that Buell Wesley Frazier was there and he didn't see Oswald there.
Case closed !

(No, wait : some people who call themselves conspiracy theorists and were nowhere near Dallas that day want us to believe that despite the fact that nobody saw Oswald there and he himself said he was elsewhere, well, he must have been there anyway…)
Oh, well, never mind...

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3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Francois, 

Do you know where a first generation print of Darnell or Weigman is located?

 

Who gave you that idea ?
Wherever did I write that I knew where to locate first-generation copies of those films ?
To tell you the truth, I don't really care. I mean, I'd love to see those films in the highest quality possible, of course. But there is one thing that I already know for sure : you will never ever find a film showing Oswald on the steps of the TSBD at the time of the shooting, since he was precisely the guy doing the shooting, on the sixth floor.
Actually, it's very easy to understand.
But for some reason, conspiracy theorists prefer to bury their heads in the sand.
Go figure...

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26 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Let me remind everyone what Frazier told the Warren Commission in 1964 regarding the subject of "The Last Time Buell Wesley Frazier Saw Lee Harvey Oswald On November 22nd, 1963"....

JOSEPH A. BALL - When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?
BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER - You mean on the 22nd?
Mr. BALL - On the 22nd, that day.
Mr. FRAZIER - Somewhere between---it was after 10 and somewhere before noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.
Mr. BALL - That was the last time you saw him all day?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't talk to him again?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.

 

But isn't it on permanent record at the Sixth Floor Museum that he did later see Oswald?

There may be an answer as to his earlier repressed memory;

Freudian psychology suggests that psychogenic amnesia is an act of self-preservation, where the alternative might be overwhelming anxiety or even suicide. Unpleasant, unwanted or psychologically dangerous memories are repressed or blocked from entering the consciousness as a kind of subconscious self-censorship, but they remain in the unconscious.

Psychogenic amnesia, also known as functional amnesia or dissociative amnesia, is a disorder characterized by abnormal memory functioning in the absence of structural brain damage or a known neurobiological cause. It results from the effects of severe stress or psychological trauma

Such repressed memories may be recovered spontaneously, years or decades after the event

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